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Missing primarchs : A simpler than expected answer ?


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#26
Gaius Maximus

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it just seems implied to me.

 

another one i just spotted was in battle of the fang where the wolfpriest wyrmblade is talking about the wolves with the human kaerl that discovered his work and telling him the reasons for it. he says that the wolves had to be feared by the other legions as they were the executioners. he then said it was a role that they had been called to perform more than once.

now this is the 32nd millennium so it could be referring to the traitor legions, but it seems implied to me again that it means the 2 missing legions as the wolves were never called to officially execute another legion during the heresy


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#27
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IIRR, ADB had a bit of a Gav Thorpe moment in terms of slightly regretting what he said and the snowball effect that followed. I'm sure he's said on here more than once that it's just a malicious rumour propagated by a legion that didn't like the Ultramarines and that rumour was only uttered between members of that legion. There was no breaking of the fourth wall moment - the reader was reading a conversation, not narrative 'fact'.

 

If ADB had written something like '...contemplated smashing the pod thereby denying the Ultramarines a large swell of reinforcements as the II legion was absorbed into the XIII...' as narrative rather than dialogue then that could be taken as 'fact'.

 

Exactly. The fact it was dialogue (and the background already explained it's not true) seemed to be doubt enough. Even the guy suggesting it is saying it with an "Eh? Eh? We're all thinking it, right?" vibe. 

 

Ultimately, it's not anyone's responsibility what people choose to interpret as concrete. It's certainly a likely rumour that would be going around the Legions - which was the point of it: to show what the average man on the front lines, lost in ignorance, might think. If fans want to insist that's the Only Way, that's their call. I don't regret it, I'm just disappointed some folks see such little nuance in the lore. 

 

What I honestly find more amazing is that people believed the Space Wolves could just kill two other Legions, and that's "definitely" what happened to the Lost Legions, when we know categorically from the background and the fact that the fate of the Lost Legions will never, ever be revealed, that it's simply not true. If the fate will never be revealed, how then would we have just said "Oh, the Wolves did it, by the way."

 

That's the one I regret, though it wasn't my claim. That's the one that haunts us - the fact people ardently buy into that one, and now any time it's questioned, you'll always get a few Space Wolf fans laying siege to the posters who point out it's patently false.

 

Note: Please don't use this as "ADB hates the Wolves / ADB hates Space Wolf fans". I said "a few".


Edited by A D-B, 04 March 2013 - 10:03 AM.

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#28
Wade Garrett

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Not to mention the "Executioner" thing comes from one Wolf. Not Russ. Not the Emperor. Just Space Wolf #2456. But it's taken as gosphel.

Meanwhile, we've got Sahaal of the Night Lords thinking the Emperor OKed every horrible thing the VIII ever did, Argel Tal (pre Khur) thinks the Emperor is pleased with the way the XVII reshape the worlds they conquer, if these guys can be so wrong about the role of their Legions and the Emperor's opinion of them, why does Wolf Priest Can't Remember His Name get his belief treated as infallible writ of "Wolves is executioners. Wolves is bestest".
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#29
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2nd and 11th eradicated. 13th reinforced. 

 

2+11=13. It's so obvious. 

 

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Edited by Res Ipsa Loquitur, 04 March 2013 - 03:48 PM.

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#30
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Not to mention the "Executioner" thing comes from one Wolf. Not Russ. Not the Emperor. Just Space Wolf #2456. But it's taken as gosphel.

Meanwhile, we've got Sahaal of the Night Lords thinking the Emperor OKed every horrible thing the VIII ever did, Argel Tal (pre Khur) thinks the Emperor is pleased with the way the XVII reshape the worlds they conquer, if these guys can be so wrong about the role of their Legions and the Emperor's opinion of them, why does Wolf Priest Can't Remember His Name get his belief treated as infallible writ of "Wolves is executioners. Wolves is bestest".


