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How will Tau affect the Ultras?


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#1
bjoluemblem

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Last night, I got a good look at the new Tau codex. It seems at first glance without any playtesting to be really strong, both in terms of firepower and anti-flyer mechanisms. I'm curious as to what you all might think about how this would change the meta for us, mostly focusing on how a "balanced" marine list might change. I see one of two possibilites-either try to outshoot some of their long range, or get up close as fast as possible to destroy their gunline. It seems like it will be fighting IG. Most of the skyfire is S7-S8 with some exceptions, so stormtalons and maybe stormravens will be weakened by this. It could be countered by running Tau or IG as allies, but I'm focusing on the marine aspect. Sternguard, drop dreads, quick flyer strikes, attack bikes, etc. Mobile, hard to hit, anti-vehicle and anti-infantry units. AV13-14 might still be king, so long as cover can be granted. Predators, vindicators, and other mech might be interesting. Any thoughts?

 

Note-some of the changes that made Tau great in 6th have been nerfed a bit, disruption pods don't work like they used to, etc.


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#2
Captain Idaho

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I'm thinking this Tau Codex could make it so I don't need to worry as much about fliers now that opponents will have to bear the Tau in mind when building a list for all comers.

This means I can use my Land Raider to move into opposing lines, with a Drop Pod squad killing the Hammer Head (I reckon we'll see 1 HH to 2 Broadsides) and a Librarian with Gate to jump forward with another squad. This should put the Tau under enough pressure they can't oppose my objective taking.

#3
Schultzhoffen

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As always, if you can assault or incinerate tau you should win. However, they seem to have some great abilities to avoid this. Podding in with heavy flamers and other assorted combi weapons in that stern guard unit could be useful. We will just have to wait and see for a while.
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I reckon we'll see 1 HH to 2 Broadsides

Anybody know if you can still take Broadsides in squads of 1-3? Their railgun dropped to S8 but gained Skyfire. If you can still take 3 in a squad I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 Hammerheads and 3 Broadsides. I should think 3 Broadsides and a Razorshark ought to be enough to cover the anti-air.

 

Although it pains me to say as someone who vastly prefers shooting to CQB, we shouldn't try to outshoot them. Their guns are at least as good at killing us as ours are at killing them and theirs usually have better range. We can still shoot their vehicles of course, but against their infantry and as an overall strategy we'll need to play aggressively, get in close, let rip at rapid-fire range for a turn or two at most if they need softening up, and then assault. Even tactical marines can pulp Tau in assault without breaking a sweat. The trick, of course, is getting there.


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SirSamuelBuca

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I haven't played the new Tau yet, but talking to my fellow gamers, some of whom play Tau, we've devised a strategy of loading a Dread and Sternguard with combi flamers into a Stromraven, getting behind lines as quickly as possible, dropping off and then suiciding the Raven. The Sternguard can begin to mop up troops whilst the Raven has fire diverted to it and maybe pops a vehicle or two, chances are most Broadsides will now be looking to take out the Raven and the Dread can start taking pot shots, I decided I'd be using a plasma cannon for this. 

The entire formation will die shortly, but it's a potentially deadly suicide death star.


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#6
Captain Idaho

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I reckon we'll see 1 HH to 2 Broadsides

Anybody know if you can still take Broadsides in squads of 1-3? Their railgun dropped to S8 but gained Skyfire. If you can still take 3 in a squad I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 Hammerheads and 3 Broadsides. I should think 3 Broadsides and a Razorshark ought to be enough to cover the anti-air.
 
Although it pains me to say as someone who vastly prefers shooting to CQB, we shouldn't try to outshoot them. Their guns are at least as good at killing us as ours are at killing them and theirs usually have better range. We can still shoot their vehicles of course, but against their infantry and as an overall strategy we'll need to play aggressively, get in close, let rip at rapid-fire range for a turn or two at most if they need softening up, and then assault. Even tactical marines can pulp Tau in assault without breaking a sweat. The trick, of course, is getting there.

Yes our shooting is best used as precision attacks to negate the most dangerous elements of Tau threats to our army, whilst closing ground with other elements to defeat them.

I'd say a Drop pod attack on a Hammer Head to remove it as a threat to our heavy armour, perhaps a simultaneous Gate Librarian attack on the Path Finders and long range fire on Battle Suites.

All the while we have a philosophy of closing distance with other elements of our army.

