Daemons.... a shift in the GK paradigm (?)

[Rayray]

What is skewing 40k is GW needing to decide once and for all wether to have "uber" dexes or "balanced" dexes.

[Iron Sage]

What is skewing 40k is GW needing to decide once and for all wether to have "uber" dexes or "balanced" dexes.

And it seems like they have. So far 6ed dexes are comparable in power lv. Now, we only have to wait for them to release new codexes for the horrible  OP (power creep was awful, and Grey Knights is one of the worst) 5ed codices. And yes, the Grey Knights codex is is dire need of an "update". Frankly, the same is true for most works polluted by Mat Ward when I come to think of it.

 

As for the daemon dex. While it is not "OP powerful" like you guys seem to like here (no surprise, as you probably play Grey Knights for a reason I guess), it is certainly a better codex as it is a million times more balanced to say the least...

[Nehekhare]

I feel obliged to add that I play a coteaz/henchmen/psyfledread army for fluff reasons (admech) ;)

[Rayray]

I feel obliged to add that I play a coteaz/henchmen/psyfledread army for fluff reasons (admech)

I'm absolutely certain you're just a beer and peanuts player...

[DAwarrior43]

I think a lot of you are wrong in saying its a bad codex. It's just a different meta you will see come from it. Expect to see a lot of troops and fast hard hitting units. Slaanesh is going to at the top of this book with big blocks of troops with heralds that turn them into killing machines. A lot of the old stuff was nerfed but a lot of things got better. But I would be far from crying doom and gloom on this codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

What is skewing 40k is GW needing to decide once and for all wether to have "uber" dexes or "balanced" dexes.

 

Please, you'd have to try *really* hard to convince anyone the new Dameon dex is balanced...

 

I shudder to think what will happen to 40k if any more new dexes are released that look anything like the Daemon dex.

 

Edit: Random upon Random equals both FUN and Balanced! 

 

 

Expect to see a lot of troops

 

Why?

 

The best things in the dex are Greater Daemons and Soulgrinders.

 

The troops are squishy and impotent.

 

 

no surprise, as you probably play Grey Knights for a reason I guess

 

Carry on tarnishing the entire sub forum.  The vast majority of us were here, playing GK, with the old Dameonhunters Dex.

 

Probably the worst dex in the entire life of 40k.

 

But we all some kind of baby seal clubbing powergamers.

 

/golfclap

[Nehekhare]

 the old Dameonhunters Dex.

 

Probably the worst dex in the entire life of 40k.

don't give up hope yet! ;D

[Gentlemanloser]

As for 'balanced', just try to compare some Daemon units to others.

 

The GUO for Belial, for example.  IIRC (again no books at work) they both cost 190 points.  Now compare stat lines.

 

One of those screams 'ZOMG OP POWER CREEP' to me.

 

 

Or Skarbrand.  225 points gets you;

 

WS10 BS10 S6 T6 W5 I10 A6 Ld9 Save 3+

 

With AP2 Fleshbane/Armourbane wepaons.  With Hatred and Rage.

 

Really?  Compare that to Marneus (another Ward creation) or even Draigo.

 

Cheaper than the almighty Draigo and look at that statline.

 

 

Or even the Skulltaker.  A measly 100 points gets you;

 

WS9 BS9 S5 T4 W2 I9 A4 Ld8 Save 3+

 

With ID on a 6, EW.

 

What imperial unit has a statline to compare, for 100 points?

 

Balanced?  No. And I don't get how anyone could try to claim that with a straight face.

 

 

Some armies will have no hope facing units with those statlines, while others will roll over them.  That's not 'balance'.

[DAwarrior43]

Big blocks of 20 daemonettes with a herald buffing them with ap2 at initiative attacks along with other things. Also you will have to first deal with their distraction units like fiends or khorne dogs. I'm not saying their troops are the best I just think you will see the horde meta continue from this codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

T3 aren't they?  With a 5++ Save.  I expect them to be Templated just like you would Cultist/IG blobs.

 

/shrug

[DAwarrior43]

But first you have to deal with the things that will be in your face turn 1. But everyone claims OP or the dex got nerfed right off the bat. Give it time and people will find the silly combos that will make people scream cheese. Just like the power the subtracts 5 initiative from your statline.