I've said it a few times, but Space Wolf fandom is pretty much the biggest, therefore it gets a larger amount of the most, uh, 'ferocious' fans. Some of the arguments online here and on Heresy-Online have been almost disgustingly biased; and that's the problem with some fans and their favourites. It's by no means universal, but a vocal minority object to the very notion that, somehow, it's a crime that their favourite Legion are really just as good and just as flawed as all the others.

They get it into their heads that their Legionaries are plain "better/stronger" than other Legionaries; they believe unreliable narration and in-universe dialogue as objective fact and insist the Wolves did destroy the Lost Legions (when all evidence points to the contrary); and they rail against any presentation of their Legion that doesn't show them winning/dominating their opposition. That's dangerous bias. Yet you're left with people literally angry that they're being screwed over. I've had it argued at me that I'm doing "everything I can to stop the Wolves being Executioners", when I'm the one doing the most to reinforce it, with Betrayer's opening quote, and the events of the Night of the Wolf. I just can't pretend they killed the Lost Legions, because... they didn't. It's an in-universe possibility, but as readers, we know they didn't, both because it doesn't really make much sense (why the Wolves? Really?) and because if the fate of the Lost Legions is never going to be revealed, no one would've said "The Wolves killed them"... as that's revealing it.

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do. Because as brave as it is, they'll be eviscerated on forums. I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

And I still see the occasional post saying "ADB hates Space Wolves" (...I play Space Wolves), or that "ADB made Angron beat Russ because it's a Chaos book." As if it's that shallow. Or that wholly devoid of integrity.

Part of it is that these books are read by people of all ages, and younger readers will often steer towards what's just on the surface, or show greater bias to their favourite armies. Part of it is that some people prefer things explained in textbook detail, like a codex, while inference or narration isn't their preferred way of seeing the setting. I don't judge either negatively. But even so, one day that moment will come, and I'll pray to various pantheons for that author's soul.

A lot of this comes down to so much being revealed in prose (and reviews... and therefore, in hearsay) rather than traditional codex blurbs. People take a single character's in-universe perspective as "The author thinks X" and "This means [Legion Name Here] is really Y."

Edited by A D-B, 04 March 2013 - 04:03 PM.

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#31
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I don't think the Wolves could have the manpower/awesomeness to wipe out 2 other Legions. They had some trouble taking on the Thousand Sons who were not supported by Magnus or their fleet.

 

 

 

 

But just to play Devils Advocate... Does give a potential reason why the Space Wolves Legion was smaller than the other Legions. They never recovered from wiping out the 2nd and 11th Legions.

 

 

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#32
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Strictly opinion here, but I've always found the great rule of storytelling to be "No joy without pain, no victory without sacrifice."

Saying that faction X or character Y has to win all the time lest you unleash THE DREADED ALL CAPS HATE POST doesn't make you a fan of X or Y..it makes you a fan of TERRIBLE STORIES, right up there with people who whine about Gandalf not having the Eagles fly Frodo to Mount Doom in the first book of Lord of the Rings.

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#33
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Well didn't the  "executioner theory" come up from Dan Abnett?

 

Also, IIRC there was a banter about "Which legion is the most badass?" between Luna Wolves in the first book. One says "Space Wolves are the best", another one protest him by saying "but they are imba, so they don't count".


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#34
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IIRC there was a banter about "Which legion is the most badass?" between Luna Wolves in the first book. One says "Space Wolves are the best", another one protest him by saying "but they are imba, so they don't count".

Sigismund replied. ‘Are we going to scrap about it now? Argue which Legion is toughest?’
‘The answer, always, is the Wolves of Fenris,’ Torgaddon put in, ‘because they are clinically insane.’
 


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#35
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Well didn't the  "executioner theory" come up from Dan Abnett?

 

Also, IIRC there was a banter about "Which legion is the most badass?" between Luna Wolves in the first book. One says "Space Wolves are the best", another one protest him by saying "but they are imba, so they don't count".

