++2014 Community IA Creation Project++ COMPLETE!

[Octavulg]

The thing is, Curses usually work. They do what they set out to do. Until the moronic retcon in C:BA, the Lamenters worked. The Sons of Antaeus worked. The Minotaurs work. And so on. They just come with consequences, often horrific ones.

I don't really like Firepower's idea, to be honest. Pacify => slavering monster isn't surprising (among other things, it reminds me of the Raven Guard), and there's already a lot of chapters with slavering monsters. It's very predictable, and kind of my default impression of a Cursed Founding chapter -> attempt to improve leads to horrific monsters.

Plus, it's basically the Blood Angels. And one of them is more than enough.

Sorry. I just really, really don't like it. 40K has far, far, far, more than enough "OMG rage and killing things and loss of control" chapters. There's so many other neat things to do with the Cursed Founding - it'd be nice if we didn't have to go "slavering monsters with no self-control".

EDIT: Also, isn't losing control and going all Wulfeny what everyone assumes happens to the Wolf Brothers? We should probably try to avoid another iteration of that.

[Olis]

Perhaps toning down the whole "slavering monsters" might assuage your concerns?

[Firepower]

Actually it is a pretty fair point. I even had to point out a way to make it a wee bit different from the black rage.

 

But let us look at other consequences of cursed foundings and list them out. The lamenter's had atrocious luck...who else?

[Olis]

Let's see...

 

The Black Dragons  are 21st founding - they're the ones with bone blades coming out of their elbows and have bone crests on their heads. The Fire Hawks are also 21st, and they became the Legion of the Damned. There's the Flame Falcons who were covered in flames (I'm thinking of ghost rider-esque flames, personally) and were set upon by the Inquisition. Also there's the Sons of Antaeus who have supposedly super-strong bones and the Blood Gorgons who became traitors, iirc.

[Firepower]

Actually, second idea. This is one I had on the back burner a while. Skin gradually turning to stone. Could be living stone, in which case no big deal. Could be stone but flexible, so numb but hands/legs still work. Could be solid stone, in which case they either amputate or use their hands as clubs.

 

My point is that messing with the canis helix doesn't necessarily mean the curse has to be totally linear from that. The curse can very well just be an unexpected side effect of messing with gene seed.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

As for a name, what about the Sol Hounds? It would serve as a hint to Terra, while still retaining all the usual relations with the Space Wolves. Especially in simple spoken word, it sounds the same as Soul Hounds which is a bit more menacing - and if we consider that they might turn renegade then perhaps Soul Hounds might be a more interesting way to go anyway.

 

I'm not too sure about what their curse could be, but I think it might be better if we leave their fate unknown. The Chapter homeworld is sealed by a warp storm and only sparse messages rarely escape the storm to inform the Imperium of what's happened, and they talk of a civil war that has gripped the Chapter and the Planet. The loyalists were known to be suffering heavy casualties and were on the defensive when the last message was recieved - a few centuries previous, and no message has since been found. However, the warp storms are just beginning to dissipate and a task force has been assembled to intervene in the conflict. (Perhaps the task force could include some DIY Chapters of contributors as a 'signature')

[Messor]

Actually, second idea. This is one I had on the back burner a while. Skin gradually turning to stone. Could be living stone, in which case no big deal. Could be stone but flexible, so numb but hands/legs still work. Could be solid stone, in which case they either amputate or use their hands as clubs.

 

My point is that messing with the canis helix doesn't necessarily mean the curse has to be totally linear from that. The curse can very well just be an unexpected side effect of messing with gene seed.

Is that based on your idea for a Chapter akin to Weeping Angels? XD

 

I was really intrigued by Ferrata's idea. I'm not 100% sure about the pacifist part, but something along those lines. A somewhat flawed, but functioning control over the savagery of that gene-seed, which eventually degrades marines into uselessness.

[Firepower]

Actually it was for a chapter I planned to call Gargoyles...which I suppose is pretty close to that. But I have something much more esoteric (and likely lore breaking) in mind for that crossover

Edit- Sorry for multipost. Something exploded.

[Aqui]

And in regards to a curse, it'll be up to the community to make one.

My question was a subtle hint that the Curse is at the core of any Cursed Founding chapter, and so it should be the first or second thing you work out.

Ferrata's assessment of the thought process of Cursed Founding is right. The major unique factor of the Wolves' geneseed is the Canis Helix - it makes sense for it to be messing with that to some extent. The question is what they'd be after. Stablizing and limiting it could be one thing, but where's the fun in that?

Things they could try for, off the top of my head:

Regularizing the whole Wulfen process - they maintain their mental faculties while still having the massive werewolfiness. Or making them able to call upon it at will.

Grafting the benefits of some other animal into it - were-lizards are fun.

Using the Canis Helix to bring abhumans closer to human norms as Space Marines. Though Sanguinius' geneseed might work better for that. Curse ends up basically not working, and abhuman traits reassert themselves.