Yes Broadsides are taken in units still. I meant we'll see armies of 1 Hammer Head to 2 units of Broadsides. That'll give better performance than GK Dreads with Psy bolts and autocannon and be the bane of flying units.

#7
The Emperor's Champion

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Man, the new Tau are nasty.

I don't know just how badly our aircraft actually need to worry about the Tau...
 

As per usual, we can't forget that we can completely shut down most Tau units by getting into melee with them.

Broadsides ESPECIALLY don't want to get into melee, and they represent a significant portion of where the Tau's anti-air power is probably going to be.

The Tau's Skyfire units are:

  • Sky Ray Missile Defence Gunships
  • XV88 Broadside Teams (with Velocity Trackers)
  • Sun Shark Bombers
  • Razorshark Fighters (this appears to just be a far less useful Sunshark, unless I'm missing something....)
  • XV104 Riptide Battlesuits (with Velocity Trackers)
  • XV15/XV25 Stealth Battlesuit Teams (with Velocity Trackers)
  • XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Commanders/Bodyguard Teams/Crisis Teams (with Velocity Trackers)

 

 

Tau Anti-Air Review:

Spoiler


Long story short:
The XV-104 Riptides are RIDICULOUS.

Riptides and Broadsides will probably be the major things to worry about in the Anti-Air department.
If you can lock all Riptides and Broadside into close combat, then I believe there's a decent chance you can make the skies safe for your Flyers.


Edited by The Emperor's Champion, 08 April 2013 - 02:30 PM.

"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
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#8
Captain Idaho

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That screams to me that we need to worry about 2x units of Broadsides and a Hammerhead plus at least 1 Riptide per Tau army, particularly in competitive environments.

Target prioritising will be essential to us. What do people propose the most important targets are in descending order?

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1. Fire Warriors.

 

 

 

What are the Tau troop choices? I can see alot of troop light Tau armies coming out, with all these fancy gubbinz. Considering most Tau armies were troop light before in the last codex. Kill the Fire Warriors, hold an objective.


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#10
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Well, I'd say the most dangerous are the Riptides, but they'll take solid effort to kill off.

In my theory, I'd eliminate as many targets as fast as possible (dangerous squishy stuff first), followed by the scoring stuff that can actually win the game, rather than focus on the most problematic first.
That leaves less stuff to shoot you while you're trying to deal with the harder to kill units, and you can focus more attention on killing stuff at the end without worrying about what Scoring units are doing.





Broadsides are probably going squarely at the top of the list. They're super simple to shut down and kill off, but they can cause mass devastation if left unchecked.

Hammerhead Gunships are....generally underwhelming in my book. They have MASSIVE range, and a MASSIVELY powerful single shot weapon with a couple completely unrelated (in usage) secondary weapons, so in the end I don't find that to be too much of a bigger threat than a Devastator squad with a Lascannon and a couple Heavy Bolters.

A Hammerhead Gunship with Longstrike (the Tau tank commander), on the other hand....HOLY CRAP!!!
KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!
Longstrike grants his Hammerhead BS5, the ability to Overwatch with his tank, and the ability to use the Tau's almost universal special rule - Supporting Fire (see fine print).
I foresee Longstrike being taken pretty universally with the first Hammerhead in every Tau army list. To me, Longstrike makes the difference between the tank being really sub-par, and it being a really legit pain in the ass.

Supporting Fire - Basically the PERFECT Ultramarines or Tactical/Devastator Squad special rule, IMO...
It allows every Tau unit that has Supporting Fire within (6"?....12"?) of a Tau unit that is the target of an enemy melee charge, to fire Overwatch at the charging enemy unit as if they themselves were being charged. A unit with Suppoting Fire can fire Overwatch again and again to support squads getting charged, just never against the same enemy unit more than once per turn. So if you make the mistake of charging Firewarriors while a whole squad of Gun Drones and a Riptide are right next to them, you're going to get a whole mess of Twin-Linked S5 BS1 shots, and maybe several S7 AP2 ones, fired at you. And if Longstrike is sitting there, you'll be getting a BS1 Hammerhead firing at you too....for EVERY TAU UNIT YOU CHARGE in range of these Fire Support units....
Oh, and Tau also have access to Battlesuit systems that allow them to upgrade their Overwatch to BS2, so it's possible to run into stuff like Broadside Teams or Riptides that will Supporting Fire you with a mountain of shots every time you charge their buddies, and actually hit enough to do a fair chunk of damage to your units.....