 

Dude.

 

 

 

Not to mention the "Executioner" thing comes from one Wolf. Not Russ. Not the Emperor. Just Space Wolf #2456. But it's taken as gosphel.

Meanwhile, we've got Sahaal of the Night Lords thinking the Emperor OKed every horrible thing the VIII ever did, Argel Tal (pre Khur) thinks the Emperor is pleased with the way the XVII reshape the worlds they conquer, if these guys can be so wrong about the role of their Legions and the Emperor's opinion of them, why does Wolf Priest Can't Remember His Name get his belief treated as infallible writ of "Wolves is executioners. Wolves is bestest".


They get it into their heads that their Legionaries are plain "better/stronger" than other Legionaries; they believe unreliable narration and in-universe dialogue as objective fact 

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#36
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@A D-B

 

I gave this dialogue as another example of executioner / overpowered SW stuff. I am aware of the fact that this is just a speculation. 

 

It is normal that fans jump to slightest rumour. Missing primarchs has been the most attractive topic alongside with "What will happen if the Emperor Dies?". Even before the releasing of HH series, I remember never ending discussions about the missing sons.


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Before the eleven legions they stood. Holding up his sword, Horus said to the Emperor: My hands hold your death, my lord! The Emperor answered: Son, it is your death they hold.


#37
A D-B

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@A D-B

 

I gave this dialogue as another example of executioner / overpowered SW stuff. I am aware of the fact that this is just a speculation. 

 

It is normal that fans jump to slightest rumour. Missing primarchs has been the most attractive topic alongside with "What will happen if the Emperor Dies?". Even before the releasing of HH series, I remember never ending discussions about the missing sons.

 

Ugh. Up before 9am. A new low.

 

Sorry, Legionator, I was typing during Warsong Gulch resurrections (don't ask) and totally missed your actual tone. 

 

Also, you live in Ankara, right? Have you been to the Momumentum Ancyranum? I'm wondering how large the site is / how much remains, up close and personal. I'd quite like to steal a quick visit to it, but a lot depends on just how much is still standing.


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#38
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Augustus' script well preserved but the temple is in ruins. Turkish people aren't known to be diligent with Anatolian history before Ottoman Seljuk era.



#39
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Shame on me but I haven't been to the Monumentum Ancyranum. I was intented to go but a friend of mine told me that it is in a very bad condition. Billuriye is right, we don't preserve historical artifact properly if it doesn't make money or has a religious value.


BLOOD FOR THE EMPEROR, SKULLS FOR THE GOLDEN THRONE!

 

Before the eleven legions they stood. Holding up his sword, Horus said to the Emperor: My hands hold your death, my lord! The Emperor answered: Son, it is your death they hold.


#40
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I dunno. I really want BL to reveal what happened. It is my personality. Even with movies or books spoilers do not affect me at all. I have such a poor memory when I am caught up reading or watching that when I skipped ahead and read that Dumbledore died, I forgot it by the time I actually got to it. For me its all about knowing. Maybe that's why I am a historian. Must. Know. Everything. ....even fictional universes.

 

That said, I think I could be disappointed at whatever narrative they choose to tell. I’m poopy.


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#41
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Back when it was just 40k, the missing legions and their missing records were just part of the misty backstory. Now 30k is front and centre, it becomes an issue and dare I say it a bit of a plot hole.

 

Anyway, in case you haven't seen it yet, here is another theory...

 

http://www.wobblymod...m/comic-18.html


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#42
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I haven't read any of the HH books, so correct me if I'm wrong....But is it actually written anywhere that the lost primarchs actually took control of their legions? They, like the others, were thrown into the Warp. I've read in other fluff that some had their capsule protections compromised while in the warp. Is it possible that the lost primarchs were corrupted before the Emperor got to them and he had them killed (either himself or, perhaps as hinted in the quotes everyone has, maybe Russ or another Primarch)? It could also explain why the UM are said to have swelled around the time of the legions being lost.

