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Batrep: DW vs C:SM w/ Vassal!(pics)


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#1
[TA]Typher

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Brothers,


It's that time again. I know I haven't had a batrep for a couple of weeks, but really I've been disappointed in the April FAQ and I haven't had any games worth noting. Getting cleared from the board by turn 3 makes for a horrid batrep. I do have another game to mock up and post VS Orks... it was a real nail biter and the ending was very good. But... all in due time.

This game was 1750 vs Vanilla Marines. I imagined that they were some perverse chapter from Guilliman that had fallen to the dark powers.

This was the first time I played this opponent and I had seen him play other people and I was pretty sure I could tell how this would end.... ugly.


His List

Librarian Sevrin Loth (sp?) Forgeworld character lvl 3 psyker that knows all the C:SM powers, Fearless and a power that gives him a 2+ Invul save. ... ugh... I hate Forgeworld

5x Terminators: Power Fists/Storm Bolter + Ass cannon

5x Terminator: 5x Thunder hammers/Storm Shields

5x marines: Sgt with combi-melta, plasma gun 3x marines (combat squad)
5x marines: Lascannon, 4x marines (combat squad)

5x marines: Sgt with combi-melta, plasma gun 3x marines (combat squad)
5x marines: Lascannon, 4x marines (combat squad)
Rhino

5x marines: Sgt with combi-melta, plasma gun 3x marines (combat squad)
5x marines: Lascannon, 4x marines (combat squad)
Rhino

Land Speeder: Typhoon missile launchers, Hvy Bolter

Tech Marine w/ Thunderfire cannon

Tech Marine w/ Thunderfire cannon

Dreadnought with a multimelta in a drop pod



My List

Belial w/Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

Librarian w/Term Armor and Force Staff ( I took the primus power in divination, prescience (sp?))

5x Deathwing Knights

Command Squad w/ Banner of Fortitude, 4x Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, Heavy Flamer

5x Terminators Sgt with Powersword, 2x Thunderhammers, CML, 2 Storm Bolters/powerfists

5x Terminators Sgt with Powersword, 2x Thunderhammers, CML, 2 Storm Bolters/powerfists

Land Raider Crusader w/ Multimelta

Raven Wing Bike Squad 3x bikes + 1 Attack bike with a Multimelta


I normally don't use a mixed wing list, in fact I'm not happy with it, but our 6th edition codex really gives us little choice.






Batrep1-0-0_zps2b4faa15.jpg

The Table and Deployment

We rolled Vangaurd strike for deployment and the Scouring for mission type.

I rolled higher but allowed him to go first. I really wanted to see how he deployed. He had a lot of firepower there and I needed to minimize my exposure to it.


For His Reserves

He had the drop pod Dread

and he held back the two term units.

He placed is Warlord (the Librarian) with a combat squad (one of the SGT/Plasma ones) and placed them in a Rhino (the Right one)

In the other Rhino he placed another Sgt lead combat squad.



For My Reserves

I placed both troop choices (Normal Terms) into reserve along with the Deathwing command squad

Belial and the Deathwing Knights embarked in the Landraider.



I tried to deploy in a way that limited fire, but still left room to run forward with my landraider.

For my scout move I tried to take cover behind the middle building, but didn't do a great job. It was my first time using the bikers and really only wanted them for the additional Teleport homers.

I made a secret note on my phone to DWA on turn 2.


Batrep1-1-0_zps8aed591a.jpg

Ultra's Turn 1

His drop pod rocketed to the ground, only to come to a halt as it's retro thrusters exploded to life. Like a birthed giant the Dreadnought exited the fallen star, it's multi-melta already powering up! it fired but only rolled a only a glance!

His thunderfire cannon to the left fired it's tremor rounds at the landraider, hitting it. Even though he couldn't turn it , his goal here was to make it roll a dangerous terrain test if it moved.

On the right side of the board a barrage of fire killed three of my bikers. I didn't position them that great, and I gave him a few more shots then he was probably allowed to make. No point arguing in a friendly game. The attack bike rolled and passed his morale check.

Edit: This actually gave him First Blood. Stupid attack bikes rules :P


Batrep1-1-1_zpse1778403.jpg

DA Turn 1

On my turn I moved the attack bike behind the large building in the center of the board. I tried to move my landraider forward but rolled a 1 on my terrain test!!!! NOOOOO immobilized! Craptastic!

With no option left Belial ordered his unit out.

In the shooting phase the attack bike shot the dread in the back with it's multi-melta. I rolled a 4 on the pen table and added the +2 for the melta. The ancient warrior boiled inside his metal husk before exploding in a shower of ceramite and dark fluids.

Belial pointed and his unit of Deathwing Knights charged the drop pod. The maces hammering the immobile vehicle until it lay in a wrecked mess. (glanced it to death)



Batrep1-2-1_zpsf2e083ae.jpg

Ultra's Turn 2

With a loud pop and crackling arch's of blue lightning his unit of terminators materialized near Belial's group. The misguided marines cycled weapons and fired on the Master of the Deathwing!

With little useful cover Belial's squad came unit intense fire from pretty much his whole army, killing 3 of the veteran Knights.

Belial gritted his teeth and vowed revenge!