One could also do something with the whole "acute senses" thing - enhancing even the Space Wolves' superhuman abilities. Then have them fall to Slaanesh, of course.

Remember - the curse can be a pretty good thing that just comes with misfortune and terrible geneseed stability.

Perhaps then, in the effort to "control" the Canis Helix, the result was that the process slowly, but surely, removes* the Helix altogether (albeit over generations). The successor eventually realise that their very heritage is denied to them because of the manipulation. The Chapter seeks to find a way to get the Helix back, and one of the Rune Priests get a vision (perhaps actually from Russ, or someone they think is Russ). In the vision, the Chapter are severely rebuked at rejecting their heritage (even if it was the Gene-hackers who denied it them, not they themselves), and are offered a chance at redemption. [insert quest for said redemption]

*When I say the Helix is removed, I mean that the genetic "markers" remain, but the...effects are null and void. No Space Wolf style enhanced senses, no Wulfen, no elongated fangs, no yellow eyes - nothing, effectively making them no different from any other "Typical" Chapter.

Any good?

[Messor]

A very interesting idea and a compelling premise for a loyalist Chapter.

[Firepower]

Doesn't sound like a particularly harsh curse...

 

Not that it has to be, I suppose.

[Aqui]

A very interesting idea and a compelling premise for a loyalist Chapter.

 

If done well, it could also be used for a Traitor Chapter too.  Perhaps after a few hundred years, the Chapter despairs, knowing that the quest has failed.  They instead try to cope with their loss, but the Chapter finds something else that allows them to regain a portion of what they lost, but the cost is great.  Very great.

 

Or like the Blood Angels/Lamenters, they journey to Fenris to beseech their parent Chapter for help.  Rather than welcome them with open arms, the Space Wolves  reject them, as in their eyes, they have betrayed Russ, and not worthy of their help.  Bitterness turns to anger and other options are presented to them.

 

 

    Doesn't sound like a particularly harsh curse...

    Not that it has to be, I suppose.

 

 

I suppose not, but for a Space Wolf their senses are everything.  It's not just an additional tool for them to use, but it's a physical link to their Primarch.  Losing that would be horrifying to them.

[Hrvat]

The feasting thing could be given a different heading.

The senses are even more refined than those of SW but at the same time the metabolism is quicker recquiering near continious consumtion. As the marine ages the quicker the metabolism becoming eventually turning into a kind of wasting sickness and turning a marine into a bed ridden wreck doomed to die not fulufilling his duty. Add to that the "viking" culture of the SW with a need to die on the field of battle and we could get a psyhologicaly very conflicted chapter. On one hand they would like to die a death worthy of rememberance and are more prone to taking chances on the field of battle knowning what is in store for them as they age, at the same time they would be driven by their training and codex doctrines to put aside indvidual wishes and perform to their best abilities for as long as possible in the defence of humanity risking a death in the apothecarion rather than on the field of battle. To add to the drama once a marine passess a certain age the hyper-hyper metabolism can kick in at any time rending the planing of their future moot since they will never know at the end of each mission if they will be lucky enough to see the next deployment.


As far as the name is concerned I will do some brainstorming and report later.

[Lysimachus]

Just to throw an idea in, how about a mental curse, not physical? Maybe something like a form of paranoia that gets worse as the Marine ages, making him unwilling to trust even his closest battle brothers? As a brother gets older, he becomes more and more insular (like the SW wolf scouts), until at some point he snaps and turns on his former comrades and has to be hunted down like an animal. All the brothers know that eventually they will also turn and will be hunted by their brothers. Would make the Chapter's curse that no-one really trusts each other, a polar opposite of the Astartes nature and the SW loyal pack structure in particular.

 

Would also make for interesting characters of those few older brothers who turn but manage to get away from the Chapter, maybe ending up as renegades, mercenaries or full fledged traitors.

[Firepower]

The feasting thing could be given a different heading.

 

The senses are even more refined than those of SW but at the same time the metabolism is quicker recquiering near continious consumtion. As the marine ages the quicker the metabolism becoming eventually turning into a kind of wasting sickness and turning a marine into a bed ridden wreck doomed to die not fulufilling his duty. Add to that the "viking" culture of the SW with a need to die on the field of battle and we could get a psyhologicaly very conflicted chapter. On one hand they would like to die a death worthy of rememberance and are more prone to taking chances on the field of battle knowning what is in store for them as they age, at the same time they would be driven by their training and codex doctrines to put aside indvidual wishes and perform to their best abilities for as long as possible in the defence of humanity risking a death in the apothecarion rather than on the field of battle. To add to the drama once a marine passess a certain age the hyper-hyper metabolism can kick in at any time rending the planing of their future moot since they will never know at the end of each mission if they will be lucky enough to see the next deployment.

 

 

As far as the name is concerned I will do some brainstorming and report later.