It's almost like the Tau can invoke whole extra shooting phases for themselves if their enemy has enough melee units.
Outside of a very specific Necron prank, this is the first time I've ever thought of Overwatch as a significant part of the game.

Riptides are super destructive, and can reach out and touch basically the whole board. They're also super hard to kill. Honestly, I think these things make Land Raiders look like a complete joke.
As much time and frustration as our opponents waste trying to blow up our Land Raiders, I think we'd be wasting similarly vital amounts of time and firepower trying to take down a Riptide that we can't easily nab in melee.
True, you can instantly tie them up if you can catch them in melee, but given the distance they can operate from and the fact that they can become extra-fast Jet Pack units, I think we could end up wasting a lot of time chasing them around the board attempting to reach charge range.
A Tau player good at kiting with Riptides could be a nightmare for everything from horde armies to Terminator armies.
So, DEFINITELY charge them if you have the opportunity, but I can see wasting all your time on it as a distraction that could easily lose you the game.

Kroot come in massive blobs of up to like...33? Kroot of various types now. I think the maxed-out squad is 20 Kroot, 10 Kroot Hounds, and 3 Krootox Riders.
They basically have Bolters (or Sniper Rifles if upgraded), so could do a fair bit of damage to our Marines if ignored, but they're SUPER squishy. I think they're T3 SV6+, so easier to kill than IG if they're not using the Stealth(Jungle) to get a half-decent Cover Save.
You can probably just devastate a Kroot Squad with whatever you happen to have laying around. A Tactical Squad or two passing by with Flamers will probably leave them effectively useless.
Since they're a fairly mobile (Fleet and Move Through Cover, I think?) Troops choice, you should probably take a second to blow them to hell and avoid risking them racing to objectives late in the game.

Firewarriors have Armor Saves that actually count for something! Their Pulse Rifles are S5 Rapidfire, and have a nice long 30" range (if only Marines or Necrons had such a magnificent range on their base weapons....). That makes them a fair nuisance. They're not super easy to kill, and they can just run away and stay out of range of most of our guns while remaining comfortably able to shoot us with shots that will wound Marines on a 3+.... <_<
More worryingly though, they have EMP Grenades (Haywire Grenades).
If a Firewarrior team gets within 8" of ANY of your vehicles, expect them to die.
12 Haywire Grenades is just....brutal. That's an average of 2.6 Glancing Hits and 2.6 Penetrating hits without effort in the shooting phase....and if your vehicle survives they can just charge it and cause 2.6 Glancing Hits and 2.6 Penetrating Hits in melee.
Kill Firewarriors.
Kill them DEAD.
For the sake of your vehicles and to take away the Tau army's objective-capturing Troops.


Pathfinders are like better Kroot...except they're not Troops. They have 5+ saves (i.e. no saves), they're fairly mobile, and they can pack some decent firepower.
I don't think of them as especially dangerous. With their limited access to Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles, I see them, at worst, as being a threat to Independent Characters that are on their own. I'm not sure if they have EMP Grenades or not. If they do, keep them away from your vehicles.