[Blood Shadow]

 

 

i dont think anyone but the Emperor should be totally immune to the lure of chaos

Well, considering he is being corrupted in the warp too...

He is? where does it say this?

[Morollan]

T3 aren't they?  With a 5++ Save.  I expect them to be Templated just like you would Cultist/IG blobs.

 

/shrug

 

Cos Grey Knights bring a lot of template weapons in an all-comers list...

[Blood Shadow]

T3 works for eldar and dark eldar so why not daemons? yes there are no transports but they can deep strike and there should be enough threats on the board by the time they arrive to take some of the heat off them, plus daemonettes are fast moving. it might take a while to learn how to use them effectively but i hardly think they will die as soon as the game starts or they arrive on the board

[IndigoJack]

The thing about daemon troops is that they're dirt cheap compared to last codex (6 20man squads for most choices is about 1080). You can buy lots of them and still have room for plenty of monstrous creatures. Daemons of nurgle are going to be a pain to kill with shrouding.

[Vesper]

 

 

 

 

 

i dont think anyone but the Emperor should be totally immune to the lure of chaos

Well, considering he is being corrupted in the warp too...

He is? where does it say this?

Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, page 185.

Even the Golden Throne cannot keep the cells of the Emperor's dead body alive forever. Over the millennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind, sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear.

It is impossible to say for how long the Emperor can survive in this condition. It is unlikely that even he really knows how much time is left to him before the tenuous hold upon his physical body is broken by weakness or finally rent apart by insanity.

[DAwarrior43]

The thing about daemon troops is that they're dirt cheap compared to last codex (6 20man squads for most choices is about 1080). You can buy lots of them and still have room for plenty of monstrous creatures. Daemons of nurgle are going to be a pain to kill with shrouding.

My point exactly. They are more survivable than guard to hell drakes and other things that ignore armor and cover. There will be so many things to kill it will be tough to prioritize. Fast moving armies like that are tough to deal with.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cos Grey Knights bring a lot of template weapons in an all-comers list...

You're not taking three NDKs with H Incinerators?

How are you killing the 50 man 4++ IG Blobs?

T3 works for eldar and dark eldar

LoL it doesn't.

[Blood Shadow]

@ Vesper i haven't seen that before

[DAwarrior43]

 

 

 

Cos Grey Knights bring a lot of template weapons in an all-comers list...

You're not taking three NDKs with H Incinerators?

 

How are you killing the 50 man 4++ IG

A smart IG player will still minimize the wounds taken from flamer templates. Being a GK player myself 120 troop models to kill plus some greater daemons would still be hard to deal with. I think your selling that fact short.

 

Edit: plus your still assuming all the dread knights get there intact! ;) I know with my blob things like that die first!

[Inquisitor Fox]

The best way to deal with a 50+ man IG blob is just like the best way to deal with a unit of Dwarven Ironbreakers...

Leave it stranded in a corner holding a table quarter Granted if you have some say in where objective markers are placed this becomes a little easier, but you don't have to kill everything to win the game. Just get more objectives than your opponent.

I fully expect that Daemons will figure out how to make their Codex work. Personally I've never really worried that much about Book X being so much better than Book Y. I played Sisters and the Inquisition since I started ten years ago in one form or another, and heaven knows we did okay by one way or another. As much or more is finding the army, playstyle and tactics that work for you. Some armies work for a particular mindset that don't match up with everyone. You find the right players though, and they make the models sing and dance. It's a glorious thing to watch.

[Vesper]

The thing is, when you have to "figure how it works", it pretty much means that Daemons will end up with a list to rule them all.

We already know that some units will never take the board considering how bad they are.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I disagree.  There's always multiple options and ways to do things.  Just because the "collected 1nt3rw3bz" in their infinite wisdom decide that there is only one valid choice for each Force Org slot and therefore just one list does not mean that other lists do not work.  In fact, most of those lists also don't work for the majority of players.  If a new player wants to be the 40k equivalent of a button masher I suppose they can get some wisdom from those lists, but that isn't really playing to their own strengths.