 

Hm, good point.  Just because they get real hungry doesn't mean they have to go all Black Ragey.

 

Heightened metabolism could lead to wasting away as the Marine ages, like you said.

 

It could also force the Chapter to only deploy in short, rapid insertion and extraction missions, else they be forced to eat what little edible material there is on the battlefield.  And if there's nothign to eat, the options are noble suicide or eating something (or rather someone) they shouldn't.  Being proper Russians (get it?  Russ-ians), they would of course choose noble suicide.

 

That sort of tactical limitation would certainly grate on the nerves.  Partly because of the revelry of combat, and partly because of the restraint it would put on their effectiveness.

[Octavulg]

Completely eliminating the Canis Helix would seem the sort of thing that would be more easily fixed with more Ultramarines.

To expand on my senses idea: you have a chapter with better than average senses, which continue improving as they age (eventually becoming so sensitive the Marines go insane or catatonic through overstimulation). They're good hunters, and (like Ludovic suggests) very brave when the odds are with them. A wolf pack in a more cynical sense, basically.

In any case, they come to some Hive World where the Governor is concerned with rebellion (and he should know, since he's organizing it). He invites the Captains to a feast in his palace, where the deadly wiles of Slaanesh combined with their heightened senses make them easy conquests. They're the vanguard of the rebellion, though they flee when confronted by...some chapter. Some IF successor has the right feel, IMO.

They could trade their blood to other Slaaneshi covens, since their extremely capable senses provide new sensations even to jaded long-time worshippers (remember, Space Marines can experience by eating).

[Aqui]

Completely eliminating the Canis Helix would seem the sort of thing that would be more easily fixed with more Ultramarines.

To expand on my senses idea: you have a chapter with better than average senses, which continue improving as they age (eventually becoming so sensitive the Marines go insane or catatonic through overstimulation). They're good hunters, and (like Ludovic suggests) very brave when the odds are with them. A wolf pack in a more cynical sense, basically.

In any case, they come to some Hive World where the Governor is concerned with rebellion (and he should know, since he's organizing it). He invites the Captains to a feast in his palace, where the deadly wiles of Slaanesh combined with their heightened senses make them easy conquests. They're the vanguard of the rebellion, though they flee when confronted by...some chapter. Some IF successor has the right feel, IMO.

They could trade their blood to other Slaaneshi covens, since their extremely capable senses provide new sensations even to jaded long-time worshippers (remember, Space Marines can experience by eating).

My point is that the task of stabilising the Canis Helix resulted in it simply "not working" or doesn't work as well as it should, the way it does for the Space Wolves proper. It's there, but it doesn't manifest itself the way it "should" ergo the Chapter are horrified. Perhaps in this case, the Chapter feels that Russ is "punishing" them because they don't/can't embrace the Canis Helix. Then a Rune priest gets a vision, one that might allow them to regain what they have lost. Then things go really awry...

Good idea about the Slaaneshi covens though ^_^

[Excubitor]

This brings to mind an old WD article where someone used the SW background to make a renegade Great Company. On the Warband leader the Canis Helix combined with his mark of the wulfen to gradually turn him into a giant Wulfen, while he still kept his mind.

 

What I'm basically suggesting is a slight modification to what the Canis Helix changes. Instead of growing longer hair and canines, it enhances the curse of the Wulfen and the older the marine gets the more wolf-like they become.

[Marquise]

Let me first say that I love this whole concept of a SW Cursed Founding Chapter.

 

My thoughts on this would be that any initial tampering with the Canis Helix would eventually lead to the Wulfen aspect being more prounced through out the Chapter, as well as a higher berserker tendency. All of that could possibly lead the Chapter to embrace Khorne.

 

Me being new to the forums, this topic is causing me some confusion though. Regardless of what is done to the Canis Helix, as well as the Chapter theoretically not knowing their gene-seed past, eventually the Curse would betray their SW origins. Wouldn't that go against the "don'ts" of the IA guidelines?

[Messor]

Aye, but this force is aimed at overcoming the dont's of generally accepted Liber material, taking a taboo, and doing it well.

[Marquise]

I think I'm going to politely bow out of this discussion for the moment cuz I need to get some clarification on some points. So rather than derail things here, I'll open a new thread (which I assume should be done in this section of the forums since it concer ns DIY Chapters and such).

[Marquise]

if we go with a metabalism based curse, a susjestable name might be Sons of Sköll. In Norse mythology Sköll is the wolf son of Fenrir who chases the horses that draw the chariot that contains Sol (sun) through the sky each day, attempting to eat her (Sol). Sköll means "Treachery" in Old Norse.

[Octavulg]

I like that.

[Firepower]

Ditto.  Solid!

[Olis]

Sounds like we might very well have our name sorted. :)

 

So, in simple terms, the Chapter is Cursed Founding, with a metabolism based curse, called the Sons of Sköll. 

 

Any objections?