Da scouts and devastation

[cypherkk]

I've been thinking if an army.

 

4 squads of scouts srg w/auspex.

Term. command squad devastation banner 2th/sh. Apothecary

Termy librarian

Drop podding dreads w/heavy flamers

1 To 2tac squads drop podding (for objective grabbing)

Ml dev squads for anti flyer as points allow

 

The scouts infiltrate then Scout for position.in roughly a square. Turn 1 termy's deep strike into the middle of them. Dreads drop in front if them burn out anyone behind aegis line. Libby can support with psychic powers.

 

Tac squads come in turn 2+ to grab objectives.

 

Higher point games add fortress and tech w/power field with devastators to baby sit and anti air.

[Mattias]

Interesting idea, I had been wanting to playtest the interaction of dark angel scouts (camo cloaks & bolters), darkshroud and standard of devastation myself.

 

The idea of setting up a foward firebase with a 2+ cover save (assuming you can grab some ruins) that is kicking out forty bolter shots a turn is appealing.

[IndigoJack]

I also think it's an interesting idea. Unless you have some way of modifying reserves though, I wouldn't count too much on the drop pod tacs. There's a big difference between coming in turn 2 and turn 3 (especially against a BoD list).

 

Also, how does this list handle a drake? I have a feeling one dev squad isn't going to be enough.

[cypherkk]

Well i pointed it out last night. Roughly

 

1500

 

Libby term armor

Command squad apoth, Dev ban., 2th/sh. Cml.

Tech marine pow. field auspex

 

Drop pod dread dual hf

 

4 Scout squads,

 

Fortress, with krakstorm

Dev squad flakk ml though I forget if i upped the number of regular marines

 

 

Speeder with twin mm or hf as needed but this is dropped as it's mostly point filler

 

The techmarine inside fortress Manning interceptor tl lc then next shooting phase switched to krak storm. Dec squad finishes off or attacks flyers.

 

1 St turn is very alpha strike hoping for maximum damage from scouts terminator command squad buffing them and the deep striking dread (death wing assault + Drop pod assault).

 

I didn't camo up the scouts, due to infer tray just making those points a waste

[jeremy1391]

Sergeants cannot get auspexes

[cypherkk]

Well the Scout srgt's, can't, can vet srg's?

[IndigoJack]

nope

[Astorath the Grim]

Tau will cause ya problems, cover saves are worthless with them.

 

Id say the devs and the fortess lascannon is enough for a helldrake

[cypherkk]

This lost was mostly conceived as anti-tau. However it relies heavily in first turn. That's why I wanted auspexs on the srg's.

[twopounder]

Well the Scout srgt's, can't, can vet srg's?

DA got a bit screwed on wargear options. Only IC can take non-weapon wargear from the list and combi-weapon pricing is screwed up.

The problem you'll run into is that the scouts will be spread out in cover, so it will be hard to keep the banner near them. It's a bit pricey to run the dakka banner, so you'll want to maximize it.

I did run a game where I stuck 6 tactical squads and a dakka banner inside an aegis defense line. The result was... well... what you would expect from firing over 200 rounds per turn.

[cypherkk]

That's one way to look at it, and if the scouts rely on cover and camo cloaks yes. However, this is more the best defense is a good offense.

 

And, against tau/chaos, cover would be worthless anyways.

 

Really, I'm thinking survivability through numbers, and again offense. I'm expecting to lose at least 2 squads in the game to shooting, but maybe with proper threatening with the dread(s), and hopefully offensive capability of scouts and fortress/devs, it will be enough to keep some dudes alive. Not necessarily a tournament list though, maybe with fine running and practice.

 

But I'm really wondering if it's going to be worth while for the investment? Doesn't seen to be too many holes in it, though I'd like more anti-tank... I have a sickness, and the only cure is more anti-tank.

[IndigoJack]

How many more scouts are you getting over tac marines? Honestly, it may be worth the 2 extra points per model for BS4 alone, not to mention power armor. And yes, you have a real lack of anti-tank. I'd recommend something twin-linked that can work as AA in a pinch. Personally, I'd recommend the rifledread.

[twopounder]

How many more scouts are you getting over tac marines? Honestly, it may be worth the 2 extra points per model for BS4 alone, not to mention power armor. And yes, you have a real lack of anti-tank. I'd recommend something twin-linked that can work as AA in a pinch. Personally, I'd recommend the rifledread.

 

It's a trade off in abilities. Scouts with cloaks and sniper rifles can be extremely annoying to the enemy. You have 10 shots with rending and precision strike, which means you can potentially remove squad leaders and heavy weapons in a nice fashion. Bolters with the banner could make a 24" zone of death with only 2 or 3 squads.

 

I wouldn't run it as a tournament list, but it piques my interest to try.

[march10k]

Tau will cause ya problems, cover saves are worthless with them.

 

Id say the devs and the fortess lascannon is enough for a helldrake

 

 

Overstated.  Any given squad's cover save is useless if the game depends on it, but when the entire army is counting on them, they can't strip all of them all the time.  And any markerlight that's reducing the cover save of a scout isn't doing something else instead.  Spamming scouts into 2+ cover sounds like a fantastic way to make the tau player realize that he doesn't have enough markerlights.

[Brother Immolator]

 Spamming scouts into 2+ cover sounds like a fantastic way to make the tau player realize that he doesn't have enough markerlights.

Which vs a player worth his/her salt is aint gonna happen IMHO.