Batrep1-2-2_zps8bcc4e68.jpg

DA Turn 2

DEATHWING ASSAULT!!!!

With the Assault Bikes Teleport homer sparking to life they came. Like three grand explosions of light and energy each of the terminator units spawned to life on the battle field. I used the building limit exposure to enemy fire.

The command squad shot it's hvy flamer at the enemy terminators, killing 1. The Landraider followed suit killing 1 also.

The two other term units shot at the rhino with his warlord, but only managed 2 hull points of damage.

Belial charged the enemy terminators, determined to bring ruin on them. Overwatch killed another knight, but Belial and the last Knight reached the enemy. With an activated mace the Knight swung. In combat Belial and the remaining Knight crushed the three, killing them to the man. They consolidated toward one of the thunderfire cannons.

Belial whispered to the arcane machine "death is coming for you"



Batrep1-3-2_zpsbeb6941d.jpg

Ultra's Turn 3

Turn three brought more of the same from the traitor marines.

One of his combat squads ran around the back of his occupied building, hoping to get a shot off on Belial's group next turn. The landspeeder flew to the right, adding his fire to the already high volume shots that the marines were pouring into one of the term units. I made all my saved except three, but the Banner of Fortitude saved two of those!!

On the other side of the building the command squad took fire, losing one terminator.

Beliial's squad took fire from a lascannon, but the shields held.



Batrep1-3-3_zps01ff2254.jpg

DA Turn 3

Belial and the remaining knight rushed forward trying to shelter in the base of the building.

All my terms shifted to the right. They all shot at the Speeder causing it to be stunned. Dang! that should have been an easy VP! (I rolled horrible)



Batrep1-4-3_zps2c8e03ea.jpg

Ultra's Turn 4

His last unit of Terms arrived, porting in near my combined units on the right. Their thunder hammers smashed against their shields. His warlord and his boyguard exited the rhino and attempted to cast vortex of doom (str 10 AP 1) on my terms, but he rolled double 6s! The blast struck his unit instead killing 2. (I forgot to show the two guys dead.. .sorry)

The unit that had made the long journey behind his building reached a good firing point and shot at Belial's group. Plasma and a combi-melta fired, killing the last Knight. Belial's fury was near explosive!

The rest of his army shot at one of the term units, causing several wounds. I made a couple of feel no pain rolls and only one term died!



Batrep1-4-4_zps414a11fe.jpg

DA Turn 4

I split fired my CML's at the speeder, but horrible rolls denied me any glances or pens. The Command squad and one of the Term troops charged the thunderhammer Terms that just arrived. In combat the two units killed the enemy terms to the man, while losing no one in return! The amount of hits my terms pumped out was immense! The Librarian's psyker power was very helpful! both units consolidated back toward the 4 point objective.

Belial scaled the building and charged the Techmarine that had been responsible for so many wounds on the knights. Overwatch caused a wound on the Master of the Deathwing, but he carried on! The poor traitor marine was turned to pulp under his vengeful strikes. I consolidated into the corner to help protect my warlord from return fire.

My three man term unit tried to charge one of the closest combat squad, but failed the charge. Overwatch failed to harm them.



Batrep1-5-4_zps5b1cc7c8.jpg

Ultra's Turn 5

In the movement phase his speeder turbo boosted toward one of the objectives, which turned out to be worth 3 points. This could not go unanswered.

Massed fire shot at the three man term unit, killing two.

The combat squad tried to kill Belial, but his shield turned back the worst of it.

His warlord cast his ability to have an invul 2+ save, Null zone (all enemies within 24 inches rerolls successful invul saves) and force dome and votrex of doom on my Librarian's unit!

We rolled for Deny the Witch. He rolled a 2 and I rolled a 6! The power fizzled and died. Woohoo!


Batrep1-5-5_zps64f0dbca.jpg

DA Turn 5

Seeing how this was turn 5 I tried to shore up as many points as possible, just in case the game ended.

My ravenwing attack bike, which had been hiding up to this point turbo boosted to contest the 3point objective.

Belial moved through the building and charged the combat squad in the building, killing three. They failed their morale check on purpose and fell back, Belial consolidated on the closest object.

The 1 man term unit moved to hold the 4 point objective. I split fired and both CML's fired at, and failed to kill the speeder.

The Deathwing command squad and the other term unit both charged the enemy librarian. The combat was brutal. His librarian challenged but I refused. (I hate refusing, but I needed to kill him). My librarian didn't get to attack this round. His librarian had a force axe. in the issuing battle I lost two terminators from the command squad, but he lost his remaining tact troops. Hammered into the ground his librarian had to try to save 17 2+ invuln saves..... he failed. * Squish * Slay the warlord was mine.

The term unit consolidated back toward the 4 point objective and the command unit when forward toward the 2 point objective that he still held.



He rolled and the game continued.


Batrep1-6-5_zps71aacbc0.jpg

Ultra's Turn 6

the combat squad that had been shooting at belial moved, but couldn't get a good angle to shoot him again.

One of his rhinos charged the 1 point objected and the combat squad inside exited. They, coupled with the speeder shot at the attack bike causing only 1 wound! He cursed.

A majority of his forced shot at the imcomming DW command squad, and I made several armor saves and 2 feel no pains. I had placed the librarian closer on purpose and he took a wound, saving the Banner.



