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Can Land Raider Spam Be Competitive?

Blood Angels

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#1
TheBiasedBloodAngel

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The Land Raider is their a more iconic tank in 40k?

 

The Blood Angels Codex has not been holding up to well this edition 'competitively', its still playable when compared to other codices such as nids and templars but certain SW,GK and IG builds will just destroy us 9 times out of 10. 6th edition is dominated by shooting and blood angels are far from shooty. We can pack some good Assault but its all quite costly, and with the nerf to furious charge the assault phase is far from game changing. But one thing BA can do is throw down a shiz tone of land raiders. Most people don't take them anymore and i don't see why not, at least where i play you will get the odd person with a Land Raider, and when they do field it it survives all game. simply because everyone is switching to plasma, guard are switching to auto canons and most people are just not packing enough high strength shots. Instead tonnes of medium strength. 

 

So could spamming land raiders be competitive? They are impervious to most things that are go to in the current meta. Eg Hell drakes, plasma, flamers of tzeentch these are all things that i see all over the place in my club and none of them can harm a land raider. plasma bounces off so does the bale flamer and vector strike is only str7. 

 

So i'm considering making a LR Heavy List. In order to win with this list in 6th it must be able to deal with infantry hordes which was my main concern. So heres a list i came up with, 

 

HQ- Librarian, Shield of Sanguinius, Divination = 100

Elite- Furioso Dread in Pod = 160

Elite- Furioso Dread in Pod = 160

Troop- Land Raider, 5 Assault Marines = 315

Troop- Land Raider, 5 Assault Marines = 315

Troop- Land Raider, 5 Assault Marines = 315

Troop- Redeemer Multi-Melta, 5 Assault Marines = 315

Troop- Redeemer Multi-Melta, 5 Assault Marines = 315

= 1995

 

Just look at this list for a moment could your army deal with 20 AV 14 Hull Points? For that matter what army could with out encountering difficulty? Long Fang spam is gonna need 6's to glance with the ML's and even if they do the Librarian can throw up Shield for a 5+ cover. 

 

Can it deal with mech? Yes 6 Twin-Linked Lascanons

Can it deal with flyers? Yes 6 Twin-Linked Lascanons 

Can it deal with hordes? Yes redeemer Flame storm Canons/Assault Canons + Dreads who can get divination from liby will tear infantry to pieces, re-rolling hits and wounds = awesome sauce

Can it take Objectives? Yes 5 scoring AV14 Machines of awesomeness 

Is it survivable? Melta was the biggest threat and now everyone is packing plasma, so yes

+ LR Can deepstrike and tank shock.

 

i'm probably being a bit biased with its effectiveness but i don't see a major weakness that can potentially be exploited. The list seems to be solid and will catch a lot of players off guard simply because they arnt packing enough high strength shots. Lets start a discussion on the effectivness of raider spam, can it be competitive? As a Blood Angel Community lets refine this list into something Awesome. I have 2 dreads and heaps of packless marines, + a land raider. If we can refine this list i will sure as hell make it and get some battle reports up.

 

Regards

 

TheBiasedBloodAngel


Edited by TheBiasedBloodAngel, 10 April 2013 - 11:53 AM.


#2
J-rich54

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Hey Brother!

 

I tried a LR list some week ago against a CSM player because I was tired to get my ass kicked by his dual helldrake list at 1500 pts

 

my list wasn't a pure LR spam , It was :

 

Librarian shield

 

sang priest w/ power axe

 

2 x assault squad (5) , melta, LR redeemer w/ multi melta

 

2x stormraven

 

furioso dread w/ blood talons

 

attack bike (3) / 3 MM

 

I wasn't sure of how this could work but like you said i took him of balance with my LRs and tabled him by turn 4 or 5

It worked very well!! 



#3
knife&fork

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5 raiders is tough, no question about it. However, a couple of issues with this approach; 

 

Heldrakes and nightschytes might not be a problem, but vendettas will still be.

 

AV14 is durable but still vulnerable to fast melta, rending, MCs, lance weapons, autoglancing wargear and S9-10 weapons. All of which there are plenty.

