Shadows of Mysis: The Tortured Minds of Heathens and Noctus

[Emperors Immortals]

Wow, just stunning as usual noctus! And source material written with 1000heathens? looks like Christmas came early :).....possibly also the apocolypse :)

[Octavulg]

I'm actually working hand-and -hand with Noctus in the development of the fluff; in a matter of speaking, this has become both our babies. Though there is nothing truly evil (aka chaos) in the extermination of the old Chapter, there will be a darkness and a shadow of horror to it's re-birthed form. Promise, even you will enjoy it.

Yes, but does the Imperium know that?

 

(That there's nothing actually evil going on, not whether or not I'll enjoy it).

 

EDIT: (And I enjoy things all the time, damn it).

[Noctus Cornix]

All shall be revealed in due time, Octavulg ;)

[Hyaenidae]

Permission granted, Dragoon Captain Heathens. Relay the confiscated Intel log through encrypted message.

 

Cinder and Smoke, my kin.

 

So be it. Time to open your eyes...

 

"Before the Setting Sun, when the Knights of the Dawn, born Sons of Nemia, walked the soil, the skies were brilliant blue, the seas a much deeper shade, rich fields of amber grain waved in the breeze. Great snowcapped mountains dominated the beautiful landscape, and the clouds were the color of heaven. Mighty lions with fur of gold calmly hunted across the landscape, proud symbols of both the people, and the Holy Warriors who made Nemia their home. The Great Knights with warplate the color of the sun mixed among us, picking our greatest first-born to become the chosen warriors of the God Emperor, aiding during the great harvest, and the building of our great cities of stained glass and white marble, carved from the flanks of our greatest mountains. Then the Veiled came, and the world changed swiftly forever.

 

They appeared as from nowhere, sudden and swift. Every shadow and dark corner became an enemy, a foe of gnashing teeth and tearing claws that cut through anything and everything. The Great Knights made no true impact against this foe, heavenly weapons and war machines of the Omnissiah making no wound upon the Veil. Only the light from their mighty weapons affected the enemy, the brilliant shine of thier plate reflecting the muzzle flash, sending the horror back. But only for a moment, then the blood of kings would spray and flow again. In desperation, and with the world dying around them, the Sons ordered all citizens to carry every source of light that could be found into panic bunkers, and futher ordered that no one leave until the great adamantium doors were cool to the touch. Hundreds of thousands of bunkers were sealed, the halls lit with candles, flood-lumes, torches, and any other light that could be found, until almost every man, woman, and child was nearly blind from it's intensity. The last broadcast from the Sons of Nemia was cast across the airwaves; "God-Emperor, protect our charges, and keep them safe. The sacrifice we make now is in their name. Glory to the new sun we create; when it sets, may our foes be as of cinder and smoke. For the Lion." Static. Nothingness.

 

The world shook. The Great Doors turned red. Sweat beaded brows, and children screamed in fear. Panic Bunkers indeed; the air of each was laced with horror, heat, sweat and tears. Eventually, the shaking stopped, and the doors became colder than the deepest winter. When enough time passed, the citizens broke the seals of the doors, and stepped from the bunkers. The sight that greeted them was enough to break the stoutest of hearts. The beautiful cities lay shattered and blackened, the brillant green grass turned to blackened sand, the skies blanketed in falling ash, a sickly blue-white glow eminating from the ebon clouds; the burning plasma of the Holy Warriors star-ships, which self destructed in the heavens to burn the Veil from the surface of the world, along with every nuclear weapon upon the planet, the light of these astral fires dimming like the setting of the sun on the horizon. Worse, the air itself was rad-laced, threatening to kill them all. Though the great bunkers had some protective gear and clean water and food, it was only enough to last a year. Salvation came in the form of a visiting Rogue Trader, who once conducted buisness with the old ruling families. Taking pity on the once proud people, they gave them water, air, and soil purifiers, stocks of anti-rad medicines, and armed them with ballistic weapons to defend themselves against the mutated rad-lions, blackened monsters that now prowled for flesh of any sort.