MY TARGET PRIORITY ORDER:
  • Broadsides - get them in melee ASAP to render them useless and then kill them (they're just T4 with a 2+ Save) and move on.
  • Riptides - Only if you can get into melee with it, if you've really got nothing else important to shoot, if you happen to have a super-handy opportunity pop up, or if you're REALLY sure you can blast through T6 W5 2+/5++ (Potentially 2+/3++/5+++) and two 4++Save Missile Drones.
    If you don't kill it or lock it in combat, that's more or less a wasted effort, because it can go right back to devastating stuff just as deadly as before you shot it.
    Melee really is the only sane way to deal with Riptides, IMO.
  • Firewarriors
  • Sun Shark Bomber & Razorshark Strike Fighter - They can be a hazard to our Flyers, and they have a fairly decent array of weapons. If you have decent Skyfire weapons, these things should be fairly simple to shoot down.
  • Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship - Can be a hazard to our Flyers (and anything that doesn't like getting hit with S8 AP3), and they provide the rest of the Tau army with numerous Seeker Missiles for their Marker Lights. They have paper-thin rear armor. If you can Drop Pod/Deep Strike a squad of any sort behind a Sky Ray, you should have an easy time being rid of it.
  • O'Shovah "Commander Farsight" and his Farsight Enclaves Crisis Bodyguard team - O'Shovah is a fairly deadly melee unit, and his Bodyguard Team consists of 7 Crisis suits instead of 2.... That's potentially a TON of Plasma Rifles (24" S6 AP2 Rapid-Fire), Fusion Blasters (18" Meltagun), Burst Cannons (18" S5 AP5 Assault 4), and/or Missile Pods (36" S7 AP4 Heavy2) running amoke on the board. If it were me, that would be a swarm of Plasma Rifles and Fusion Blasters to just mow down heavy infantry and tanks like crazy, and...well....that's everything we have as Space Marines. This squad is huge and can make a real mess, but they're still just T4 with a 3+ Save, so take the time to murder this glorified Space Marine special weapons team into oblivion...before it murders you.
  • Longstrike's Hammerhead
  • Ethereals - They're pretty squishy, and they give buffs to a big bubble of Tau. Should be able to wipe them out and get rid of those buffs pretty easily.
  • Kroot
  • Crisis Commander/Bodyguard Team - Glorified Crisis Team.
  • Crisis Teams - They're really just glorified Space Marines with fairly good guns and mobility. Kill them dead just to remove the nuisance. Shouldn't take too long.
  • Stealth Teams - They're like....mobile Heavy Bolter Marines with Scout abilities, and they can take 18" Meltaguns... They can be decently dangerous if left unchecked.
-----------------------------------------------------
The following I regard as equal priority :
-----------------------------------------------------
  • Riptides - ones you have to waste time chasing down. (If I were a Tau player, my Riptides would always be perched on the tallest buildings and make you climb up to get in melee range of it, on something tall behind Difficult/Dangerous Terrain that the Riptide can just shoot over, or far away in an area of the board that's completely out of my opponent's way where nothing else is going on, etc. Or I'd just kite enemy units as they attempted to get in range.)
  • Hammerhead Gunships - Less dangerous than a full-Lascannon Predator Annihilator (cheaper too though) *shrug*
  • Drone Squadrons - I see them as potentially an annoying Fire Support unit that just hangs around providing a load of Overwatch to Tau units nearby. Lots of Twin-Linked S5 shots gives them a reasonable chance to do some actual Overwatch damage.
-----------------------------------------------------
The following I regard as the least important:
-----------------------------------------------------
  • Sniper Drone Team - Meh. 1-3 Tau and 2-6 Sniper Drones. Not particularly dangerous.
  • Vespids - They're super mobile and have good-ish guns. That's about it.
  • Piranah Squadrons - They're like Land Speeders with 2 Heavy Bolters. *shrug* I suppose they might be more deadly than I give them credit for, but I think it'd be a waste of your vehicle killing power to prioritse these over anything else.
  • Devilfish - If it's JUST a Devilfish, then it's basically a glorified Piranah. If it's full of Firewarriors or Pathfinder, see above.




I can't think of anything else

1. Fire Warriors.



What are the Tau troop choices? I can see alot of troop light Tau armies coming out, with all these fancy gubbinz. Considering most Tau armies were troop light before in the last codex. Kill the Fire Warriors, hold an objective.

Just Firewarriors and Kroot, unless I'm forgetting something.

Edited by The Emperor's Champion, 08 April 2013 - 05:33 PM.

"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves,
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
.


#11
MagicMan

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Suh-weeet. 

 

Going to keep the Whirlwind out then. 


Good list/Summary btw EC. I have 3 Tau opponents atm (two oldies, one new convert), and its nice to have some insight to the codex' strengths.


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#12
Lysere

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Here's one thing people seem to forget, pathfinders are the single most powerful force multiplier in any army, and they've only gotten better. Pathfinders come with markerlights and here are some things they can do with them.

 

Boost a squads BS by 1 per marker token removed. (No cap anymore)

 

Spend 2 tokens to make a unit gain the ignores cover rule on ALL of their shots against marked unit.

 

Allow a unit to fire seekers missile by removing an equal number of marker tokens. Seekers also have ignores cover.

 

Allows any unit that is snap firing, (ie overwatch and against flyers) to fire at +1 BS over normal shooting. So 3-4 markerlight hits can return Tau units to full BS on overwatch.

 

They can use markerlights to fire supporting fire, which when combined with marker drones mixed into various squads allows many Tau units to maintain a high BS on overwatch.