 

You have to get out of the transport to score. Can be a huge problem if you go first since 5 marines are pretty easy to wipe.

 

Not that much firepower. Meched up elite armies might get a problem, as well as underequipped hordes. But against a more middle of the road list it will be tough to kill enough of them.

 

Also you can't mix rulebook and codex powers on the librarian, but that's not a big deal.. 

 

-------

 

That said it's actually tempting :P If nothing else I'd love to see the look on my opponents face when I put down 5 raiders :D


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#4
UltraBlood

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Do you play against a lot Necron armies?  I would think with their ability to glance on 6's would be an issue for this list. 

 

Other then that I think it would be fun to play and look forward to hearing how it preforms.



#5
knife&fork

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As much as I like furioso dreads I can't help but think that they might be too expensive in a LR spam list. They do contribute to the high AV spam and will attract some fire but 320 pts will buy you a lot of stuff elsewhere. Plus we only get one pod on turn 1 which isn't ideal. Looking at FA or HS picks would also net us more scoring in a third of the missions. 

 

The librarian will also be a bit limited since we can't draw LoS from inside the LR, even in the shooting phase. While expensive Mephiston is probably the better choice unless we take some attack bikes for a bike librarian to join.   


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#6
Ushtarador

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Standard land raiders should not be used as shooting vehicles in my opinion. 215pts for two TL lascannons is just ridiculous, sure it's durable against a lot of stuff but it really isn't that dangerous either, especially in a time when vehicles are replaced by infantry. Also, as mentioned by UltraBlood, Necrons will just laugh and table you with ease. As would my BA list with Mephiston, attack bikes and meltasquads.

Also, redeemers are fun in theory, but in an actual game I feel it's hard to use the flamer effectively. Most of the time you have to drive 12'' to get within range, meaning you can only fire 1 of them, and then you usually die because you are in melee range.

 

I would suggest playing a solid core of 2 redeemers/crusaders with some DC or assault termies to boost forward and actually pose a threat, and support this with stormravens, fragiosos and MM attackbikes.



#7
knife&fork

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Necrons will not table you with ease, barring a tailored build. Same goes for just about any codex actually, including BA. 

 

Gauss is fairly short ranged and it takes a lot to glance away all those hull pts. Negating all tesla fire more than makes up that weakness. What you have to worry about is storm crypteks riding nightscythes, a very common thing to see. Good news is that there will be 4 of them tops, not unreasonable to deal with. 

 

I don't think 2 raiders is enough saturation, it's the massed AV14 that makes it tough. 


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#8
CitadelArmyGuy

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Haha it's ballsy, thats true. I think the prevalence and popularity of 5pt meltabombs found in many codicies by this point may be a trouble. Necrons is an autolose, and you'll get trouble from Eldar/DE Lances, mass-MCs, CSM Obliterators, Tau Hammerheads, and IG Manticores (among other things). Those things are all popular too.

 

Funny enough, I would love to see this list if I was running a particular BA list-- there's one I've got in mind that plays 8 meltaguns, 6 MM, and 2 meltabombs. But that is "Blue on Blue" so either way Blood Angels wins, right? hah


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#9
Ushtarador

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Just take this list I made for a tourney:

 

- Mephiston
- Fragioso w/Pod
- Sanguinary Priest, JP, PW
- 10 ASM, 2xmelta, PW

- 10 ASM, 2xmelta, PW

- Scouts w/Missile Launcher
- 2 Attack Bikes, Multimelta

- 2 Attack Bikes, Multimelta
- Stormraven, TLMM,TLAC,Hurricane Bolters

 

It's only 1500pts yet, so add in another raven and keep the other 250pts, and I still have a hard time believing I could lose to the landraider spam. Sure there are lists who will struggle to table you, but I don't see this list winning against a competitive build. It just doesn't have the firepower, raiders were never good as a pure shooting platform.

For the 950 points spent on those 3 regular raiders, I can get 2 stormravens, 2x scouts to stick inside for scoring and then I still have 340 points left for dakka baals, attack bikes, fragiosos or whatever I want.