 

There are multiple playstyles, in truth one for each individual, but we can say there are a few common types.  Aggresive, defensive, reactive.  Some prefer deep striking audacity, some mechanized advances, some a horde of ground pounders running across the table screaming "You can't kill all 200 of us in 6 turns!" ;)

 

I mean seriously... take a Guard book, use nothing but Infantry Platoons and a Command squad.  Take heavy weapon teams and special weapon teams for your anti-armor, take nothing but lasguns on everything else.  Dare them to kill your entire army.  That's not a list the internet talks about, it certainly isn't "mobile vendettas with melta armed vets" but I almost guarentee you it'd work.  This is just one example of there not being "one master list."

 

I could do the same thing with Eldar, take hordes of guardians, back them up with support weapons and maybe a jetbike squad or two.  Add a Farseer and his court.  Spray paint them black, add white facemasks, walk forward.  Not a "master list" but should be remarkably effective.

 

There are always more ways to play than one or two "pre-fab" lists.  A pre-fab may work for someone just starting, but they'll quickly decide they would rather trade Unit X for Unit Y because they want to add a little more speed, or firepower, or their opponents have a lot of ____ that's always killing them, etc.  They're a template, not an inmutable fact of existance.

 

Daemon players will figure out what works for their own styles and preferences and still be able to play.  Maybe it won't be a Codex for min-maxing, but that doesn't make it invalid or horrible.  Just because it's not your own cup of tea doesn't mean that there aren't people who match it perfectly and don't see a problem.

[spartan249]

Nurgle seems to me to be quite solid alongside Greater Daemons and their ilk.

 

Now that Plaguebearers are freakin shrouded, they can have blocks for holding one or two objectives and fill in the rest with Fixer units. Sure, stuff will be able to kill Plaguebearers, but I'm betting that most stuff will be stuck a while dealing with them. Since they're so freakin cheap, you can spend the rest of the points in Greater Daemons & Soul Grinders as the Cleaners.

 

Honestly speaking, I don't think Daemons will be that much of a pushover. In the right hands, they're going to be a meta breaker by my estimation. At least as long as the random BS doesn't screw the player over, of course...

[Vesper]

I disagree. There's always multiple options and ways to do things. Just because the "collected 1nt3rw3bz" in their infinite wisdom decide that there is only one valid choice for each Force Org slot and therefore just one list does not mean that other lists do not work. In fact, most of those lists also don't work for the majority of players. If a new player wants to be the 40k equivalent of a button masher I suppose they can get some wisdom from those lists, but that isn't really playing to their own strengths.

There are multiple playstyles, in truth one for each individual, but we can say there are a few common types. Aggresive, defensive, reactive. Some prefer deep striking audacity, some mechanized advances, some a horde of ground pounders running across the table screaming "You can't kill all 200 of us in 6 turns!"

I mean seriously... take a Guard book, use nothing but Infantry Platoons and a Command squad. Take heavy weapon teams and special weapon teams for your anti-armor, take nothing but lasguns on everything else. Dare them to kill your entire army. That's not a list the internet talks about, it certainly isn't "mobile vendettas with melta armed vets" but I almost guarentee you it'd work. This is just one example of there not being "one master list."

I could do the same thing with Eldar, take hordes of guardians, back them up with support weapons and maybe a jetbike squad or two. Add a Farseer and his court. Spray paint them black, add white facemasks, walk forward. Not a "master list" but should be remarkably effective.

There are always more ways to play than one or two "pre-fab" lists. A pre-fab may work for someone just starting, but they'll quickly decide they would rather trade Unit X for Unit Y because they want to add a little more speed, or firepower, or their opponents have a lot of ____ that's always killing them, etc. They're a template, not an inmutable fact of existance.

Daemon players will figure out what works for their own styles and preferences and still be able to play. Maybe it won't be a Codex for min-maxing, but that doesn't make it invalid or horrible. Just because it's not your own cup of tea doesn't mean that there aren't people who match it perfectly and don't see a problem.

You don't get what I said. Could be my fault, though.

I'm not keen on the Interwebs pseudo wisdom and all, but you have to admit that there are levels in how a unit is bad. There is bad "not optimized", and bad "pyrovore". Some units just don't work. Not only because there are better choices, but because they suck at what they are meant to do. Take Warp Talons, for example.

And for example, the Bloodcrusher feels pretty retarded the way it is.