Batrep1-6-6_zps74aba4fd.jpg

DA Turn 6


My DW command squad moved up and contested the 2 point objective. I tried to charge but rolled double 1s.

I moved my full Term unit in a half-circle protecting the 4 point objective from a counter charge just in case we went to turn 7.

The CMLs and the attack bike blew up the speeder contesting the 3 point objective. My immobile landraider killed three of the marines holding the 1 point objective but they held firm.



I rolled and the game continued.


My opponent told me that he didn't think he could win and conceded the game at this point.



Final score

Vanilla (Traitor marines): 1 point object + 1 first blood + 1 killpoint for fast attack = 3 VP

DeathWing: 3 point object + 4 point object +1 slay the warlord + 1 Linebreaker + 1 killpoint for fast attack = 10 VP

Crushing Victory.


We shook hands and talked abit about each others strengths and weakness.

I told him that he should have focused one unit down at a time. Seeing how I only have so many units and even fewer scoring units. Immobilizing my landraider on my first turn was devastating and it cost me all my DW knights. He only rolled 1 miscast for his psyker, who cast his armor spell every round and multiple spells in the last few turns.

The thunderfire cannons caused multiple wounds, causing a majority of the wounds I took. The three lascannons he took failed to do any real damage. Storm shields and misses negated their usefulness. They did however kill one of the bikers in the beginning of the game, which I positioned poorly. I also only moved them 6 inches instead of the 12 inches scout should have allowed them. It would have saved them from getting hammered the first turn. Oh well, live and learn.

I negated his terms by using overwhelming force against them. The first to drop down (the ones near belial) got shot up by everyone, and with empowered mace and Belials thunder hammer I easily won.

The second unit of terms had to face two units of terms AND a Librarian unit that made his squad reroll hits. Overwhelming force FTW.

All in all it was a fun game. Not facing Tau was a refreshing change of pace.




IMG_4037_zpsce306660.jpg

My MVP, Belial. Crushing a Term unit, thunderfire cannon, and a tac unit (that included a lascannon) and Denying a object made for a good time!

IMG_4018_zps85452336.jpg

Librarian Esciel was a good runner up. His reroll hit ability really helped his unit crush the Thundernators and helped in the assault on the enemy warlord His psykic hood saved his unit from a ability that would have surely killed terms!

IMG_4007_zpsf6d86d50.jpg

LVP (least Valuable player): Sure he killed some marines, a term and basically held his area of the board but being immobilized on turn doomed the Knights to a footslogging death.


Holding the middle like I did and protecting my units from as much fire as I could helped out a lot. He had a good chance to win, with his Librarian's powers. If he could have held the 2 point objective, killed my attackbike and taken the 3 point objective and killed Belial. Thankfully he didn't




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++Astartes Clearance code: Omega Vengence

++++Location: Trydal III



Belial scanned the battle field. Dark blue astartes armor littered the ground. Here and there the large white husk of a fallen Terminator lay. The battle had been a clear victory for the Angels. Guilliman's rogue stock had been culled. He cursed himself, his losses had been too many. although light compared to the carnage wrought on the traitor marines, each death was felt heavily by the finite Deathwing.

In the distance random fire split the silence as kill squads finished off any surviving traitors that happened to live through their initial assault. He could see the bright pops of light erupt at distance moments before the dislocated sound reached him.

The support crews were now arriving and to his right he could see an Apothicary leading a horde of chapter serfs through the fallen. Each green-clad worker moving at the practiced direction of the Astartes medic. some could be saved, but not all.

Belial made a mental vow to remember all the fallen here.


On the other side of the battle field Librarian Eschiel looked down at the fallen Enemy Librarian. The Dark blue of his armor was splattered crimson around the rending tears in his armor. Whatever was left of the Astartes head was lost amidst the crumpled helm that looked impossibly to small now. Around the dead marines neck a amulet sparkled.

Eschiel looked at it for a moment as it seemed to beckon to him. It was hard to hear at first, but after a few moments it became clear. It was a voice. Not bitter and harsh as one would expect such a trapping to be, but instead it was soft and sweet. It reminded him of a patient teacher or a caring father. It told him to reach for it. it flashed a vision of him, leading the Angels. Strong and brilliant he would answer the call of the universe, correct those wrongs done to his chapter. He could lead them, show them the path. He would learn so much and all he had to do was reach his hand out.

It transfixed him. It took several moments before he realized someone else was talking to him. It as Brother Nariel. Pulled from his trance he looked at the confused Terminator. The stark white armor the terminator wore seemed to fit the oversized flamer attached to his right arm.

"Sir? what do you want us to do with the Enemy witch?"

Without a second thought he answered and turned to walk away.

"Burn him.. and all his belongings."


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++End Log+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edited by [TA]Typher, 06 May 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#2
berzerkermike84

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best.battle.report.ever!



#3
Tiger9gamer

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awesome job and comgratz on the victory ^_^

"There is an art to dying, but it is a dying art."

           -Corvus Corax

 

"War is the science of destruction."
 
-John Abbott

 

 


#4
Master Avoghai

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Very good bat rep indeed and congrats for the win. Seems that the Emperor made a glance to some of your dice rolls... :D

I have nothing to say about how you handled your termis as I think you used them pretty well. Since you admit that it's the 1st time you used your bikes then my advice will focus on them.