 

When combined with the confirmation of the supporting fire rule allowing some units fire an unlimited number of times this simply becomes more and more of a threat.

 

Pathfinders must be killed with fire, and fast. If you don't kill them fast you'll seriously regret it later.

Lets not forget the Tau can now take entire squads of marker drones for very little and attach a drone controller equipped commander and make them all BS 5. Markerlights in any form are a very serious threat to any high value units you have, and they are even easier to get now.

 

Also fireblade boosts number of shots for a squad by 1 when not moving, so him in a squad as an anchor with support behind it (like pathfinders) can do some very serious damage. I think we'll actually see a lot of Tau lists with several full size squads with rifles.


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#13
MagicMan

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I think a Whirlwind or two is still a great bet then.

 

S 5  AP 4 kills them in the open, S 4 AP 5 Ignores Cover kills them in cover...

 

Park one or two out of sight of the enemy guns and blast away. Obviously they'll need some protection from mobile firepower, but Whirlwinds are dead cheap too.


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Toxichobbit

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Here's one thing people seem to forget, pathfinders are the single most powerful force multiplier in any army, and they've only gotten better. Pathfinders come with markerlights and here are some things they can do with them.

 

Boost a squads BS by 1 per marker token removed. (No cap anymore)

 

Spend 2 tokens to make a unit gain the ignores cover rule on ALL of their shots against marked unit.

 

Allow a unit to fire seekers missile by removing an equal number of marker tokens. Seekers also have ignores cover.

 

Allows any unit that is snap firing, (ie overwatch and against flyers) to fire at +1 BS over normal shooting. So 3-4 markerlight hits can return Tau units to full BS on overwatch.

 

They can use markerlights to fire supporting fire, which when combined with marker drones mixed into various squads allows many Tau units to maintain a high BS on overwatch.

 

When combined with the confirmation of the supporting fire rule allowing some units fire an unlimited number of times this simply becomes more and more of a threat.

 

Pathfinders must be killed with fire, and fast. If you don't kill them fast you'll seriously regret it later.

Lets not forget the Tau can now take entire squads of marker drones for very little and attach a drone controller equipped commander and make them all BS 5. Markerlights in any form are a very serious threat to any high value units you have, and they are even easier to get now.

 

Also fireblade boosts number of shots for a squad by 1 when not moving, so him in a squad as an anchor with support behind it (like pathfinders) can do some very serious damage. I think we'll actually see a lot of Tau lists with several full size squads with rifles.

 

And don't forget that you can take a Pulse Accelerator Drone with Pathfinders, to give them 24" range on their Pulse Carbines. Which are now Assualt 2. Add in a Fireblade and they are Assualt 2 but with an extra shot if the entire unit stands still. So that's 32 STR5 shots at 24", potentially at BS4 or even 5, if your willing to use a few Markerlight tokens. They may only be AP5, but weight of fire will kill a Marine Squad just as well as less high AP shots.  Anyone who's faced Dire Avengers has first hand experience of this. Well these "Dire Avengers" can hit on 2s and wound on 3s. Nasty.


Edited by Toxichobbit, 08 April 2013 - 08:55 PM.


#15
The Emperor's Champion

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Okay, so spend a turn killing Pathfinders real quick, I guess. Though I honestly still don't see them as a significant threat...

As MagicMan said, Whirlwinds can instantly ruin Pathfinders (almost like they're specifically designed for killing Tau infantry...), and it's not like any ol' Marine squad can't just charge them and kill them in melee.

Tau infantry is pretty universally simple to "solve" with Drop Pods and Tactical Marines.


"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves,
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
.


#16
ems_goof

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I'm thinking drop pods, Gate, and deep strikes.  Should be fun.



#17
The Emperor's Champion

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I love when I can just send one of my Tactical Squads to just mow down whole enemy squads in melee much like my historical "preferred enemy", the Imperial Guard (the army I played against 90% of the time while learning to play 40k).
I always used to feel a little bad about it, but it really is fun.





BASIC ASSAULT SQUAD:
A full Assault Squad with Chainswords should mow through 74% of a team of Firewarriors* on the charge (including shooting them with 10x Bolt Pistols).
So 3 out of 12 Firewarriors survive.

The rate of survival is even worse for Pathfinders. That same Assault Squad would kill 118% of a Pathfinder Team*.

BASIC TACTICAL SQUAD (just Bolters):
A basic Tactical Squad with just Bolters (but firing their Bolt Pistols) will wipe out 55% of a Firewarrior Team* on the charge (including shooting with 10x Bolt Pistols).