 

This is just a thought that's been bouncing around my head for awhile, with all the lost legion threads around.


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#43
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My personal belief is that at least one of the missing Primarchs grew up to be Space Gandhi, as Guilliman was Space Caesar, Angron was Space Spartacus, and so on, and the Emperor met with him, talked about the whole pacifism thing, then said "Welp, can't use you in the Crusade." And virus bombed the whole planet from orbit.
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#44
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I dunno. Does the Emperor have any Ghandi in him? The other primarchs are reflections of the Emperor and parts of his personality. I can see it more like there was a Space Hitler and the Emperor said oh no simmer down. And he went all Eradicate everything including Navigators, Psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and whatnot. 


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"...I firmly believe that any man's finest hours - his greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear - is that moment when he has worked his heart out in good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious." Vince Lombardi

 

"But Horus has nothing to do with that, and he's always lost the war, since the Emperor kicks his butt and the Traitor Legions cheese it to the Eye, like headless goobers." - Aaron Dembski-Bowden


#45
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One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

 

I've always been interested in the events from the last C:CSM about The Wolf of Fenris. The Space Wolves are presented with their overabundance of hyperbole concerning their loyalty and fierceness, but here we have the Red Corsairs so demoralising a group of them that in the middle of repelling a ship boarding they murder their own brothers and throw themselves at Huron's feet. I think those dudes would be really interesting to read about, not because I am not a SW fan, but more because of the immediacy and completeness of their fall. I imagine that they did some really crazy stuff for the Red Corsairs following their conversion.


Edited by -Max-, 07 March 2013 - 09:57 AM.

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#46
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I dunno. Does the Emperor have any Ghandi in him? The other primarchs are reflections of the Emperor and parts of his personality. I can see it more like there was a Space Hitler and the Emperor said oh no simmer down. And he went all Eradicate everything including Navigators, Psykers, Ogryns, Ratlings, and whatnot. 

 

I imagine his vision of a secular, progressive, open society ( like what the remembrancers symbolise to me) that would follow the Great Crusade, where humanity is no longer beholden to using the warp to travel and is protected from its foes by distance and their extinction means that there is a possibility he had a son (or two) who didn't embrace war as openly as the others.

 

A counter theory : The II and XI primarches were excluded from the Great Crusade, so as to act as consuls once the Imperium had finished with the Great Crusade. 90% of the Primarchs go and win the huge wars, the other 10% are involved in its governance afterwards, unsullied by prideful connections from conquering the galaxy and the possibility of death or ruination (Angron, Konrad) during these endeavors. 


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#47
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One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

 

I've always been interested in the events from the last C:CSM about The Wolf of Fenris. The Space Wolves are presented with their overabundance of hyperbole concerning their loyalty and fierceness, but here we have the Red Corsairs so demoralising a group of them that in the middle of repelling a ship boarding they murder their own brothers and throw themselves at Huron's feet. I think those dudes would be really interesting to read about, not because I am not a SW fan, but more because of the immediacy and completeness of their fall. I imagine that they did some really crazy stuff for the Red Corsairs following their conversion.

A SW fan friend of mine once said "We didn't give geneseed to anyone who is afraid of death" about the Wolf of Fenris incident and he still doesn't accept it. I think he is a bit right, tWoF is inconsistent with fluff. They are Space Wolves, not some rookie Imperial Guard soldier.


BLOOD FOR THE EMPEROR, SKULLS FOR THE GOLDEN THRONE!

 

Before the eleven legions they stood. Holding up his sword, Horus said to the Emperor: My hands hold your death, my lord! The Emperor answered: Son, it is your death they hold.