 

Too little, too late. The sickness had already begun to take the people to early graves. Many who became rad-sick simply died in horrible pain, their flesh turning to gel as they vomited out their insides. Some mutated, great weeping holes eaten through their skin, yet continuing to live, immune to pain or sensation. Some, though, became true horrors, monstorous creatures almost as vicious as the black lions. Swiftly, the great communities of Nemia degenerated into thousands of tribes. Villages of farmers working within rad-sheltered domes growing what food they could develop from the blasted soil were commonplace. Roaming bands of former citizen-soldiers, now vicious groups of reavers, traveled the wastes, offering protection and bloody death in equal measure, using the weapons meant to protect, to instead take whatever they wished. The ruins of the great cities, and even the halls of the broken Citadel-Monestary of the Great Sons, became vicious warzones where no quarter was given, and the black sands buried the dead for the living who would not. Aliens and other various filth would visit the broken planet as well, to enslave or slaughter, stopped only at a great cost of lives. Suffering was a daily occurance, and the horror never seemed to end.

 

Decades later, rumors began to float from town to town, from supply caravans that travelled between them. Rumors became truth, and truth became news, a glimmer of hope snatched away before it's light could be seen. One of the Warrior-Knights, returned. A single, solitary warrior, utterly alone, traveling the ash-wastes until his golden plate was blacker than the rad-wasted sky. Many villages did he visit, and at first, the warrior was met with acclaim and joyful tears. Those who saw him closely, though, spoke of his silence, and eyes that were devoid of emotion. Other reports spoke of him callously gunning down those who showed signs of the Sickness, of burning bits where villages once sat, of sand-stripped corpses tied to posts in the middle of the wastes, of men and women hanging from the broken remains of buildings by their necks. The last that was heard of the broken knight was from a convoy passing near what was once the citadel-monestary, the tumbled ruins once known as the Lion's Den. They spoke of tracer fire filling the night sky and weak comm-transmissions, renegade soldiers who fought over the tech within the ruins screaming of a knight killing them all, of men thrown from atop shattered walls, of burning flesh, of legless men dragging themselves across the scorching sands, of atrocities unspeakable. Then silence, and static. Such an omen would not be forgotten, and the ruins were declared haunted by all tribes of Nemia, never to be trespassed upon on pain of death. Nothing was heard of the Revenant for many decades, except for fanciful tales of young male children, pure of blood, who were taken in the night by armoured shadows, and stories of villages burned to the ground with giant footsteps passing through them, the evidence swifty taken by the ever-shifting sands. Dark wives-tales, of course....

 

Years passed, when suddenly, the stolen and wasted youth of Nemia returned to their people, changed forever. Dozens of matte black Gunships, like the great knights once rode through the skies, roared over and into the heart of villages of sheet metal and cloth. The Transhuman warriors that exited these craft were no honour-bound knights of old, but killers with stone hearts and numbed blank stares, eyes of broken blue crystal staring miles away, faces masked behind black cloth or hidden under shredded hoods. Their light plate was matte black, like the feared Revenant, with a defleshed version of the Sons of Nemia's heraldry upon their shoulder; once a lion's head in proud profile, now only it's bare, blackened skull. They moved through the villages, scanning the lifeblood of each village inhabitant for rad-sickness, targeting the Rad-Poisoned with bolt and blade. Callous and vicious, they would gun down sick mothers in front of children, hang the fathers from the ruins for all to see, burn the houses of civilians who had protected the Poisoned with their occupants still within, or firing white phosphex missiles into villages from their gunships, ending hundreds of lives in blazes of howling, burning torture and white light. Male adolesents who were Pure are bundled up and thrown into the open maws of the gunships, never to be seen again, their mothers on their knees, weeping with horror and agony. Many people refused to acknowledge these post-men as kin to the Great Knights, seeing them only as broken-mirrors of the Holy Warriors who had died to save them; Shadows of cinder and smoke, bastards and murderers, blood-kin of the terrible Mysis, the fabled black lion of slaughter and death.