A basic Bolter Squad will wipe out 88% of a Pathfinder Team* on the charge (including shooting with 10x Bolt Pistols).


*Drones not included



None of that accounts for the Tactical or Assault Squad being armed with ANY upgrades. No Flamers, no Plasma Guns, no Plasma Pistols, no Power Weapons, nothin'.
It also doesn't account for something like the Drop Pod dropping Deathwind pieplates on the enemy beforehand, or even the Drop Pod's basic Storm Bolter.



Yep. Melee is the greatest thing in the world for us to deal with Tau.
We can lock them down, we can wipe them out, and while we're in melee we're immune to all their shooting.

Edited by The Emperor's Champion, 09 April 2013 - 02:22 PM.

"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves,
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
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#18
The Emperor's Champion

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Another thing for us to consider, Tau are Battle Brothers for us on the Allies Matrix.

We can TAKE Riptides and Broadsides...

 

 

Taking just a Firewarrior team with a Fireblade as the HQ and Troops, and then having access to a Riptide and a Broadside Team.....NOT a bad idea in my book.
I think that can come in under 600pts, so not a huge chunk of your army, but a hugely powerful addition.

 

 

In fact, I've been considering deploying my War For Cybertron Optimus Prime alongside my Ultramarines for realz as my Riptide.
Finally, Captain Idaho can stride into battle with the Chapter! :P
0211131750_zpsc6f221d9.jpg


Edited by The Emperor's Champion, 09 April 2013 - 02:58 PM.

"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves,
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
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#19
Brother Sergeant Scarus

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Lysere is right, Pathfinders are enemy number 1. 8 of them is a humble 88 points but they make the rest of the army that much better.

 

This weekend I olayed against Blood Angels using Tau and my Pathfinders were my single best unit. Think about it, 4 makerlights hit means the Ionhead firing an S8 AP3 blast not only ignores cover but is BS 6.

 

Similarly, 3 Markerlight hits and a Railhead hits on 2's and completely ignores smoke launchers.

 

I mean 8 markerlights can put two hits on a flyer and then one unit is hitting it on fours without having skyfire, and skyfire broadsides are suddenly hitting on 2's! 

 

Long story short; Tau do combined arms really well and are pretty scary when working cohesively. We have to try and  them apart accordingly and focus on the enemy units which are gluing their list together.


Malithos looked at his brothers in raw disbelief for a moment, before tilting his head at the First Captain. "Are you mad, Sevatar?"

"I don’t think so. I feel fine."

"How would you stop us?" asked Var Jahan.

"I’d kill you, of course. What kind of question is that? But let’s hope we don't reach that point. Emotions are running high, and my spear is all the way over there...''


#20
The Emperor's Champion

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So, what you're saying is that any allied Tau Fast Attack should be Pathfinders.

 

 


See, there's just not THAT many Markerlights in a Tau army unless they're really really making a point of spamming Pathfinders or Sniper Teams. Pathefinders, maybe. Sniper Teams, unlikely.
 

Really, I regard Seeker Missiles as the most dangerous thing about Marker Lights, but the Tau have to go out of their way to make sure they have some.

 

Having a super dangerous Tau unit shoot you with a super dangerous gun that is now super extra dangerous...well, I dunno. I think it's a waste.
I firmly believe in fireing MORE guns instead of more accurate guns.
Give me the option to take two Heavy Bolters or a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter and I'll choose the two every single time.

I could get a load of Pathfinders to make a couple guns shoot extra-bonus-super-good, or I can just get a load more guns.
Sure, Pathfinders seems super effective since they can take credit for the work of every unit they mildly assist, but really, if you just had more units they could shoot more.
If Unit A misses, Unit B can finish the job.
or
If Unit A succeeds, Unit B can potentially succeed at kiling something else entirely.

BS3 isn't terrible, and using two Markerlights to make a single unit BS5 seems....eh.... I'd rather just let them shoot and fire two Seeker Missiles.

 



I dunno. Point is, I'm not convinced by Pathfinders.


"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves,
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
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#21
CaptainBloodHunter

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i

 

So, what you're saying is that any allied Tau Fast Attack should be Pathfinders.

 

 


See, there's just not THAT many Markerlights in a Tau army unless they're really really making a point of spamming Pathfinders or Sniper Teams. Pathefinders, maybe. Sniper Teams, unlikely.
 