1st I disagree with your MVP : for me it's clearly the AB. Those 2 guys, killed a dread, a LS and grab an objective. It's nearly 250pts worth of models and 4VP for a 60pts model... That's what I call a MVP lol

I don't understand why, knowing you won't get the 1st turn, you deployed them in LoS of half of your opponent's weapons.
That way , you lost 3 teleport homers and a fast unit capable to grab an objective. In the same time you gave him 2 VP : one for the scouring special objective, one for the 1st blood.

(Actually you didn't get the 1st blood, he did. The 3 bikes squad and the AB are 2 separate units hence he was the 1st to destroy an entire unit)

Personally I would have deployed them separately: each on each corner of your deployment zone. The AB on your left flank, the 3bikes on the top right. Then I would have use the scout move to zoom out behind the building on the left with the AB and behind the hill on the right with the bikes. With the central teleport homer of Belial in the crusader it would have gave you room to choose where you wanted to strike.

Moreover it would have forced your opponent to make hard choice : DS a termi squad in front of the AB or the bikes? They would have been too far from the rest of the battle. Remain on the center like he did? Then you could use the TH on your right and teleport your termis on the hill and grab 2 objectives. Here again he would have been too far..
Shoot with the tech ? Then he would have spent an costly weapon to destroy a 60pts model and would have let the crusader approaching.

I often see people using the speed of their bikes to reach the enemy's lines. I think it's an error. Particularly if you use them to carry teleport homer. Don't forget a TH allows you to deploy a DS unit within 6". That means you can hide behind terrain and deploy your termis further.


Use your speed to avoid opponent rather to get closer. IMO it's the key with bikes.

Hope that helps.

Master Avoghai,

"Eat a beaver you'll save a tree"
Old proverb from the Plains World

My Humble Tribute to Brother Argos thread

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#5
Wraith776

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Great Batrep, first one i've read and i loved it, especially the section right at the end and the pictures from vassal.


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment - Isidor Akios


#6
elphilo

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Great report as always!

Just a question, what does this mean?

Quote
We rolled for Deny the Witch. He rolled a 2 and I rolled a 6! The power fizzled and died. Woohoo!

Did you play the old version of the psychic hood where you roll and compare leaderships? If so, the Marine FAQ changed it to use the rules in the BRB for hoods.

Regardless, it was a great report and I can't wait for the next one! smile.png

Path_to_Redemption_07BP.jpg Img_CH00_08Awards_02_LPC_2013B.gif


#7
Master Avoghai

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I'm also wondering? What are those objctives point values? In the scouring, the objectives are all worth 3pts huh.png


Master Avoghai,

"Eat a beaver you'll save a tree"
Old proverb from the Plains World

My Humble Tribute to Brother Argos thread

ETL_VI_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment_.jpggallery_4664_5295_5937.gifPearl_of_Ultramar_Badge_Small_V2.jpg


#8
RayJ

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Another question: why did your attack bike roll a leadership test when the 3 bikers in front of him died? Attack bikes in RAS are always separate units via RW Combat Squads.



#9
[TA]Typher

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I'm also wondering? What are those objctives point values? In the scouring, the objectives are all worth 3pts http://image.boltera.../huh.png[/url"]http://image.boltera...default/huh.png"]http://image.boltera...default/huh.png[/url[/url]]

Page 129 of the rule book (the big one) in the scouring scenerio rules it says

"After setting up the terrain, the players take it in turns to place
a total of 6 primary Objective markers face down on the table
(don't look!). There should be one marked with a 4, two marked
with 3's, two with 2's and a single l. Immediately before deciding
whether or not to attempt to Seize the Initiative, flip the six
markers over to reveal how many Victory Points they are worth."



I don't understand why, knowing you won't get the 1st turn, you deployed them in LoS of half of your opponent's weapons.
That way , you lost 3 teleport homers and a fast unit capable to grab an objective. In the same time you gave him 2 VP : one for the scouring special objective, one for the 1st blood.

(Actually you didn't get the 1st blood, he did. The 3 bikes squad and the AB are 2 separate units hence he was the 1st to destroy an entire unit)

I wasn't completely clear on the scout move. The Ultra player still had the rule book open so I asked him to re-check the scout rule for me. He said I can only move them 6". I placed the bike on right side, because he had less firepower there. Both of his Thunderfire cannons shouldn't have been able to hit me, but when he told me his intention to shoot one of them at the bikes I voiced my objection about line of sight, but allowed him to do it anyways, because it was a friendly game. It was only later when I read the scout rule for myself did I learn they should have moved 12', which would have had them firmly hidden.

I don't think he told me the wrong info on purpose.. it was just one of those things.

As for First blood..

In the C:DA On page 101 it says that I can include a attack bike in a Ravenwing Attack Squad for 45 points (and +10 for a MM). so... I don't understand what you are saying. Unless I'm reading this wrong they are all in the same unit. If I am correct he did not destroy the whole unit and did not get first blood.

What am I missing?

Edit: OK, I see the special rule for Attack bikes now. You are correct. I don't know why I HAVE to make them a separate unit. It's kind of lame. It should be a option to separate, not a mandatory one. Leaving them in the group and giving them split fire would have been a much better solution, but whatever. Thanks again for the correction.