Edited by Ushtarador, 10 April 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#10
knife&fork

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Nope, but by gaming the meta they can be survivable scoring units, and that's enough to win.

 

Your example list is another outlier, just from being BA really, specially if you spam even more melta which shouldn't be needed against the common competitive builds.

I also think that some of you overestimate the effectiveness of melta against raiders. Getting with 2D6 range isn't always the easiest thing to do and even then a melta shot in no way equals a dead raider.

 

Sure a few lucky shots can cripple you completely but that's half the fun running extreme lists. 

If I wanted stable, predictable, scoring gunline I wouldn't be using BA to begin with.


Edited by knife&fork, 12 April 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#11
knife&fork

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So I threw together a couple of different lists with 5 Landraiders of various types in them.

All 1995 pts as per the OPs example.

List 1, blasts and templates!:

Mephiston

LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Redeemer (Assault squad)
LR Redeemer (Assault squad)
LR Redeemer (Assault squad)

Whirlwind
Whirlwind
_________________________________

List 2, More Melta!:

Librarian on bike

LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Crusader + pintle MM (Assault squad)
LR Crusader + pintle MM (Assault squad)
LR Crusader + pintle MM (Assault squad)

MM attack bike * 3
MM attack bike * 2
_________________________________

List 3, dakka and flyer!

Librarian

LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Crusader + pintle MM (Assault squad)
LR Crusader + pintle MM (Assault squad)
LR Crusader + pintle MM (Assault squad)
DC *3 (late game denial/linebreaker unit to ride in the raven)

SR gunship + HB sponsons
_________________________________


Now all of the above have some bad matchups for sure, but none of them are unplayble. With tweaks towards you local meta I'm sure some variations would be quite strong! :D

Edited by knife&fork, 10 April 2013 - 04:41 PM.

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#12
DerekLee688

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Not to draw the conversation away from pure LR spam, but C:BA does have a lot of shooting options. Fast predators, fast vindicators, sternguard, attack bikes(tougher with sang priest), and land speeder typhoons are all cost effective shooty options. They are ideal to support expensive land raiders with anti-horde/MEQ/AT support.

 

I'd run a flame baal with lascannon LR's and have jump pack infantry behind them, as an alternative to a flamestorm land raider with assault troops.


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#13
Morticon

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I gotta pipe up here again and try waylay this impression-  I dont believe crons are an autolose at all.  

 

Without any cover, you need 9 shots to do one glance.  So, you're looking at 36 gauss shots (out of cover). In 5+ (shield - which you cant use with Divination by the way!) you're looking at what, almost 50 to kill a land raider?  Good luck.  

 

I wouldnt play dreads though.  I would consider making a stronger counter charge element in at least one and possibly two raiders.  Maybe a chunky DC with a few axes, led by the Libby.  And maybe change one redeemer for a crusader. 

I like this list.  Think its got potential.  

 


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#14
ChapelXIII

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Personally I really like the idea. It is a very survivable list. I always hear arguments about how you're troops still have to get out, but as long as you make sure you leave the land raider between you troops and the army that is shooting at you what can they really do? I could see a list like this being pretty competitive and fun to play. 

 

The only downside I see is the price($) to field the army. 



#15
knife&fork

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Personally I really like the idea. It is a very survivable list. I always hear arguments about how you're troops still have to get out, but as long as you make sure you leave the land raider between you troops and the army that is shooting at you what can they really do? I could see a list like this being pretty competitive and fun to play. 

 

The only downside I see is the price($) to field the army. 

 

When you get out of the raiders you'll have small units vulnerable to flyers, fast movers, deep strikers, artillery and flyers. Definitely something that needs to be taken into consideration. 

 

I gotta pipe up here again and try waylay this impression-  I dont believe crons are an autolose at all.  

 

Without any cover, you need 9 shots to do one glance.  So, you're looking at 36 gauss shots (out of cover). In 5+ (shield - which you cant use with Divination by the way!) you're looking at what, almost 50 to kill a land raider?  Good luck.  

 

My thoughts exactly. AV14 is much less vulnerable vs all the common things you find in a typical Necron list. Being able to laugh off the tesla destructors is huge. 