Really, I regard Seeker Missiles as the most dangerous thing about Marker Lights, but the Tau have to go out of their way to make sure they have some.

 

Having a super dangerous Tau unit shoot you with a super dangerous gun that is now super extra dangerous...well, I dunno. I think it's a waste.
I firmly believe in fireing MORE guns instead of more accurate guns.
Give me the option to take two Heavy Bolters or a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter and I'll choose the two every single time.

I could get a load of Pathfinders to make a couple guns shoot extra-bonus-super-good, or I can just get a load more guns.
Sure, Pathfinders seems super effective since they can take credit for the work of every unit they mildly assist, but really, if you just had more units they could shoot more.
If Unit A misses, Unit B can finish the job.
or
If Unit A succeeds, Unit B can potentially succeed at kiling something else entirely.

BS3 isn't terrible, and using two Markerlights to make a single unit BS5 seems....eh.... I'd rather just let them shoot and fire two Seeker Missiles.

 



I dunno. Point is, I'm not convinced by Pathfinders.

 

I agree with The Emperors Champion they have more accurate guns but us the Ultra Marines have always been able to field more body's and guns .i now think chronus will be a advantage to predators  he is are version of Darkstrider ,but vechiles will have a hard time against the Tau with Riptides ,Hammerheads and Broadsides i would play something like this against Tau
 
HQ

Terminator armour, storm shield, force axe, Null Zone and
Avenger 150



Troops



Tactical Squad x 10 – 210



-Rhino, Meltagun, Multi-Metla



 



Tactical Squad x 10 – 210



-Rhino, Meltagun, Multi-Metla



 



Tactical Squad x 10 – 210



-Rhino, Meltagun, Multi-Metla


Elites

 

Assult terminators -200
5xTH/SS
                
 Assult terminators -200
5xTH/SS                  
                

Assult terminators -200
5xTH/SS                 
               

  Heavy Support              


 

Devastator Squad


1 sergant

 

4 heavy bolters



Razorback - TL- heavy bolter


 

Devastator Squad


1 sergant

 

4 heavy bolters



Razorback - TL- heavy bolter

 

Devastator Squad


1 sergant

 

4 heavy bolters



Razorback - TL- heavy bolter

 

if enough are left over add some MM attack bikes.

 

so with this you have loads of guns ,lots of anti  infantry ,lots of anti tank ,you have 3 weapon platforms in the shape of razorbacks .the rhinos deliver there cargo to objectives then shield the assult terminators whos goals are to tie up pathfinders or firewarriors and destroy them in close combat while advancing up the board while this is happening we use the advantage of the amount of guns we have to take out broadsides and riptides ,plus hammerheds which contain Darkstrider .

 

to defeat the tau now we need target priority and are number of guns we can field .

                


                   


#22
Lysere

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Also they can put up to two marker drones on any suit for not much more than a pathfinder. And add a drone controller to a single suit and they all get buffed BS. Now factor how many units can take drones and how many pathfinders can be in a squad. (10 now not 8) They can spam marker lights, and they can do it for cheap, thing is they don't even need them.

 

Another thing to remember is you try and assault a tau gunline with you 10 man assault squad, you can be sure at least half of them will die on the charge. Pathfinders can sit behind the gunline so you won't be assaulting them, plus they can reduce your charge range, and if you stick darkstrider in with them they consolidate after overwatching and before you can charge.

 

The Tau army is designed to make you really think about that assault. If you want to charge you need more than one unit, and even then your hope is to not win, but drag it into the next turn. Winning means the army is now hitting you at normal BS plus markerlights, not BS 1 plus markerlights.

 

Whirlwinds will be handy for wiping out pathfinders, but what about once their dead? Everything will at least have cover or armor against whirlwind shooting (If played smart) and your giving up a heavy support or two that can easily be killed by any Tau anit-tank.

 

The single best list to fight Tau, (even one that takes everything they can to be ready for it) is a drop pod list. You can negate their long range in an instant, plus make it hard to use blast weapons, giving you the advantage. Sadly if they run suits they can easily break out of this if your not careful.