 

Plus once cover begins to be stripped the high STR low AP of the tau guns, is going to remove the scouts piece meal and thats without taking their supperior range and the lack of any kind longrange/anti tank weapons in the list above into account. The tau can field an impressive amount of variable models in 1500 list.\

[IndigoJack]

If I was running a scout army, I'd have at least 4 10man scout squads that I'd combat squad. That's 8 targets already. Throw in some RW bikes and you're going to have a difficult time removing that many cover saves. Most tau armies I've seen have at most 3 dedicated units of marker lights and maybe a few extras sprinkled in. Honestly, you're never going to remove enough cover to put a sizable dent in a scout army built around cover saves.

[cypherkk]

The scouts primarily will be used for the infiltrating and Scout ability. Even without the Dev. Banner that's an impressive 80 bolters first turn. Additionally, it allows for deployment control, which is board control.

 

The rifle dreads. I've thought about replacing the fortresses with 2 but I'm unsure if they will equate to the killing power of the krak storm and icarus, but in certain lists a viable option especially protected by a pf techmarine.

 

I certainly don't discount the use of camo cloaks, however in this first list incarnation I ran out of points. And I would like to add a couple of sniper squads for higher points or taking on nids.

 

The advantage of being Able to combat squad depending on the situation could be invaluable and always an option.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

The scouts infiltrate then Scout for position

That's illegal, you first make Scout moves, Infiltrate last. You cannot Scout from where you infiltrated.

[Brother Immolator]

If I was running a scout army, I'd have at least 4 10man scout squads that I'd combat squad. That's 8 targets already. Throw in some RW bikes and you're going to have a difficult time removing that many cover saves. Most tau armies I've seen have at most 3 dedicated units of marker lights and maybe a few extras sprinkled in. Honestly, you're never going to remove enough cover to put a sizable dent in a scout army built around cover saves.

 

4 five man scout squads without cover is 4 man scout squads dead vs a tau army. Especially if your entire tactics revolve arround them you are begging to have them wiped out. Tau can realiably kill an entire consentrated marine squad in cover per round if they consentrate their firepower. Scouts (especially if combat squaded or fielded in half numbers) dont have the resilience to stand the firestorm heading their way. Even a marine squad can kill five scouts in an opening salvo with a tiny bit of luck.

 

Unless you field a tech marine to boltster your cover (and assuming all of your scouts have cammo cloaks) or a derp speeder you only need a reduction of one per squad. Now chances are that you wont be able to find cover 3++ cover for your entire army. Even if you do it will be reduced to 4++ and in effect you are where you started.

 

I dont know, I love my scouts but I am not convinced that they can reliably be fielded as the backbone of an army. Especially against tau or guard. By fielding scouts you grant their wish.

[IndigoJack]

You're focusing on the S in and not the M in MSU (Multiple Small Units). Sure one 5 man scout squad gets wiped out. There are still 5 more. Can you remove another one? what about the rest of the army bearing down on you?

[Brother Immolator]

You're focusing on the S in and not the M in MSU (Multiple Small Units). Sure one 5 man scout squad gets wiped out. There are still 5 more. Can you remove another one? what about the rest of the army bearing down on you?

Problem is still, that you will run out of troop choices.

[BigGumbo]

 

 

The scouts infiltrate then Scout for position

That's illegal, you first make Scout moves, Infiltrate last. You cannot Scout from where you infiltrated.

Um, no, actually: deploy non-infiltrators, then deploy infiltrators, then make Scout redeployments. According to the rulebook FAQ it is perfectly legal to infiltrate and scout redeploy from there.

[IndigoJack]

 

You're focusing on the S in and not the M in MSU (Multiple Small Units). Sure one 5 man scout squad gets wiped out. There are still 5 more. Can you remove another one? what about the rest of the army bearing down on you?

Problem is still, that you will run out of troop choices.

If your opponent focused only on removing troops and didnt care about the other half of your army. And assuming he did all this before you crippled his markerlight support.

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

You're focusing on the S in and not the M in MSU (Multiple Small Units). Sure one 5 man scout squad gets wiped out. There are still 5 more. Can you remove another one? what about the rest of the army bearing down on you?

Problem is still, that you will run out of troop choices.

If your opponent focused only on removing troops and didnt care about the other half of your army. And assuming he did all this before you crippled his markerlight support.

Yes agreed, but wiping out 20 scouts can be done with (good rolling) by the tau in two turns or (with bad rolling) 4. And the heavy weapons guys are not going to shoot at scouts anyway. Dont underestimate the humble firewarrior or the more humble kroot snipper.

The heavy weapons will fire what they fire anyway.

 

Assuming that your opponent for some reason (bad list, new to the game, new to tau etc) does tottaly ignore your armor, you are left with non scorring vehicles. There are only a couple of senarios that will see you win this.

 

I am not trying to be a jerk / throw the list out of the window or try to stop anyone from fielding it, I just dont think that a tau army will flinch for even one second against it. All in all it will be a very fun list, but if someone plans on playing seriously with it, he better not face tau,necrons, guard or chaos space marines. Deamons too now that I think of it...

[IndigoJack]

The example I gave had 30 scouts, but I would likely run 40. That's 8 5man units, and ideally, they're all benefitting from the banner. No tau army can remove cover saves from 8 units, and most can't do it to 4. There just isn't enough markerlight love to go around. Scouts that didn't get their cover save striped can go to ground. Do this with a libby on a bike so he can join a unit in his movement phase to pop them back up (because he is fearless). If you have azzy, they're ld10 and not to likely to run. Will all of this, you still have 700-800 points left. Take some bikes, now your opponent has more things that need cover stripped from. The point I'm trying to make is you can't look at just the scouts because the rest of the army is going to dictate how your opponent orders it by threat level.

 

I understand that you're not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to get you to see beyond tau>scouts. That's not something you can say without seeing both lists. Even then, the randomness of the dice and the skill of the players can make up for perceived deficiencies in the lists. My point is that you cannot say "a" will beat "b". You cannot look at a unit in a vacuum.