45 replies to this topic

[XKhalilX]

I changed up the history to reflect the idea I was running with in my head, based off Ecritter's mention of it. It gave me the idea of Inner Circle treachery and blackmail between the two chapters.

I feel like my AOE are a chapter of Jason Bournes/Aaron Crosses, betrayed by their own, and hate their cousins for doing it, all while still trying to protect the good and innocent in a galaxy so corrupted.

[Ecritter]

Been a busy few days, I'll give them a look over again soon.  

[NightrawenII]

well, first I'm typing this from my phone so I'm not sure how it will look. Second, DA are my favorite Chapter so take everything I say with pinch of salt. That being said, I didn't enjoy this article, mainly because both AoE and DA hate each other for the same thing they did or are doing. That's too big leap in logic for me to swallow.

[XKhalilX]

nightraven thanks for the honest input.

what are your suggestions that I can do?

ok so disregarding everything I have written. THESE are the key components to the AOE:

1. they hold animosity to all other Unforgiven

2. their origins are very secretive that only the DA know their origins

3. they hunt for the fallen but will not abandon their fellow soldiers (IG, astartes, SOB) to do so.

4. lastly but not the least, I wanted them 13th Founding, which is connected to point 2


and nightraven since you love DA, i have a thread trying to figure out what colors to paint them here:

http://www.bolterand...h-color-scheme/

Edited by XKhalilX, 29 April 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[NightrawenII]

In my opinion, what you have here is not theme, but a number of, I dare to say, inconsistent points. Moreover, those are cosmetic details, so to speak. I would choose one point as top priority, develop it and then incorporate (or drop) the other points.

[XKhalilX]

the main thing i was trying to convey was complete abhorrence of all the other Unforgiven and their origins being a complete and total mystery.
 
here's an idea of how the hatred came about. I was trying to have basically a chapter themed out in a jason bourne style, betrayed by their own. as u read it was inner chapter rebellion. new idea:
 
The chapter in its nascient stages (say half a chapter in strength with the original cadre still in command). i was thinking maybe in the midst of a war, the AOE and other unforgiven were fighting alongside IG and there was a rumor of Fallen nearby, and the unforgiven abandon the cause of the war to hunt the fallen. Some of the AOE original training cadre feel the pull to join the hunt, while the majority of the AOE refuse to abandon the war effort. The CM and remnants of the 1st company join the hunt for the fallen, while Micharius and the first wave of "new" initiates stand to fight alongside the IG. This would put Micharius in charge as the proxy CM.
 
Standing by their human counterparts and fightinig fiercely, the chapter takes HEAVY casualties.
 
The IG view of the DA/Unforgiven is further estranged, given the Unforgiven are notorious for abandoning war efforts if a fallen is reported to be nearby. The AOE however garner respect and admiration for their valiant effort to stay. They feel shame for their cousins and their CM lack of respect for humanity, putting their own selfish motivations over the defense of mankind.
 
Because of this, they refuse to openly acknowledge they are Unforgiven. The chapter refuses to have Thrael return as CM, unanimous in Micharius being their leader. As a "constellation" prize for staying, the DA tithe the remaining geneseed to the AOE, but reclaim the original training cadre and ties are officially severed. The AOE lose vast amount of leadership due to the training cadre returning to the DA, but have all the geneseed tithe given in full to replenish ranks. The DA erase any record of the AOE, deeming them "an Unforgiven failure." The AOE erase their origins tying them to the DA, and erase Thrael and the original training cadre from their history.
 
They are left on their own with no cooperation from the Unforgiven. The twist on the AOE Inner Circle is their Inner Circle are the only ones to know they are DA geneseed and know about the Fallen. The average AOE battle brother, like many astartes chapters in 40k, assume the origins of whose geneseed they are birthed from, remains unknown. In that sense, the chapter looks like a typical "vanilla" chapter.
 
 
how about that? that maybe more plausible then over 1000 astartes turning to chaos. All are still fighting for the Imperium, but the AOE view their cause as a cause for all of humanity, and not just the Unforgiven

Edited by XKhalilX, 30 April 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[XKhalilX]

i like the idea i was running with but i also enjoy the idea in the fluff of "Twice Shamed."

im at a loss as to what to do here.