ETL_04_Primus_Inter_Pares.jpgImg_CH00_08Awards_06_ETL_2013A_zpscbc6fekJirQ.gif

#23
AmCjkh

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Utilizing drop pods against Tau strikes me as a great idea as well, but one thing to be aware of is how much Interceptor they can get. Every battlesuit can get it, meaning the Riptide with the AP2 pie plate can potentially hit drop podded troops before they get to fire. I don't think this will invalidate a drop pod attack against Tau, just something to be wary of.


Edited by AmCjkh, 09 April 2013 - 09:26 PM.

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Plato

#24
Midnight Runner

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Some very useful analysis of their units here guys, and some good counter ideas. Hope you don't mind me poaching some msn-wink.gif


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#25
The Emperor's Champion

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With Markerlights from Pathfinders being just another random source, Pathfinders aren't very special in that regard. And I will HAPPILY let my Marines get hit by flashlights.
For every flashlight I get hit by that's one less gun shooting me.

Again, only Seeker Missiles are of real use with Markerlights, and Tau have to go out of their way to supply them.
If you take tons of Marker lights and only a few Seeker Missiles you could use them all up in one round. After that all those Markerlights are probably worth about a third of what they'd be if they were real weapons.
And even that is a little iffy now that you can fire Seeker Missiles without Markerlights.
 

 

You only need maybe 10 Markerlights for a whole Tau army. After that...why?

  • Having a Markerlight raise the BS of a whole team of Firewarriors by +1 every turn, probably worth it.
  • Having a Markerlight raise the BS of a few Battlesuits with mismatched weapons (i.e. almost every non-Twin-Linked Crisis suit combo)....probably not worth it.
  • Having a Markerlight raise the BS of a few Battlesuits with Twin-Liked weapons....why? TL BS3 already hits more often than BS4.
  • Having a Broadside Team benefit from BS4 (5 is overkill with all of a Broadside's weapons being Twin-Linked) every time they fire is AWESOME....but that only requires like 2 Markerlights to make happen pretty reliably.
  • Hammerheads benefit HUGELY from BS increase.....but the only Hammerhead you should see in a Tau army is the one with Longstrike, shich is already a BS5 Tankhunter that can do Supporting Fire....

Every Markerlight is essentially a 12pt BS+1 upgrade that can be killed....
It's useful if it applies to a TON of guns (e.g. Firewarriors and Kroot) or a good number of really good guns (e.g. Broadsides and Riptides)
For anything that might be described as "a few decent guns" (e.g. Crisis Teams, Vespids, Stealthsuits, etc) it's not really worth it.


I can go down the whole list of Tau units and find like 5 units worth taking that would benefit from Markerlights which don't already have Networked Markerlights, so that's like maybe 10 Markerlights that are worth having in a Tau army....and they're not going to be of much use if all 10 of them are in a Pathfinder Team and get pointed at the same target.

Battlesuits, Fire Warriors, and whoever can happen to buy a couple Marker Drones...THAT is where you should be getting Markerlights.

Pathfinders....meh. Better as a squad that actually shoots, but you'd be vastly better off just getting more Firewarriors. Firewarriors are cheaper, much harder to kill, much longer ranged, come in larger squads, and can take 3 Markerlights (with a Target Lock, no less!), if you're so inclined.

A Drone Squad is best off filled with Gun Drones and providing a Twin-Linked Supporting Fire nightmare for anyone attempting to assault.

Even at BS1 a Drone Squad will hit with the power of 3x BS4 Heavy Bolters that are shooting normally....

That's like pissing off a Devastator Squad every time you charge a Tau unit.


And given how absurdly simple Pathfinders are to wipe off the board, why would you rely on them for Markerlights when basically every other unit with Markerlights is waaaay sturdier?
 

 


So, in summation:
Take Pathfinders and have easy to kill Markerlights that can only mark 1 unit per turn
or
Take Markerlights randomly on other units and have them be much harder to kill and able to mark all manner of different targets each turn...





I, for one, welcome Tau armies that bother wasting time with Pathfinders. They're the easiest thing to kill in the whole Codex.
At least Kroot come in swarms more than 3x as big, for about half the pts per model...and they have Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and Stealth, and are therefore probably going to be harder to kill than Pathfinders.


"The ltramarines are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters. From the dawn of the Imperium they have served the Emperor with loyalty and a ferocity that no others can match." "in faith and in valour they are unmatched." "The ltramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines, the purest and noblest of all Adeptus Astartes." "Many hold the ltramarines to be the rightful heir not only of Guilliman, but of the Emperor himself." ~Games-Workshop
The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves,
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
.





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