 

It was only a matter of time before a resistance was formed. No single leader controls the entire insurgency, nor does anyone speak of where they recieve their arms and armour, though rumours abound. They strike, they fade, and strike again; the Shadows retaliate, and rip apart quiet villages, murdering any who are even so much as suspected of aiding the insurgents. The innocent, caught between the two warring forces, suffer in abject misery, never knowing when death will be at their door, trying to shut the memories of their friends and family burning, hanging, screaming, bleeding, gurgling, crying, dying...."

 

 

Are You Awake Yet?

[deathspectersgt7]

COOL heathens now lets see some painted marines to drool over.

[Kol Saresk]

That. Is. :wub:

[Artemid]

indeed! And proper Sons of the Lion in a multitude of ways

[Dragonkin Arenis]

Ooh, brutal! And what a fall from grace for the Chapter.

 

So the Chapter's entire ethos is dictated by the bitter sadness of the last Son of Nemia, leading them to reap what the Chapter once sowed? Ouch!

 

I am eagerly awaiting either some more fluff or some painted models, gents ;)

[Octavulg]

Before the Setting Sun, when the Knights of the Dawn, born Sons of Nemia, walked the soil, the skies were brilliant blue, the seas a much deeper shade, rich fields of amber grain waved in the breeze. Great snowcapped mountains dominated the beautiful landscape, and the clouds were the color of heaven.

...Did you just recap America the Beautiful?

 

It's cool, and I like all of it except one bit. Since you could fit an entire Chapter onto a Rapid Strike Vessel if they kept their elbows in, the Chapter themselves being wiped out with their fleet seems...unnecessary. Plus, there's apparently all these bunkers on the planet. It just feels like the sort of situation where more Marines would have survived (and, honestly, I don't think you'd necessarily lose much by having more Marines survive and the chapter continue in a different form rather than being a new chapter).

 

Also, have you been reading a lot of Barbara Hambly or something? The Veiled remind me a lot of the Dark.

[Hyaenidae]

 

Before the Setting Sun, when the Knights of the Dawn, born Sons of Nemia, walked the soil, the skies were brilliant blue, the seas a much deeper shade, rich fields of amber grain waved in the breeze. Great snowcapped mountains dominated the beautiful landscape, and the clouds were the color of heaven.

...Did you just recap America the Beautiful?

 

It's cool, and I like all of it except one bit. Since you could fit an entire Chapter onto a Rapid Strike Vessel if they kept their elbows in, the Chapter themselves being wiped out with their fleet seems...unnecessary. Plus, there's apparently all these bunkers on the planet. It just feels like the sort of situation where more Marines would have survived (and, honestly, I don't think you'd necessarily lose much by having more Marines survive and the chapter continue in a different form rather than being a new chapter).

 

Also, have you been reading a lot of Barbara Hambly or something? The Veiled remind me a lot of the Dark.

 

1. Yeah, a little bit, but mostly unintentionally. Some of the most beautiful terrain I have seen in my life was when I traveled to Alaska from North Carolina, and drove the length of the Al-Can highway at the end of summer, so I weaved those memories into the story. The fields, I was imagining the breadbaskets of Saskatchewan and Alberta, the grain ripening and the farmers out harvesting. The mountains and sky, my leg of the trip through BC, the Yukon and Alaska itself, with fields of gold and red highlighted by the snow-capped mountains. The waters were my memories of the glacial rivers pouring from the mountains there, and that intense blue from those waters.

 

2. It wasn't just a normal enemy. "Every shadow an enemy" is very literal, and the Veiled were aboard the ships as well. Matter of fact, it was the Chapter Ships of the Sons that accidentaly brought these monsters home. Again, this story was from the point of view of civilians, who really don't fully understand what happened. That part of the story will come later.

 

3. The whole idea of the Chapter would be non-existant if more had survived. Pointless, even. We wouldn't even be talking about this Chapter if they had just been wounded, like the Crimson Fists, because that would just be another redundant story of survival. This is to be a story of a Chapter that should have stayed dead. The Sons were extinguished very intentionally, because their noble death has much to do with the Shadows terrible life.

 

4. Never heard of Barbera Hambly, I'm afraid. Might have to look into her works, though. No, I've been reading about other foes the Imperium has faced, horrors within the deeps that make Chaos seem tame.