 

Massed  HS scythes, doomsdays arks, and heavy destroyers are not exactly common and I haven't seen a scarab farm at all in 6th. Rarely more than a single warscythe too.   


Edited by knife&fork, 10 April 2013 - 10:28 PM.

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#16
SamaNagol

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Tau have a lot of access to good ranged melta shots. Plus you will see 1 maybe 2 Hammerheads in competitive lists. They could prove a problem.



#17
TheBiasedBloodAngel

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Yeh the Furiosos probably have to go, its just infantry hordes are everywhere (so many people run IG Blobs) and in theory with the blood talons and divination you could rip through a 50+ guardsman unit quite easily, in a turn. Especially if they are equipped with auto-canons and plasma which is the most common load out. need 6's to glance the Front AV13. And grenades won't be an issue as they are initiative 3 and will likely get shanked before they can swing back. Theres also a typhus plague zombie fag at my club, he's currently undergoing a month long project, 210 plague zombies, typhus, 3 helldrakes and 2 forge fiends, 2000points. I think this list would waste him, the furiosos would tear through the str3 plague zombies as they cant get upgrades. And the Helldrakes would not be able to do anything to the Land Raiders. I agree about Land Raiders not being great gun platforms and 5man RAS packing any assault punch but i never insinuated this anyway. This list wins by being stubborn and parking on objectives. If i were to run a generic BA army with mephiston and assault marines at my club, the RAS would get bale flamered to death and if they made it to assault one of these big units overwatching would take the RAS up the ass. Mephiston gets called out in challenges by guardsman with laspistols. All the things that are reasonable in the codex, MM Attack Bikes, Assault Canon HB Raven are all available to generic marines. So if i want to play a reasonably competitive army i don't want to be restricted to these units other players rate so highly that are available to so many codexes. I want to make a reasonably competitive list that will just catch people off guard, and more importantly radiate with 'Blood Angels' not just red marines. A lot of people where i play get surprised when they see one raider on the table and struggle to deal with it because they r only packing 3 lascanons, and a tone of plasma. Also i live in Aus the 40k scene isn't as competitive here there are no renowned GT's such as the Nova or anything like that, personally i think this will roll over 90% of the dudes at my club. 

 

Knife&Fork your awesome, i think your the only person other than me that thinks this can work smile.png


Edited by TheBiasedBloodAngel, 10 April 2013 - 10:13 PM.


#18
knife&fork

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Tau have a lot of access to good ranged melta shots. Plus you will see 1 maybe 2 Hammerheads in competitive lists. They could prove a problem.

 

 

From the looks of it spamming missiles and plasma is going to be popular with tau. Most units that can take fusion blasters are better with different options since you don't want them anywhere near the enemy. Tau will survive on combined arms. 

 

That's not to say lists will be devoid of melta, piranhas are a very sensible choice and something I expect to see more of.

 

Vs Tau however tank shocks become very dangerous (for them) and even the five man assault squads have good chance of wiping a Tau unit in CC. 

A list like the one I posted earlier with whirlwinds, redeemers and Mephiston would not be easy for Tau to handle.... I think :P 

 

Yeh the Furiosos probably have to go, its just infantry hordes are everywhere (so many people run IG Blobs) and in theory with the blood talons and divination you could rip through a 50+ guardsman unit quite easily, in a turn. Especially if they are equipped with auto-canons and plasma which is the most common load out. need 6's to glance the Front AV13. And grenades won't be an issue as they are initiative 3 and will likely get shanked before they can swing back. Theres also a typhus plague zombie fag at my club, he's currently undergoing a month long project, 210 plague zombies, typhus, 3 helldrakes and 2 forge fiends, 2000points. I think this list would waste him, the furiosos would tear through the str3 plague zombies as they cant get upgrades. And the Helldrakes would not be able to do anything to the Land Raiders. I agree about Land Raiders not being great gun platforms and 5man RAS packing any assault punch but i never insinuated this anyway. This list wins by being stubborn and parking on objectives. If i were to run a generic BA army with mephiston and assault marines at my club, the RAS would get bale flamered to death and if they made it to assault one of these big units overwatching would take the RAS up the ass. Mephiston gets called out in challenges by guardsman with laspistols. All the things that are reasonable in the codex, MM Attack Bikes, Assault Canon HB Raven are all available to generic marines. So if i want to play a reasonably competitive army i don't want to be restricted to these units other players rate so highly that are available to so many codexes. I want to make a reasonably competitively list that will just catch people off guard, and more importantly radiate with 'Blood Angels' not just red marines. A lot of people where i play get surprised when they see one raider on the table and struggle to deal with it because they r only packing 3 lascanons, and a tone of plasma. 

