so why do sisters and black templars hate each other?

[Marshall Bretton]

title says it basically, why are sisters of battle and black templars desperate allies in 6th?

 

they are both extremely zealous servants of the emperor, they both hate witches, they are both extremely religious, the templars were one of the chapters that assaulted the imperial palace to end the reign of blood. They seem like a perfect match to be honest

 

Now they have had some bad blood before with the inquisition using the sisters against the templars, but the ecclesiarchy went to war against the space wolves because they thought they were barbarian heathens and they are still allies of convenience with the sisters

 

is there something i am missing here?

 

i would love to do a sisters/templars allied army but i really don't want to have to worry about the one eye open rule. i may use dark angels and call them black templars instead as that would work, but it's still not quite the same

 

if anyone could shed some light on this for me it would be great

[Riffer77]

I didn't get that impression when I read the short story: And they shall know no fear. I am not going to spoil to much, but if you read ATSKNF short I think you'll have no truble building a BT/SoB allied army. But I'll let you be the judge of that, here is a link: 

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/and-they-shall-know-no-fear-ebook.html

[Marshall Bretton]

i will look into that one, i assume it shows them working together well then?

 

but that is my point, why are the desperate allies in the brb? it doesn't make any sense to me

[Dosjetka]

Sadly, certain other alliances in the Allies matrix do not make sense, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of direct, logical answer.

 

EDIT: In the short story, there is a certain degree of mistrust, but then again, I do not think that it justifies them not being able to ally-up normally.

[thade]

The Sisters have strong ties with the Ecclesiarchy and are strictly adherent to the Imperial Cult...which Astartes as a rule are not. This leads to no shortage of tension between Astartes and the forces whose job it is to enforce the Imperial Cult. :)

 

Couple that with the fact that the Templar also ignore the codex Astartes - the thing meant to keep them in check - so they're still legion-sized and still potetially a threat.

 

Finally...there may be some meta-reason I haven't considered, like tons of chep sisters with boltguns + Black Templar Vows or something. I'm not sure.

[TheCrimsonLancer]

In Helsreach, the Sisters defending the cathedral are initially suspicious of the Black Templars, but the cannoness warms up to Grimaldus eventually.

[Dosjetka]

 

In Helsreach, the Sisters defending the cathedral are initially suspicious of the Black Templars, but the cannoness warms up to Grimaldus eventually.

With her inferno pistol, no doubt :P

[SpecialIssue]

Isn't it to do with the ancient conflict between them in the Age of Apostasy? The Black Templars were on of the chapters leading the siege of the Imperial Palace, when the Sisters were still the Daughters of the Emperor with Vandire. I can imagine the Black Templars zealously never completely accepting the Sister's continued existence after such a betrayal.

 

Zeal is its own excuse - except for traitors.

[Marshall Bretton]

maybe, but then the daughters of the emperor actually killed vandire themselves after the leader of the custodes took their leader to see the emperor

[Fibonacci]

I think it is because the writters made up a grid of all possible allied combinations (the allies matrix) and then rolled a d4 for each square. It would explain so much

Actually, between the Age of Apostay and the since ret-conned association with the Inqusition, I can see where there would be some animosity between them. Which is a shame since they have such similar goals. Templars to search for human worlds and conqurer them for the emperor and Sisters to establish the curch, escort the missionaries and bring the teaching of the emperor to the new worlds.

[Marshall Bretton]

and don't forget BURNING WITCHES!!!

 

especially if they turn people into newts (even if they do get better) :p

[Irbis]

Siiigh... Not this again. You're aware that fanatics of cause often are greatest enemies of different fanatics of that cause? I mean, Xenos are Xenos, but it is Heresy Within that is the greatest offence to your god. Religious wars of Medieval Europe were particularly brutal when it was Christian vs Christian, much more so than Christian vs Pagan or Christian vs Muslim conflict. Ever heard of Hussities or Katars?
 
Black Templars are atheists, fanatical male crusaders caring little for Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition, they even spit on Codex Astartes, one of most holy works in the Imperium, second only to dictates of the Emperor himself. Why would they be buddies with female zealots they consider insane by mere virtue of worshipping the god Emperor? Tied to institution that is anathema to most Space Marines?
 