[Noctus Cornix]

 

 

: Octavulg

It's cool, and I like all of it except one bit. Since you could fit an entire Chapter onto a Rapid Strike Vessel if they kept their elbows in, the Chapter themselves being wiped out with their fleet seems...unnecessary. Plus, there's apparently all these bunkers on the planet. It just feels like the sort of situation where more Marines would have survived (and, honestly, I don't think you'd necessarily lose much by having more Marines survive and the chapter continue in a different form rather than being a new chapter).

 

Also, have you been reading a lot of Barbara Hambly or something? The Veiled remind me a lot of the Dark.

 

 

 

EDIT: Whoops, looks like Heathens got to this before me but I'll simply state a few points in addition to help explain some things.

 

It may seem excessive but it was hardly unnecessary. The Chapter had already suffered horrendous casualties to an enemy they could not kill and was slaughtering them like playthings. So they made the decision to protect their charges and kill this enemy, if it killed them off, then so be it. (this is also very important as a show of contrast between the chapter that was and the chapter that is). Due to the few numbers that remained, of the chapter, it was their decision to use their last remaining men to bring the thermonuclear devices into precise locations to create the greatest amount of light/damage. There was no option to put any Son of Nemia, Initiate or Neophyte into a bunker as they were called to lay their lives down for the Emperor and his people. The fleet (be it a very small one) was also necessary to ensure the destruction of their foe. They needed this thing to be dead so that it never threaten the Imperium again. As Wardens of the Ghoul Stars, that is their burden and their obligation to the death and as Knights of Honour there is no way they would allow their oath to be unfulfilled.

 

(It may not seem quite as important now but the fact that only a single member remains alive is vital to the story of the chapter and will be explained more and more as time goes on. In some respects they are just a continuation of the old chapter, as the Lords of Terra will use as an excuse to allow the revival, but they are classified as an entirely new chapter in their own right.)

 

 

 

“You cannot truly understand the depths of my failure until you know what I have lost…”

 

 

 

[Octavulg]

1000heathens:

2. It wasn't just a normal enemy. "Every shadow an enemy" is very literal, and the Veiled were aboard the ships as well. Matter of fact, it was the Chapter Ships of the Sons that accidentaly brought these monsters home. Again, this story was from the point of view of civilians, who really don't fully understand what happened. That part of the story will come later.

Fair enough.

3. The whole idea of the Chapter would be non-existant if more had survived. Pointless, even. We wouldn't even be talking about this Chapter if they had just been wounded, like the Crimson Fists, because that would just be another redundant story of survival. This is to be a story of a Chapter that should have stayed dead. The Sons were extinguished very intentionally, because their noble death has much to do with the Shadows terrible life.

I disagree. The Chapter, in such a scenario, clearly did not survive in spirit. Oh, there's continuity, and a lot of the stuff is the same, but the actual Chapter died with the ships. The remainder is just a twisted shadow of itself. It would be a Chapter that should have died, and didn't (which is not, I think, that far from a Chapter that should have stayed dead). Parallels the population well, too.

4. Never heard of Barbera Hambly, I'm afraid. Might have to look into her works, though. No, I've been reading about other foes the Imperium has faced, horrors within the deeps that make Chaos seem tame.

I like her stuff. The Time of the Dark series reminds me of this.

 

* * *

 

noctus cornix:

So they made the decision to protect their charges and kill this enemy, if it killed them off, then so be it. (this is also very important as a show of contrast between the chapter that was and the chapter that is).

I get that.

There was no option to put any Son of Nemia, Initiate or Neophyte into a bunker as they were called to lay their lives down for the Emperor and his people.

Really? That seems unlikely. You've got drop pods to deliver the nukes (or bombardment cannons, actually). The crews could blow up the fleet without much Space Marine direction. No opportunity to hide the Apothecarion in an out-of-the-way bunker?

They needed this thing to be dead so that it never threaten the Imperium again. As Wardens of the Ghoul Stars, that is their burden and their obligation to the death and as Knights of Honour there is no way they would allow their oath to be unfulfilled.

And if they miss one? Who tells the Imperium? Who protects the people (or tries to, anyway)? Hell, what if the plan doesn't work at all, and the Veiled survive?