#48
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One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

 

I've always been interested in the events from the last C:CSM about The Wolf of Fenris. The Space Wolves are presented with their overabundance of hyperbole concerning their loyalty and fierceness, but here we have the Red Corsairs so demoralising a group of them that in the middle of repelling a ship boarding they murder their own brothers and throw themselves at Huron's feet. I think those dudes would be really interesting to read about, not because I am not a SW fan, but more because of the immediacy and completeness of their fall. I imagine that they did some really crazy stuff for the Red Corsairs following their conversion.

A SW fan friend of mine once said "We didn't give geneseed to anyone who is afraid of death" about the Wolf of Fenris incident and he still doesn't accept it. I think he is a bit right, tWoF is inconsistent with fluff. They are Space Wolves, not some rookie Imperial Guard soldier.

 

Like I said, this is why I think they're an interesting case. The situation would have to be extreme for this to happen, and I would love to read a good writer taking this situation in hand and showing us that extreme situation in an entertaining way. If it was done right it wouldn't be inconsistent with fluff at all because 1. it canonically happened, it's acknowledged in their own codex even; 2. if you think about the number of Space Marines who have rejected their oaths and what loyalist chapters have to do to constantly ensure purity, then it begins to look like Space Marines in general are actually predisposed to eventual disloyalty.

 

Also, does your friend know about Skyrar's Dark Wolves? What their mere existence implies might break his heart...


The Iron Hounds (CSM) project log here & IA here. | Our Martyred Lady (SoB) project log here  | Lamenters (BA) WIP thread here.

Index of Inspiration Friday entries here.

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"Three times faster than the usual Warsmith."


#49
Legionator

Legionator

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One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

 

I've always been interested in the events from the last C:CSM about The Wolf of Fenris. The Space Wolves are presented with their overabundance of hyperbole concerning their loyalty and fierceness, but here we have the Red Corsairs so demoralising a group of them that in the middle of repelling a ship boarding they murder their own brothers and throw themselves at Huron's feet. I think those dudes would be really interesting to read about, not because I am not a SW fan, but more because of the immediacy and completeness of their fall. I imagine that they did some really crazy stuff for the Red Corsairs following their conversion.

A SW fan friend of mine once said "We didn't give geneseed to anyone who is afraid of death" about the Wolf of Fenris incident and he still doesn't accept it. I think he is a bit right, tWoF is inconsistent with fluff. They are Space Wolves, not some rookie Imperial Guard soldier.

 

Like I said, this is why I think they're an interesting case. The situation would have to be extreme for this to happen, and I would love to read a good writer taking this situation in hand and showing us that extreme situation in an entertaining way. If it was done right it wouldn't be inconsistent with fluff at all because 1. it canonically happened, it's acknowledged in their own codex even; 2. if you think about the number of Space Marines who have rejected their oaths and what loyalist chapters have to do to constantly ensure purity, then it begins to look like Space Marines in general are actually predisposed to eventual disloyalty.

 

Also, does your friend know about Skyrar's Dark Wolves? What their mere existence implies might break his heart...

 

He doesn't accept Skyrar's Dark Wolves either. He is a fanatic SW, I heard he howls after drinking beer. I am not that extreme, a Space Wolf or an Imperial Fist can turn traitor, but it should be in a realistic way. Thinking about  Space Wolves begging "Oh great tyrant, show mercy upon us!" is a bit queer.


BLOOD FOR THE EMPEROR, SKULLS FOR THE GOLDEN THRONE!

 

Before the eleven legions they stood. Holding up his sword, Horus said to the Emperor: My hands hold your death, my lord! The Emperor answered: Son, it is your death they hold.


#50
Wade Garrett

Wade Garrett

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Does the Emperor have any Ghandi in him? The other primarchs are reflections of the Emperor and parts of his personality. 


It always surprised me that everyone embraced this idea, given it was first stated by First Captain Kor Phereon, who isn't exactly what I'd call a paragon of truth and knowledge.

"Better to die having exhausted one's strength than to fail without ever reaching your limits."

Perturabo, Primarch of the IV Legion "Warriors of Iron".





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