I think this thread needs to become a discussion idea thread rather then an IA thread. lol

[XKhalilX]

anyone C & C? advice? should i do a complete rewrite? which direction should i take?

u can see my ideas. i guess i need to refine it

[XKhalilX]

so i had an idea of keeping their origins secret, as well making the chapter ever more devious.

so i was thinking, if i go with the original idea of the war of hosts, and traitors in the chapter. i was thinking that the gene tithe that is supposed to go with the mechanicus fleet back to mars to keep in the geneseed data banks.

i was thinking the AOE with the help of the DA (as one last gesture of goodwill and mutual goals of total secrecy) destroy the mechanicus fleet, thereby the geneseed is destroyed, and the AOE remain a mystery, and the DA cover up the attack as a simple Mechanus ships being "lost in the warp" or the escaped "Chaos marines" at Secunda Laterus must have destroyed them as they were leaving the system.

that i believe is a way to make the AOE 13th Founding, as well as grant them a more dubious existence that houses secrets tha are far more sinister then the DA themselves. not only do they have to live with the curse of the Unforgiven and their own fallen, but also live with the fact they had to make a "lie or die" situation in destroying the mechanicus fleet carrying the geneseed tithe, thereby keeping the chapter's origins under wraps. the ad mech fleet being collateral for all that went wrong.

[XKhalilX]

*crickets* anyone?

[Octavulg]

I like the concept of a chapter that rejects the Unforgiven as hypocrites and which holds the secret of the Fallen over the DA to ensure their survival. But there's something off with the current execution, and I can't put my finger on it.

Part of the problem is that you spend too much time making everybody different. The Angels of Reckoning don't need to be oversized or ignoring the Codex. Hell, they don't need a name. Your chapter doesn't need twenty-four hours warning. All you really need to do is establish that for unknown reasons, the AoR found themselves at war with the rest of the Unforgiven, including their "children". They lost (perhaps a brief sidebar with an Inquisitorial report on the ruins of their former home world, destroyed by unknown assailants). And once the war was over, the DA determined that the successor should die, too. But the successor's CM had anticipated this (perhaps he had grown suspicious over the course of the war), since it's what he would do (and that can be what later suggests to him that the DA are massive hypocrites and kind of evil). So he sets up dead drops which will warn the Imperium, and when the DA fleet turns toward his he reveals their existence. The DA withhold their wrath, and the chapter survives.

Then you explain how a lot of the chapter's time is spent setting up more dead drops as the DA find the old ones, how small expeditions have a tendency to go missing, how the successors still go to the Inner Circle meetings occasionally, but are generally absent, etc. Really explore the impact it'd have on the relationship - the successor and the DA both pretending everything is normal while they desperately fight behind the scenes. A cold war, basically.

That should still be a lot shorter than what you have, and more stuff'd happen in it. A lot easier to follow, too, IMO.

Edited by Octavulg, 13 May 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[XKhalilX]

Octavulg, THANK YOU for commenting. You helped me alot with my Children of Eternity if I recall. They turned out great. As you can see, I have ideas with my chapters (past and present), I just have trouble refining the idea.

You said: "So he sets up dead drops which will warn the Imperium, and when the DA fleet turns toward his he reveals their existence. The DA withhold their wrath, and the chapter survives"

by "he reveals their existence." are you stating revealing the drop pods are empty? or you mean revealing the DA secrets?

I like the cold war idea. Smiles in front of other Unforgiven, secret war behind the curtains. and the other Unforgiven keep saying "who the heck are these guys that show up when they feel like it?"

I was wanting to cut down the history and make it very unrevealing, leaving things open, i just didnt know how. So you gave me a pathway, MUCH APPRECIATED.

in terms of the AOR being traitors, and the Imperium having no idea that the AOE even exist, how would i write that in based on your suggesstions? or should it not even be mentioned?

as i said i wanted the AOE to be hidden and more secretive then other Unforgiven, EVEN to other Unforgiven

Edited by XKhalilX, 14 May 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[Octavulg]

You said: "So he sets up dead drops which will warn the Imperium, and when the DA fleet turns toward his he reveals their existence. The DA withhold their wrath, and the chapter survives"<br /><br />by "he reveals their existence." are you stating revealing the drop pods are empty? or you mean revealing the DA secrets?

Dead drops are deposits of information left for someone to pick up. I'm kind of misusing the term, honestly. Dead-man-switched transmitters might be a more accurate term. He just reveals that he's set up the information to go to the Imperium, basically.

<br /><br />I like the cold war idea. Smiles in front of other Unforgiven, secret war behind the curtains. and the other Unforgiven keep saying "who the heck are these guys that show up when they feel like it?"<br /><br />I was wanting to cut down the history and make it very unrevealing, leaving things open, i just didnt know how. So you gave me a pathway, MUCH APPRECIATED.<br /><br />

Not a problem. It's a fun idea.

in terms of the AOR being traitors, and the Imperium having no idea that the AOE even exist, how would i write that in based on your suggesstions? or should it not even be mentioned?<br /><br />as i said i wanted the AOE to be hidden and more secretive then other Unforgiven, EVEN to other Unforgiven<br /><br />

I wouldn't worry about it. The Imperium has a hard enough time keeping track of helpful chapters. If one chapter dropped off the radar a bunch, that wouldn't necessarily shock them. That said, it'd make some sense for the AoE to spend as much time as possible hanging around the Imperium reminding the Imperium that they exist and are good boys. That way, if they go missing, someone might look into it.