 

Knife&Fork your awesome, i think your the only person other than me that thinks this can work smile.png

 

There are many ways of running BA that doesn't include lots of assault marines and other things vulnerable to heldrakes. BA do pod lists and different kinds of heavy mech really well thanks to our speed.

Just because two codex have the same or similar units doesn't mean that they are useful for both. As an example BA and all other marines can take rifleman dreads (double TL autocannon) and predators. For BA however the predator is a lot better because it has 'fast' while the rifleman dread isn't as useful as BA tend to play more on the offensive.

 

Talon dreads (both DC and Furioso) are nice when they make it into combat. But that's not easy! Getting them to work in this list is difficult since they would arrive one by one and be very thankful targets for any shots that can't harm or reach your raiders. As for the killcount remember that you can only kill engaged models. Getting more than 10 in one phase will rarely happen, specially since you will swing before the lower Initiative models make their pile in.

 

Frag cannon furiosos would be somewhat better as they would encourage your opponent to spread out a bit allowing you to hopefully concentrate on one flank and maybe avoid any melta alltogether. 

 

While I support your idea I think it's best to point out that we are talking about exploiting a 'hole' in the current meta. I'd be fine with having a lot of raiders just for fun but if you are new to hobby or on a budget it's best to realize that this type of extreme list can become almost useless as the meta shifts. Could happen with just the release of a single codex! 

If you play with a smaller group of people it could even happen after your first couple of games as the other players wise up and bring more anti AV14 to their lists.


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#19
TheBiasedBloodAngel

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Final List?

I do like the Mephiston/Whirlwind List but independent dudes running around can be dealt with, challenges etc and in my opinion don't make up their points. Plus the list really needed some solid anti infantry slaying, whirlwinds are good but not as good as vindicators :P

HQ- Librarian = 100
Troop- Ras, Godhammer = 315
Troop- Ras, Godhammer = 315
Troop- Ras, Godhammer = 315
Troop- Ras, Redeemer, Multi-Melta = 315
Troop- Ras, Redeemer, Multi-Melta = 315
Heavy- Vindicator, Dozer blade = 150
Heavy- Vindicator, Dozer blade = 150
= 1975
what to do with the 25points?

So tactically the 3 Godhammer's sit back and shoot the librarian will sit in 1 and throw up shield, the RAS jump out to claim objectives late game. They target enemy mech and flyers, 2 twin linked lascanons gives a 66% chance of scoring a hit on a flyer. But if the flyer is something like a hell drake it can be ignored, due to its uselessness towards av14. redeemers advance with the vindicators hugging there ass for a cover save, these 4 vehicles target infantry, and the assault marines can charge if needed. 5 dudes isn't much but if they both charge a unit together they are a threat.
So a solid list? i already have the marines from my 5th ed razor spam army, godhammer and 2 vindicators all that remains is 4 land raiders :o
Should i do it?

Edited by TheBiasedBloodAngel, 11 April 2013 - 07:14 AM.


#20
Jolemai

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Fear for the other Librarian spell? Also 25 points could equal five Melta Bombs.

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#21
SamaNagol

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Speaking of not making their points back..... Redeemers.



#22
TheBiasedBloodAngel

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How about this a more simmered down version, with 'only' three land raiders but packing some assault punch. 

 

Hq- Librarian = 100

Troop- RAS in Godhammer = 315

Troop- RAS in Godhammer = 315

Troop- RAS in Godhammer = 315

Heavy- Raven, TLAC, HBS = 230 

Troop- 10DC, 2PF = 250 

Fast- Baal, HB, TLAC, DB = 150

Fast- 3 Attack Bikes, MM's = 150 

Heavy- Vindicator, Dozer blade = 150

 

= 1975 

 

Thoughts?