Personally I would have deployed them separately: each on each corner of your deployment zone. The AB on your left flank, the 3bikes on the top right. Then I would have use the scout move to zoom out behind the building on the left with the AB and behind the hill on the right with the bikes. With the central teleport homer of Belial in the crusader it would have gave you room to choose where you wanted to strike.

Moreover it would have forced your opponent to make hard choice : DS a termi squad in front of the AB or the bikes? They would have been too far from the rest of the battle. Remain on the center like he did? Then you could use the TH on your right and teleport your termis on the hill and grab 2 objectives. Here again he would have been too far..
Shoot with the tech ? Then he would have spent an costly weapon to destroy a 60pts model and would have let the crusader approaching.

I often see people using the speed of their bikes to reach the enemy's lines. I think it's an error. Particularly if you use them to carry teleport homer. Don't forget a TH allows you to deploy a DS unit within 6". That means you can hide behind terrain and deploy your termis further.


Use your speed to avoid opponent rather to get closer. IMO it's the key with bikes.

Hope that helps.

Thanks! this is good advice. My main goal with the bikes was to ensure that I had tele-homers where I needed them. the usefulness of the bikes beyond that was merely a bonus. I have never used bikes before. My main focus has always been either the DW of the greenwing. I'll be sure to remember this!




Great report as always!

Just a question, what does this mean?




Quote
We rolled for Deny the Witch. He rolled a 2 and I rolled a 6! The power fizzled and died. Woohoo!

Did you play the old version of the psychic hood where you roll and compare leaderships? If so, the Marine FAQ changed it to use the rules in the BRB for hoods.

Regardless, it was a great report and I can't wait for the next one! http://image.boltera...mile.png[/url"]http://image.boltera...fault/smile.png"]http://image.boltera...fault/smile.png[/url[/url]]
You are correct.. we did this wrong, but either way the result was the same.

I understand my failing and will be sure to correct it.








Thanks for the feedback and likes guys. These vassal reports take awhile to make and as boring as they are to do they do look neat. As long as you guys keep liking them I;ll keep doing them.

Edited by [TA]Typher, 06 May 2013 - 07:42 PM.


#10
Master Avoghai

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Page 129 of the rule book (the big one) in the scouring scenerio rules it says

"After setting up the terrain, the players take it in turns to place
a total of 6 primary Objective markers face down on the table
(don't look!). There should be one marked with a 4, two marked
with 3's, two with 2's and a single l. Immediately before deciding
whether or not to attempt to Seize the Initiative, flip the six
markers over to reveal how many Victory Points they are worth."


Aaah ! See now.. You know I think I've only picked this game twice and read the rule in diagonal ... Looks so much like the other that I treated the objective like standard 3pts one.

On the scout move : that's something you must keep in mind for further games as well as another rule : always read a rule by yourself.
Trust never excludes checking. ;)

As for First blood..

In the C:DA On page 101 it says that I can include a attack bike in a Ravenwing Attack Squad for 45 points (and +10 for a MM). so... I don't understand what you are saying. Unless I'm reading this wrong they are all in the same unit. If I am correct he did not destroy the whole unit and did not get first blood.

What am I missing?


The rules for RW attack squadron rules p47

"The LS and AB always operate as separate units"

As separate units they count as separate unit for LD test and victory point. That's what makes the AB useful but difficult to handle. I prefer keep them in reserve and outflank in order to prevent first blood and put pressure on my opponent in the following turns.

Master Avoghai,

"Eat a beaver you'll save a tree"
Old proverb from the Plains World

My Humble Tribute to Brother Argos thread

ETL_VI_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment_.jpggallery_4664_5295_5937.gifPearl_of_Ultramar_Badge_Small_V2.jpg


#11
[TA]Typher

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Page 129 of the rule book (the big one) in the scouring scenerio rules it says

"After setting up the terrain, the players take it in turns to place
a total of 6 primary Objective markers face down on the table
(don't look!). There should be one marked with a 4, two marked
with 3's, two with 2's and a single l. Immediately before deciding
whether or not to attempt to Seize the Initiative, flip the six
markers over to reveal how many Victory Points they are worth."

Aaah ! See now.. You know I think I've only picked this game twice and read the rule in diagonal ... Looks so much like the other that I treated the objective like standard 3pts one.

On the scout move : that's something you must keep in mind for further games as well as another rule : always read a rule by yourself.
Trust never excludes checking. ;)

As for First blood..

In the C:DA On page 101 it says that I can include a attack bike in a Ravenwing Attack Squad for 45 points (and +10 for a MM). so... I don't understand what you are saying. Unless I'm reading this wrong they are all in the same unit. If I am correct he did not destroy the whole unit and did not get first blood.

What am I missing?

The rules for RW attack squadron rules p47

"The LS and AB always operate as separate units"

As separate units they count as separate unit for LD test and victory point. That's what makes the AB useful but difficult to handle. I prefer keep them in reserve and outflank in order to prevent first blood and put pressure on my opponent in the following turns.


yeah I already corrected myself. It's a stupid rule, that should have been replaced with split fire, but like the DW Sgt's loudout, there isn't much I can do about it. Next time I'll take another bike and leave the AB at home.

