Greyall Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Jasp has a point. Ferrus and his Iron Hands are like the legendary good guy who gets killed before being truly awesome just to convey the threat ao power of the villains - no criticism here, I'm fine with that and, even though I'm not a IH fan, it left that bittersweet taste of seeing the superior warrior getting downed by treachery and underhanded tactics (daemonic possession). Which means it worked. This trope is further pushed by having Ferrus and the Iron Hands being referred to as 'Badasses of the Day. Every day' each time a character ranks the Legions/Primarchs. But unless future stories change that, we won't witness Manus' vaunted superiority - other than him beating Fulgrim for most of the second fight. I'm eager to see how Dorn's death is handled, it might get to be written by ADB in the new Black Legion series, though I'm not sure during which Black Crusade it took place. Maybe Dorn was trying to divert the ship and had to stay at the controls while getting piled on and shot. Maybe daemon princes were involved, etc. Or maybe he simply got careless. We know Dorn wasn't his cold self after the Heresy, even after he reformed the Chapter. He could've become reckless and we know all it takes is a marine getting an opening to cause some serious damage. If only Corswain had aimed for the head...Anyway, we should be prepared to see Dorn going down without THE most epic fight ever. Things like that happen, lucky shots, superior organization, too many numbers. Dorn's tale is meant to be tragic, I think, he's a soldier and a loyal son who got exactly what duty-bound people get...unending troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 It was meant for more believable, don't get me wrong he's still not my fav and I still think his story was wasted in the scheme of things. But I can't accept the whole death scenario only being capable by another primarch. Dorn is a great example. Look at how close angron came from a couple thousand bolter rounds through the chest on wolfs night. I'm just saying I'd rather mannus have a more fitting glorified death. Necrodermis + primarch should be able to topple primarch + part possession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Battles aren't just about power levels and gear, mate. There's strategy, there are mistakes and flashes of technical brilliance, bouts of unstoppable rage, etc. And there is randomness, good and bad luck. Although, in this case, it had something to do with power levels. Ferrus had Fulgrim down -> delivers killing blow -> Fulgrim blocks with the daemon-sword -> pushes Ferrus back and slashes him across the chest -> Ferrus is down -> Fulgrim lets daemon take control -> Ferrus is down for good. Fulgrim did overpower Ferrus, thanks to the Daemon Sword. Both were tired, both were injured, yet Fulgrim's sword gave him greater strength. Then the daemon gave him greater guts. And yes, to my knowledge, daemonic possession/ascension/blessing is probably the most powerful "aura" one can get in the grimdark 40K. It just has a tendency to go wrong for the "blessed", as well. Aside from the necessary power, it's much easier for a Primarch to kill another than it is for an alien or daemon. Primarchs know each other and the very fact that they're brothers alters the ebb and flow of the fight. Look at Guilliman vs Lorgar: it wasn't a curbstomp, but Guilly did add bonus damage out of "Burning Vengeance" while Lorgar lost a bit of, let's say, skill points due to "Guilty am I". Guilliman also landed a pretty good jab on Angron by pointing out how he's always whining about the nails and his lost brothers, but it backfired since Angron's response to every mental dead-end is [more] rage. Lorgar, particularly, seems especially affected (now less so, but still) by having to fight other Primarchs. And his weaker starting personality still shows against determined opponents like Guilliman or Corax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Tactics and skill are pretty huge, specifically Manus' tactic of deciding to take Fulgrim''s warhammer on the noggin in order to get an opening or something. That's pretty bad tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I understand how tactics come into play but when it's a one on one bout to the death I just hated that when reading fulgrim it was over pretty darn quick. Especially with the build up to it, off of ferrus anyway. I love the fight between corax and lorgar on istvaan v just wish it went longer and more brutal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I love the fight between cormac and lorgar on istvaan v just wish it went longer and more brutalHoly mother of God . . . If I ever needed an excuse to stop black-out drinking. Edit: Oh, sure, edit your post so I look like an idiot. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I wrote that the second I woke up. And I may be suffering from a hangover and a mother freaking iPhone autocorrect there. Just so happens I'd love to see one of us go toe to toe with a primarch. Expectation of outcome= red schmear on sidewalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Nah, we'd have plot armor and more luck than the Irish. "Angron, what did I do? I'm sorry, okay?! Jesus, Angron, stop swinging wildly! You're going to bring down the who-- oh God, oh God. Angron? Can you survive being in two pieces like that? Angron? Angron. SNAAAAAAAAAKE." But seriously, I laughed pretty hard when I had first read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Well good news hangover wears off after two nice black coffees but alas now to work to dream all day of 30k and primarchs beating the living day lights out of each other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkByDesign Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Loragar was messed up after the second shot and Angron was badly hurt after taking the full weight of the titan stomping down. Lorgar saved himself cause of a psy shield from what I understand. I also don't think it was an emperor class titan though! ;o) So maybe not that crazy with his natural and armour strength combined?? Thoughts?? Also was Guilman out in the void unaided? I thought he had some kind of shielding also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Guilliman had the luxury of being a ship large enough to have its own, albeit very thin atmosphere. Due to his physiology being so much superior to an Astartes, it allowed him to sustain himself. Although he did come back inside with a few burst blood vessels IIRC. Lorgar did use a psi-shield to defend himself from the plasma blast. What he got hit with was the thermal wash from the plasma. He also did use a psi-shield to try and support Angron, but then he was told off. As for Angron, he caught the Warhound off-balance. All of its weight was being pushed onto its back-foot and he just kept it from being able to shift its weight forward. That was pretty much the only thing that saved him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hejligan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 He doesn't topple a Titan by throwing rocks at it. He smashes a Warhound's cockpit with a hurled boulder when its shields are down. There's a vast difference. Warhounds are pretty damn small, all said. That cockpit is smaller than the room I'm sitting in, and I'm in a pretty damn small room. I think that we can all agree on that the size of Titans have been scaled down so you can actually fit their models on a table. If you want a fourteen metre tall walker (a tad taller than two Baneblade super-heavy tanks stacked on top of each other), then fine, but in my book that most certainly is not the size of a Titan, even if it is the second smallest type of Titan. Fourteen metres may be quite a lot in compared to a human, but it is Titans we are talking about, not the average battle walker. The way that Titans have been scaled down by Games Workshop seems to me to undermine the very concept of what makes a Titan a Titan. Slightly off topic, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Whatever you do Hejligan, never read Storm of Iron. Or anything else that has Warhound Titans in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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