Picture it - once BT Officer #53 standing under his Crusade banner celebrating kill count of these heretical Daughters meets Canoness #452 whose armour was once worn by Holy Sister Generica (said armour still bearing scars from BT Chainsword that lopped her head off during the siege)... Why the frak they would meet themselves cordially? :ermm:
 
I mean, look at Wolves and Angels, that drunken brawl between Russ and Lionel is still being roleplayed at every ocasion, and that was much older and less serious event...

[Marshall Bretton]

i was under the impression that the templars worshipped the emperor more than almost any other space marines? might be me getting things mixed up i suppose

 

 

but as i said earlier, take the example of the wolves, they are basically pagan barbarians who have gone to war against the inquisition and the ecclesiarchy on multiple occasions, but they still get to be allies of convenience with them

[Irbis]

i was under the impression that the templars worshipped the emperor more than almost any other space marines? might be me getting things mixed up i suppose

Space Marines are atheists, they (with handful of exceptions) don't do worship

but as i said earlier, take the example of the wolves, they are basically pagan barbarians who have gone to war against the inquisition and the ecclesiarchy on multiple occasions, but they still get to be allies of convenience with them

They are founding Legion, which means a lot more status and assets/alliances than a random, non-copliant offshoot can muster. Second, being barbarians (pretended, in large part) with priests/shamans paradoxically makes them much closer ideologically to Ecclesiarchy than BT are and outside of siege of Fenris (which was not authorized operation) have no bad blood with Sisters.

As for the 1d4 comment, 95% of tiers in alliance matrix makes sense (if only from balance standpoint) to me, if there is something that doesn't to you it might be your limited knowledge of fluff, ever thought of that?

[Marshall Bretton]

yes i had thought of that, hence why im asking the question...

 

 

but if space marines are all atheist why is one of their favourite lines "faith is my shield"?

as far as im aware they worship the emperor, they have chapels, they pray, the get blessing from chaplains, that all seems like worship to me, that is pretty consistent in every piece of post heresy (and some pre heresy) fluff i have ever read

[Inquisitor Fox]

Warning: the following statement treads the grounds of discussing religion on the boards.

 

Faith as a concept does not necessarily require religion.  Religion is an institution and set of doctrine.  I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow because science, reason, and repeated examples show me that it's so even though I cannot say with 100% certainty that it will happen.  Faith can be stated to be belief in something that cannot be 100% proven.  It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with divinity.

 

Warning: the following fluff reasons are my own opinion based on what I have read over time and I cannot quote direct sources.

 

The biggest reason for their distrust is that from the Sororitas point of view, the Black Templars are a bunch of nutters ;)  They flagrantly disregard the edicts of the Ecclesiarchy, they blatantly disregard the Lords of Terra, they blatantly disregard the Inquisition, they blatantly disregard the Codex Astartes.  About the only redeeming quality the Black Templars have is their guns are pointed at heretics.  They refuse to even state their numbers and disposition, meaning they're likely plotting a traitor rebellion against the Imperium to boot ;)

 

To the Black Templars, I would expect that the Sororitas appear as a bunch of chained lapdogs of the heretical Ecclesiarchy going around trying to tell the Astartes that the Emperor somehow became a diety.  They try to enforce a bunch of rulings and statements made by mere mortals on Terra about what the Astartes should and should not do.  They represent Imperial authority that the Templars do not believe applies to them.

 

As a whole, the Astartes acknowledge that the Emperor was an exceptional man.  He was a powerful psyker, he was their father in as many senses of the word are possible save the actual "birth" (although one can argue gene-seed and their re-birth as a Marine is the Emperor fathering them), he was their brother-in-arms.  He was the guide and guardian of mankind... but he was not divine.  They have faith that he had a plan and a purpose, but it's not the same sort of faith in him as a current divine being.  They believe he still guides mankind from the Golden Throne, but that he is still a mortal alive and interned within the golden throne.

 

The Ecclesiarchy (and therefore the Imperial Cult or the religion of man) believe that the Emperor is literally a divine being and therefore is a god.  They worship him in the same fashion as the chaos cults worship the chaos powers.  This is a huge fundamental philosophy change between Astartes and man.

 

The Thorians are a sub-sect of the Inquisition that believe that the spirit of the Emperor has ascended to divinity, and that the shell within the golden throne is no longer the Emperor.  They believe that it is possible (theoretically) for the Emperor to be re-born as a divine avatar, similar to say the avatar of the Eldar.  They believe that from time to time the Emperor puts some of his power in vessels for them to accomplish fantastic feats (such as the living Saints of the Adepta Sororitas, or their name-sake Sebastian Thor).