(It may not seem quite as important now but the fact that only a single member remains alive is vital to the story of the chapter and will be explained more and more as time goes on. In some respects they are just a continuation of the old chapter, as the Lords of Terra will use as an excuse to allow the revival, but they are classified as an entirely new chapter in their own right.)

Every time I hear the phrase "vital to the story", I get nervous. But we shall see.

 

Though the Lords of Terra hardly need excuses.

[Grotsmasha]

Excellent read, very Fallout-esqe.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Noctus Cornix]

Desperation makes fools out of us all, genetically engineered super humans or not and they did what they did to ensure the veil was eradicated along with them. Most of the fleet was already destroyed before the final sacrifice was even made in the first place. What little there was left offered their payloads to the chain of explosions but that would not be enough, hence the necessity for on the ground marines. That being said, the Sons were fighting the Veil while the civilians were not. The veil was focused on them and them alone, there would be no time or opportunity to make a retreat to the safety of a bunker even if they wanted to and given their nature as Honour-fueled warriors, they wouldn't retreat until they knew the enemy was dead. I can understand your confusion and disagreement but in the end it is what it is and it will remain that way.

 

 

 

I disagree. The Chapter, in such a scenario, clearly did not survive in spirit. Oh, there's continuity, and a lot of the stuff is the same, but the actual Chapter died with the ships. The remainder is just a twisted shadow of itself. It would be a Chapter that should have died, and didn't (which is not, I think, that far from a Chapter that should have stayed dead). Parallels the population well, too.

But, that's not a story I wish to tell. I don't want to write about a Chapter that should have died but didn't. That's been done before and has nothing to do with the symbolism and meaning behind this project. The Sons of Nemia did not survive in body or spirit. They're Chapter, their legacy IS dead. This is the story of a band of murderers who walk in the shadows of those who were far greater than them, who suffer for the actions of one man who cannot let go of the past, and who descend into a madness they did not deserve. That is what I want to write about.

[Kol Saresk]

40K is grimdark. For every ten Chapters that survive a wounding, twenty more die. What's wrong with us actually seeing the death of a Chapter giving its life to make sure its charges survive, to live on, to endure? Even if it is as the survivors of a Nuclear Holocaust to killed the Veiled?

 

We never see a Chapter die. We see them wounded, we see them set on the path to extinction, we hear about the extinction, but we rarely see it and usually when we do, its more of a self-destruct rather than a sacrifice. The Black Consuls were destroyed by the Word Bearers. The Soul Drinkers destroyed themselves. The Lamenters and the Emperor's Scythes disappeared from the face of galaxy, their fate uncertain.

 

But here, we get a Chapter who paid the ultimate price. In Death does Duty End. Here we actually see it. Here we actually see someone pay the ultimate price to try and save that which they all(including the scouts and novitiates) swore to protect. It's hitting on the aspect of grimdark that sometimes in order to kill the enemy, you have to die with them.

 

I like it. :)

[Hyaenidae]

But here, we get a Chapter who paid the ultimate price. In Death does Duty End. Here we actually see it. Here we actually see someone pay the ultimate price to try and save that which they all(including the scouts and novitiates) swore to protect. It's hitting on the aspect of grimdark that sometimes in order to kill the enemy, you have to die with them.

 

Kinda, but that leads into what makes this... group (Chapter is too strong a word) so tragic, and laced with pain and horror. They should have died after The Setting Sun. They should've stayed dead. But they have been given new life, a life they shouldn't been given.

 

This is not the recussitiation (sp?) of the noble warriors that gave everything to preserve the people they loved. Not a martyr turned saint.

 

This is a madman, broken by the horror his world has become and the suffering he commited upon his own people, who has taken it upon himself to raise a corspe from the ground, tearing it's broken body from the soil because he cannot let it go, even though it would be better that way. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde meets Frankenstein's Monster. This is not about good or bad, or even a shade of grey. This is an awakening. This is meeting the monster lurking in every man, and understanding it instead of destroying it. Meeting it eye to eye, and shaking it's hand. Learning from it. Feeding it. Letting it take away the pain, in order to carry on.

 

Awake, yet numb.

 

You just have to wake up.