Edited by Octavulg, 14 May 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[XKhalilX]

ok thats what i thought you meant. I could picture DA Master Harakiel reporting back to the Supreme Grand Master of the Da after opening the drop pods. perhaps I should make the drop pod message a side bar?

so the basic premise:

Act I: The AOR fall traitor unbeknowest to Imperium. They manage to convince the AOR training the AOE to return back to the chapter, and thus the War of Hosts has begun. Micharius calls for help from the DA, who come and support the AOE. The AOR are nearly destroyed. The traitors in the AOR and AOE go forth to the Eye of Terror, hence becoming the Twice Shamed. The Da send a report to the inquisition stating as much without giving name to the "enemy forces."

Act II: The DA plan to annihilate the AOE as a mop op operation. Micharius saw this coming (and as you said it would be expected). He sends the dead drop pods with a message telling the DA any attempt in eradicating the AOE will spell the end of the Unforgiven. He warns them that he could send the dead drop pods to any inquisitor ship or to Terra with a simple command. This gives the DA Inner Circle chills and are enraged that they have had not seen this coming as their cousins go "Jason Bourne" on them. Micharius demands the DA hand over their gene seed tithe meant for the Ad Mech or else. Begrudingly the DA realize the AOE have the upper hand and grant the tithe to the AOE and let them go free.

Act III: The AOE have cut ties with their origins in regards to official data. Their origins are a complete mystery to everyone but the DA. The AOE show up to Inner Circle Gatherings once in a blue moon, with other Unforgiven not knowing who the heck they are, causing them to be highly suspicious of them.

Act IV: The DA and AOE are constantly fighting a hidden proxy cold war, with the DA frustrated and paranoid that the AOE Inner Circle could spill the beans of the Unforgiven any time. Anytime small missions of a squad or two of DA are reported "lost" or "missing," the DA always suspect the AOE are behind it (part of their paranoia).

that sound about what you were relaying to me?

Edited by XKhalilX, 14 May 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Aegnor]

I like Octavulg's cold war idea as above.

One suggestion - as it stands, it's maybe a bit too black and white that the DAs are the hypocritical jerks and your guys are the reasonable ones. That's fine as far as it goes, but a major element of the universe is that being reasonable, avoiding brutal ruthlessness etc always comes back to bite you.

I wouldn't necessarily change the background, but would maybe just insert a hint that their reasonable approach is leaving them open to exploitation or has been manipulated. Maybe Cypher was active in bringing about the Cold War and in continuing to play the two sides off against each other. Maybe it could be hinted that their approach has seen Fallen escape.

Not suggesting making your guys knowing traitors or malevolent, but maybe a hint that their divergence from the ruthlessness of the DA has negative consequences that they themselves aren't aware of.

[XKhalilX]

i wouldnt say my guys are good. if anything their sinister moves post war only makes them more deceitful on their own blood.

i was thinking perhaps the admech ship that carries 5% comes to collect it. and the AOE convince the DA that the the admech were told about the secrets of the unforgiven and so tjey shoot down the admech vessel, learning that micharius lied to them. to make it more plausible perhaps micharius even puts a brother or two from the AOE on the admech vessel to further the plan of deceit. whether or not the brothers play martyr voluntarily is never stated.

or micharius can show hes willing to do anything to keep things hushed and the AOE left alone by blowing the vessel up himself through his own command, showing tje DA he means business.

that way the AOE have the tithe destroyed and have no ties through official means to connect them to the DA. their origins stand then as a mystery

[TrashMan]

A new, small, depleted chapter threatenting the entire DA Legion?

 

For some reason that kinda doesn't sit well with me.

 

 

Other than that I kinda like it.

[XKhalilX]

the threat from AOE is kept at arms length so they can go about their business as (in their eyes) the true sons of the lion.

they both have dirt on the othe. no ones thr good guy or thr bad guy. the bridge of any cooperation is always covered in eggshells so tread carefully....

[XKhalilX]

modified and revised the IA, reflecting the suggestions by octavulg, trashman, aegnor and others. thanks for the input guys, keeep in comin till you feel it captures everything.

I also updated the marine image to reflect the change in their color scheme.

I am still trying to come up with a Chapter Symbol as well. I want it to be a winged icon of some sort, with two wings.

so far I have thought of these symbols:

1. Chalice between wings
2. Skull with long fang teeth between wings
3. Skull with a sword stabbed through the top between wings
4. Skull with half an Iron Halo crowning it between wings
5. Trident between wings
6. Each wing connected to a scythe, with the scythes crossing

Edited by XKhalilX, 14 May 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[XKhalilX]

anyone? comments on the revisions?

[XKhalilX]

Octavulg and Company, where art thou? My lonely heart beckons for C & C of the new IA.

Edited by XKhalilX, 22 May 2013 - 12:52 AM.