#12
Isiah

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Great batrep -- love the vassal pics. Congrats on the victory.

Cheers
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#13
Master Avoghai

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yeah I already corrected myself. It's a stupid rule, that should have been replaced with split fire, but like the DW Sgt's loudout, there isn't much I can do about it. Next time I'll take another bike and leave the AB at home.

This is not a "stupid" rule... It's just a different way to play them

 

Yes an AB alone could be fragile but like I said you can outflank it if you fear the 1st blood. One AB is also easier to hide than 4 bikes.

It gives you flexibility. Lots of opponent forgets that AB have a teleport homer and sometimes they won't shoot at it because it doesn't represent a threat, so the following turn you'll be able to DS your termi.

It also forces your opponent to split his fire on a 50pts model rather than on your costly terminators. Sure you'll lose 50pts under a plasma cannon but what if it was 3 termis?

 

Just look at what the AB did alone during all game finally : a dread, a LS, 4 victory points... How could you say it's a "stupid" rule?


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#14
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Well done Typher. I good read and congrats.



#15
[TA]Typher

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yeah I already corrected myself. It's a stupid rule, that should have been replaced with split fire, but like the DW Sgt's loudout, there isn't much I can do about it. Next time I'll take another bike and leave the AB at home.

This is not a "stupid" rule... It's just a different way to play them
 
Yes an AB alone could be fragile but like I said you can outflank it if you fear the 1st blood. One AB is also easier to hide than 4 bikes.
It gives you flexibility. Lots of opponent forgets that AB have a teleport homer and sometimes they won't shoot at it because it doesn't represent a threat, so the following turn you'll be able to DS your termi.
It also forces your opponent to split his fire on a 50pts model rather than on your costly terminators. Sure you'll lose 50pts under a plasma cannon but what if it was 3 termis?


p;
Just look at what the AB did alone during all game finally : a dread, a LS, 4 victory points... How could you say it's a "stupid" rule?
Lets look at why the rules sucks.

In missions like the Scouring (which I played) or even a straight kill point game the lack of models/wounds make a attack bike easy VPs. Having the option to leave them in a unit of bikes would counter this, while having to roll for split-fire would help balance it. The rule is stupid because it leaves no option but to field a easy VPs if you want a RW heavy weapon.

Outflanking in a mixed-wing? Useless if you are playing mainly DW (which I am). Reserves rolling to come in on turn two makes it useless for DWA purposes. Teleport Homers states that they "must have been on the board by at the start of the turn" to use the Homer. So, even if you could argue with your opponent that they count as being on the board at the start of the turn (which I think is a losing argument), you still wouldn't have great positioning like you would if you just ran them forward.

As for their performance in my game.... lets look at that.

Turn 1 it blows up a Dreadnought, while giving up 2 VPs because of this rule (1 for first blood and 1 for killing a fast attack). My Landraider didn't even shoot yet and it had a multi-melta. Also my DWK could have charged the Dread if the Landraider failed. Either way the dread was going to die. So the fact that it killed the dread was a moot point. I'd rather have the 2 VP's it lost me because of the attack-bike rule.

It killed the Landspeeder. Yes and no. If you re-read the description it helped kill the speeder. The 4 shots from the CML killed it. I had 3 pens just with the CMLs. The speeder would have died without the AB.

It captured the 3 point objective. True. of course it wouldn't have really been necessary if the rule in question wouldn't have given up 2 VP on turn 1. In fact, if I would have used the points I spent on the AB to buy two more bikers instead they would have carried out exactly what the AB did, but NOT giving up those 2 VP.

So in short.. the AB did nothing that wasn't already going to happen, with the exception of helping my opponent score more VPs.

Like I said.. it's a stupid rule, that would have been better served as splitfire and/or at least give the option to detach the AB from the unit instead of making it mandatory.

Anyway that is my opinion. Maybe if you play a solid RW army it's more useful with this rule the way it is, but I can't see how. But like I've said before I really don't play bikers.



********************************

On a different topic...

THANK YOU TO ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE LIKED THIS BATREP!

These take several hours to produce. Maybe there is a easier way, but moving everything on Vassel, cropping, pasting and writing the report up is laborious at best. I don't do them for myself, obviously I know how they went. Instead I do them for you guys, because I know how cool it is to read about a battle when you can't be playing one at the moment.

Edited by [TA]Typher, 07 May 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#16
notmattlythgoe

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yeah I already corrected myself. It's a stupid rule, that should have been replaced with split fire, but like the DW Sgt's loudout, there isn't much I can do about it. Next time I'll take another bike and leave the AB at home.

This is not a "stupid" rule... It's just a different way to play them
 
Yes an AB alone could be fragile but like I said you can outflank it if you fear the 1st blood. One AB is also easier to hide than 4 bikes.
It gives you flexibility. Lots of opponent forgets that AB have a teleport homer and sometimes they won't shoot at it because it doesn't represent a threat, so the following turn you'll be able to DS your termi.
It also forces your opponent to split his fire on a 50pts model rather than on your costly terminators. Sure you'll lose 50pts under a plasma cannon but what if it was 3 termis?


p;
Just look at what the AB did alone during all game finally : a dread, a LS, 4 victory points... How could you say it's a "stupid" rule?
Lets look at why the rules sucks.