 

The Machine-cult of Mars believe that the Emperor is/was the living embodiment of the Machine God of technology.  They're a bit wacko themselves too ;)  I don't know as much about the machine cult as I aught...

 

As you can see, religion within 40k is a very complicated subject.  It is one of the major dividing points between Astartes and man.  As a general rule, the Astartes do not follow the Imperial Cult as taught by the Ecclesiarchy.  For most Chapters this isn't enough for them to really be enemies of the Ecclesiarchy... they are just a body of people that completely exist outside of the Ecclesiarchy's influence and control (which means the Ecclesiarchy really doesn't like them).  The Templars take it to a whole new extreme by combining it with the complete and total disregard of just about every institution in the Imperium.  They consider themselves their own masters and just go about on their crusade as they wish.  Thus... essentially heretics in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy.

[thade]

Perhaps a worthy addendum to what's been said: the reason the Astartes don't worship the Emperor as divine is because they were his frontline in attempting to press the Imperial Truth, which was - quite simply - "Abandon all religion, embrace science; your Emperor demands it."

 

With the Big E's ascension to the Golden Throne, the Imperium needed a way to maintain control without the Emperor, and they found it via the Ecclesiarchy. When a giant, greater-than-man, super-powerful Golden Giant Guy comes around demonstrating authority, it's not too hard to believe that people end up worshiping him. The Ecclesiarchy used this to help maintain control.

 

This is really where the tension between Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy is founded. Astartes were used to try and purge worship under the leadership of the Emperor, while the Ecclesiarchy now presses the worship of the Emperor, via the Imperial Cult. Obviously there's a rather blatant contradiction here...the Big E said "Don't worship stuff" and now humans worship him. (Bit of a smack in the face there.) So there's a good amount of tension between the vast majority of Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy for that alone. Both organizations stand on very extreme, opposite sides in a long-lived internal conflict.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I think the simplest answer is that of sectarian difference. Throughout history and even into modern times there is much more strife over minor religious differences than large ones. Religion A may believe Religion B is wrong, but Believer A1 is much more furious with Believer A2 for getting Religion A wrong. That's a massive simplification, but this is Space Knights 38,000 years in the future we're talking about here...

 

They're both Imperials, but each has a highly divergent view of what that means. They're both zealous fanatics, so the more passionate they are about their differences, the less trust there is going to be between them.

 

The Sisters could look at other Space Marines and find them strange, though still the might of the Emperor embodied. When there's a Chapter that is so obviously wrong about the Emperor and the Imperium, the Sisters are going to start remembering that it's a short walk and a long fall for Space Marines. They will definitely keep an eye on anybody that potentially dangerous, considering half of the Legions rallied their banners to Space Satan and betrayed the God Emperor.

[Dosjetka]

Well, this has turned into a very informative thread :) A special thank you to INP, thade and Max for their excellent posts.

[Marshall Bretton]

indeed, very enlightening thanks guys.

 

im guessing it is due to changes in fluff that have caused it but im sure in earlier book the marines did literally worship the emperor as a god, but in newer books (not the heresy ones) they do seem to see him as their father and an all round awesome dude, but not divine

[Knight of the Raven]

In addition to all this, this might be like Blood Angels and necrons leaving each other peacefully after teaming up against tyranids: it didn't make much sense at the time but it did once the necrons' lore was updated. If there is ever a Codex: Sisters of Battle, we might find out reasons (besides those presented here) why they dislike Black Templars more than Space Wolves.

[Kabbala]

If you may recall in the Witch Hunters codex, when you could use allies, you were not allowed to use any Space Marines as allies if there were SOB units present as a "primary detachment."

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, but that was never explained either.

[Fibonacci]

I thought that was more for balance reasons.  You could only have one set of power armored troops at a time. 

 

But in reality, the Witch Hunter codex was the Inqusition codex.  Sisters of Battle were just some the units Inqusitors could take :(

[Greylocke]

I always thought the animosity came about because the Sisters, an awesome army has a scrub WD Codex while the BT a completely lame army that should be relegated to a footnote in the SM Codex somehow scored a 'Dex of their own. But that's just my opinion and I could be totally wrong.