#23
knife&fork

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While more 'balanced' I also think it's less dangerous than any of the previous ones. Their strength was an overwhelming number of AV14, with the one above an opponent can dissect your army and very little firepower will be wasted as opposed to anything S7 and below being near useless.  

 

The Phobos (godhammer is the lascannon itself!) LR providing fire support and the redeemers putting pressure up front is what made the original concept work. smile.png

 

Let me explain my thinking on one of the previous lists as an example.

 

Mephiston 

 

More survivable than you give him credit for, extremely easy to hide with all the huge Landraiders on the board. Can pick his fights and is another target that demands the attention of high S low AP shooting or dangerous CC units. Can reach squads which your vehicles will have problems with due to LoS, elevation or just the size of the raider.


LR Phobos (Assault squad)
LR Phobos (Assault squad)

 

Hang around the backfield, holding objectives, shoot armor. You know the drill smile.png


LR Redeemer (Assault squad)
LR Redeemer (Assault squad)
LR Redeemer (Assault squad)

 

These put pressure on your opponent. Dangerous to everything but massed 2+ saves. Similar to the vindicators in that it's something you have to deal with. Would like to find the points for MM on these but not sure how.


Whirlwind
Whirlwind

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking these are only there for backfield fire support or dismissing them just because they do a poor job killing 3+ models.

Being fast makes these capable of following close behind a raider without exposing themselves and still fire. Ordnance barrage means they can deny cover saves and 'snipe' models in squads holding special weapons (melta). They will encourage your opponent not to castle which will make it easier for you to take him out piece by piece. Good against horde. Capable of knocking HPs off transports. Can be used as blockers in an emergency to perform a tankshock or shield your raiders from an assault or shooting attack.  Oh, and pinning as a bonus.

 

In this list they can also fire with impunity. Unlike vindicators you never have to worry about scatter as nothing that should be on the board will care one bit about an off target blast. Even your small assault squads won't loose a single model on average if they end up under it. 

 

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I'm sure you could see how this list (if played with finesse) could be a tough match for many opponents. Sometimes you might have to throw everything but the Phobos LR squads into the meatgrinder, but as long as you watch your secondary VPs and hold a few objectives at the end you'll come out on top.


Edited by knife&fork, 12 April 2013 - 10:30 AM.

24 years of Blood Angels

#24
TheBiasedBloodAngel

TheBiasedBloodAngel

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Thanks for the post knife, I dont give a shiz what anyone says i am making this army smile.png

Like you said the look on your opponents face is all that matters when you throw down 5 Land Raiders, although the list definitely has potential to whup some ass due to the current meta. 

 

Take a look at this youtube vid of the armies at the Colonial GT, full of competitive players. Most are packing Helldrakes, Flamers of tzeentch and tonnes of plasma/auto canons. All of which will just bounce of land raiders. (2000 Point Armies BTW

 


Edited by TheBiasedBloodAngel, 12 April 2013 - 09:22 AM.


#25
knife&fork

knife&fork

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Thanks for the post knife, I dont give a shiz what anyone says i am making this army smile.png

Like you said the look on your opponents face is all that matters when you throw down 5 Land Raiders, although the list definitely has potential to whup some ass due to the current meta. 

 

That's the spirit! tongue.png

If nothing else you'll at least be "that guy with 5 raiders *shakes head*"

Don't know if you've built a LR before but for the love of the emperor, magnetize the weapons and options! Might seem like a hassle but it will save time and tears later when painting, transporting and playing. Not having stuff break, being able to swap armament and gear on the fly is totally worth it on a chunky centerpiece model like the LR.

 

I'm tempted to try myself (when I get back to my stuff) but I'll proxy a game or two before committing to see if I like that playstyle. I think it will be fun though, lot's of sneaky tricks to play with vehicle movement that you just don't get to do normally. smile.png


Edited by knife&fork, 12 April 2013 - 12:22 PM.

24 years of Blood Angels