In missions like the Scouring (which I played) or even a straight kill point game the lack of models/wounds make a attack bike easy VPs. Having the option to leave them in a unit of bikes would counter this, while having to roll for split-fire would help balance it. The rule is stupid because it leaves no option but to field a easy VPs if you want a RW heavy weapon.

Outflanking in a mixed-wing? Useless if you are playing mainly DW (which I am). Reserves rolling to come in on turn two makes it useless for DWA purposes. Teleport Homers states that they "must have been on the board by at the start of the turn" to use the Homer. So, even if you could argue with your opponent that they count as being on the board at the start of the turn (which I think is a losing argument), you still wouldn't have great positioning like you would if you just ran them forward.

As for their performance in my game.... lets look at that.

Turn 1 it blows up a Dreadnought, while giving up 2 VPs because of this rule (1 for first blood and 1 for killing a fast attack). My Landraider didn't even shoot yet and it had a multi-melta. Also my DWK could have charged the Dread if the Landraider failed. Either way the dread was going to die. So the fact that it killed the dread was a moot point. I'd rather have the 2 VP's it lost me because of the attack-bike rule.

It killed the Landspeeder. Yes and no. If you re-read the description it helped kill the speeder. The 4 shots from the CML killed it. I had 3 pens just with the CMLs. The speeder would have died without the AB.

It captured the 3 point objective. True. of course it wouldn't have really been necessary if the rule in question wouldn't have given up 2 VP on turn 1. In fact, if I would have used the points I spent on the AB to buy two more bikers instead they would have carried out exactly what the AB did, but NOT giving up those 2 VP.

So in short.. the AB did nothing that wasn't already going to happen, with the exception of helping my opponent score more VPs.

Like I said.. it's a stupid rule, that would have been better served as splitfire and/or at least give the option to detach the AB from the unit instead of making it mandatory.

Anyway that is my opinion. Maybe if you play a solid RW army it's more useful with this rule the way it is, but I can't see how. But like I've said before I really don't play bikers.

He means when you outflank the AB you don't plan on using the homing beacon. It gets you a nice heavy weapon right behind their lines. A lot of the times people use the AB as a suicide tank buster. But, I agree, having the option to run the AB with the bike squad would be nice.



#17
Master Avoghai

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Turn 1 it blows up a Dreadnought, while giving up 2 VPs because of this rule (1 for first blood and 1 for killing a fast attack). My Landraider didn't even shoot yet and it had a multi-melta. Also my DWK could have charged the Dread if the Landraider failed. Either way the dread was going to die. So the fact that it killed the dread was a moot point. I'd rather have the 2 VP's it lost me because of the attack-bike rule.
 

 

Let me rephrase it : 

First it spared a shoot from the Land raider which were able to turn its weapon to another target. Same thing for the DWK : it spares the use of the punitive mode.

I can have the same reasonning with your "MVP" Belial.

 

The "compensate the loss of 2VP due to the "poor rule" is also a non sense : you lost those VP because you didn't deploy well and didn't know how works the scout special rule. If you had deployed the bikes like I've suggested you'd probably have spared your bikes from enemy's fire and use the teleport homer.

 

Outflanking in a mixed-wing? Useless if you are playing mainly DW (which I am). Reserves rolling to come in on turn two makes it useless for DWA purposes. Teleport Homers states that they "must have been on the board by at the start of the turn" to use the Homer. So, even if you could argue with your opponent that they count as being on the board at the start of the turn (which I think is a losing argument), you still wouldn't have great positioning like you would if you just ran them forward.

 

The fact that it seems useless for you 

1- doesn't mean it is

2- doesn't mean it is useless at all

 

Like I've said it can maintain a pressure on your opponent by having a menace behind him. I remember a game where my attack bike arrived just behind a defiler. Even if the shot missed my opponent was obliged to turn its weapons on it so it was a shooting phase for my gun line gathered around my standard of devastation + I gain an extra movement phase for my typhoon to get in LoS the following turn.

 

And again if you had used it correctly with its strength you could have great results.

 

Of course, you could have good result with one or 2 additionnal bikes but it would have been different.

 

As for the VP of the scouring, you can also say that for the free DP of the assault squad or a LS... Any fragile vehicle/unit may bring bonus victory points. It's just a drawback because they can hold objective on the other side.


Master Avoghai,

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My Humble Tribute to Brother Argos thread

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#18
[TA]Typher

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Turn 1 it blows up a Dreadnought, while giving up 2 VPs because of this rule (1 for first blood and 1 for killing a fast attack). My Landraider didn't even shoot yet and it had a multi-melta. Also my DWK could have charged the Dread if the Landraider failed. Either way the dread was going to die. So the fact that it killed the dread was a moot point. I'd rather have the 2 VP's it lost me because of the attack-bike rule.
 

 
Let me rephrase it : 
First it spared a shoot from the Land raider which were able to turn its weapon to another target. Same thing for the DWK : it spares the use of the punitive mode.
I can have the same reasonning with your "MVP" Belial.
 
The "compensate the loss of 2VP due to the "poor rule" is also a non sense : you lost those VP because you didn't deploy well and didn't know how works the scout special rule. If you had deployed the bikes like I've suggested you'd probably have spared your bikes from enemy's fire and use the teleport homer.
 

Outflanking in a mixed-wing? Useless if you are playing mainly DW (which I am). Reserves rolling to come in on turn two makes it useless for DWA purposes. Teleport Homers states that they "must have been on the board by at the start of the turn" to use the Homer. So, even if you could argue with your opponent that they count as being on the board at the start of the turn (which I think is a losing argument), you still wouldn't have great positioning like you would if you just ran them forward.

 
The fact that it seems useless for you 
1- doesn't mean it is
2- doesn't mean it is useless at all
 
Like I've said it can maintain a pressure on your opponent by having a menace behind him. I remember a game where my attack bike arrived just behind a defiler. Even if the shot missed my opponent was obliged to turn its weapons on it so it was a shooting phase for my gun line gathered around my standard of devastation + I gain an extra movement phase for my typhoon to get in LoS the following turn.
 
And again if you had used it correctly with its strength you could have great results.
 
Of course, you could have good result with one or 2 additionnal bikes but it would have been different.
 
As for the VP of the scouring, you can also say that for the free DP of the assault squad or a LS... Any fragile vehicle/unit may bring bonus victory points. It's just a drawback because they can hold objective on the other side.

Nothing you have said here contradicts any of my points. I'm not saying that an attack bike is useless. I can see it's niche. Blwing up a deflier would be great, but if my goal is to kill things with bikes... why would I need terminators? I'm not saying that an AB is useless, I'm saying that the AB rule is bad. Forcing it to go solo, when really it would do better in a group is a horrible rule. Further more, while it might help to outflank to suicide a tank I believe those points could be used better in a army mainly comprised of DW.

If I take a landspeeder I almost always take multiple in the same unit. Killing one is easy. Killing 2 or three is much harder than killing 1 bike.

If you are trying to argue it's value to a RW army.. your point is lost on me. In fact that argument would have nothing to do with this thread.I'm not trying to be short or rude. I know that tone gets lost in text. /Respect.

Edited by [TA]Typher, 07 May 2013 - 03:57 PM.


#19
Master Avoghai

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Nope I'm just saying that saying that it made you lost VP in your game and therefore is useless in your army is not right.

 

You lost your VP because your deployment were wrong. And because you didn't know the scout rule well.

 

So saying that it costed you 2VP because of bad rule is not fair and objective.

 

In your army having a independant AB can be useful for different reason :

 

-offering a cheap menacing target (in non KP scenario)

-keeping a outflanking cheap tank hunter while keeping your 3 bikes on the board.

-having 2 possibilities of teleporting location.

 

Getting an additionnal bike would bring you only 1W where the AB offers you 2W + one additionnal unit

Getting 2 additional bikes would give you the same number of W but in the same squad (so you can't force your opponent to divide his fire) and you have one single squad

Getting 3 additionnal bikes would give you 3W and 2 squads but cost more and won't bring you an additional retentless multi melta.

 

Lots of use in an army like yours indeed.


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#20
[TA]Typher

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Nope I'm just saying that saying that it made you lost VP in your game and therefore is useless in your army is not right.
 
You lost your VP because your deployment were wrong. And because you didn't know the scout rule well.
 
So saying that it costed you 2VP because of bad rule is not fair and objective.
 
In your army having a independant AB can be useful for different reason :
 
-offering a cheap menacing target (in non KP scenario)
-keeping a outflanking cheap tank hunter while keeping your 3 bikes on the board.
-having 2 possibilities of teleporting location.
 
Getting an additionnal bike would bring you only 1W where the AB offers you 2W + one additionnal unit
Getting 2 additional bikes would give you the same number of W but in the same squad (so you can't force your opponent to divide his fire) and you have one single squad
Getting 3 additionnal bikes would give you 3W and 2 squads but cost more and won't bring you an additional retentless multi melta.
 
Lots of use in an army like yours indeed.



I can see all of your points and I agree with many of them.

I just think that the AB rule doesn't out weigh the risk of using them in my DW army. Don't get me wrong I like attack bikes, just not in my DW army.

The Deathwing is a fine balance with little wiggle room for mistakes. The low model count forces me to play careful or get owned. If I play normal marines I can lose units here and there and still do ok. This is not the case with the Deathwing. Losing a unit is painful and should be avoided as much as possible. Having a easy to kill unit, that can give up victory points that easy isn't worth the risk in my opinion.

You can't tell me that they would be substantially better if they had split fire? And/or an option to leave the group or to stay with it?

On a side note in a Raven Wing army would they count as a troop selection in a scouring mission? And if so would they give up a VP if they died in that mission?

#21
Master Avoghai

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You can't tell me that they would be substantially better if they had split fire? And/or an option to leave the group or to stay with it?


I can ... As well as I can tell you that termis with basic FNP and WS/BS5 would be better than the actual ones :P

I just defend the fact that AB are useful and good as they are... Don't forget that units are balanced regarding the whole codex... And regarding ALL scenarios (you know that in 4 scenarios they won't bring KP right?)


On a side note in a Raven Wing army would they count as a troop selection in a scouring mission? And if so would they give up a VP if they died in that mission?


Since they count as troops when using Sammael, they don't give any VP in the scouring.

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