[Octavulg]

noctus cornix

Desperation makes fools out of us all, genetically engineered super humans or not and they did what they did to ensure the veil was eradicated along with them.

First, relying on your characters making poor decisions is almost always bad writing. Doubly so with Space Marines, who are supposed to be superintelligent. Second, their plan for annihilating the Veiled isn't exactly a perfect one (what if the Veiled hide underground? What if they're immune to the radiation, or to nuclear explosions?) even if it is the best one available, and the Chapter treating it as if it is makes their actions less sympathetic. If it's an ill-conceived desperation gambit that might not work and with no contingency plan, your chapter comes across as careless or foolish rather than as noble and doing what had to be done.

The contingency plan guys wouldn't necessarily need to survive - most obviously, some of the Veiled could survive and kill the Chapter before dying off (or not dying off, for added doom-hanging-over-everyone's-head). Or their bunker(s) could fail. Or they could set off into interstellar space to draw any surviving Veiled away. Or they could be napping under the Fortress-Monastery because their wakeup system didn't kick in. Hell, the off-with-the-Deathwatch guy could kill them.

Just, as I said - it makes your chapter look reckless, not noble.

That being said, the Sons were fighting the Veil while the civilians were not. The veil was focused on them and them alone, there would be no time or opportunity to make a retreat to the safety of a bunker even if they wanted to and given their nature as Honour-fueled warriors, they wouldn't retreat until they knew the enemy was dead.

So they annihilated the planet? I mean, if the Veiled were focused on them to that extent, luring the Veiled offplanet to some barren world (and then nuking THAT) would seem the noble thing to do, rather than nuking their home world and millions of people...

The Sons of Nemia did not survive in body or spirit. They're Chapter, their legacy IS dead. This is the story of a band of murderers who walk in the shadows of those who were far greater than them, who suffer for the actions of one man who cannot let go of the past, and who descend into a madness they did not deserve. That is what I want to write about.

Since that's basically the history of the Night Lords, I would suggest that none of what you just said requires the band of murderers be a completely different group than those who came before them.

Indeed, since you said that the connection to the previous chapter in the person of the Chapter Master is critical, I'm really unclear on why having more Marines survive would somehow ruin everything. Ten or twenty guys couldn't be too focused on the past?

* * *

Kol_Saresk

40K is grimdark. For every ten Chapters that survive a wounding, twenty more die. What's wrong with us actually seeing the death of a Chapter giving its life to make sure its charges survive, to live on, to endure? Even if it is as the survivors of a Nuclear Holocaust to killed the Veiled?

...

But here, we get a Chapter who paid the ultimate price. In Death does Duty End. Here we actually see it. Here we actually see someone pay the ultimate price to try and save that which they all(including the scouts and novitiates) swore to protect. It's hitting on the aspect of grimdark that sometimes in order to kill the enemy, you have to die with them.

There's nothing wrong with a Chapter dying. But it should be because it's the best available option, not because the plot demands it. Otherwise, paying that price isn't noble: it's foolhardy. Which is my concern. Dead chapter with improved plan or more survivors with same plan both work from where I sit (I just figured more survivors was less of a change).

* * *

1000heathens

Resuscitation. Or so my spellcheck claims. But then, spellcheck isn't in my spellcheck, so can it be trusted?

Another point just occurred to me, actually. Considering they'd need more than one guy to train the new Chapter, a few more survivors might be a good thing. A training cadre would seem likely to have issues with the sane members of other Chapters who were helping out noticing that your boy is a whackjob. If it's a bunch of unhinged nutjobs, no such issues arise.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 Male adolesents who were Pure are bundled up and thrown into the open maws of the gunships, never to be seen again, their mothers on their knees, weeping with horror and sorrow.

 

First let me say gentlemen that this is a fantastic read. I'm really enjoying this.

 

And then there is the above quote. For me...now this just me,( and it comes from some of my training for my "other" job). When you have two adjectives that sound so much alike it takes something away. But maybe that's just me. Horror and agony, seems appropriate for a mother in that situation. Sorrow seems like the constant that she would endure, knowing that her baby was taken, and became one of...them.

 

Just my two cents. Carry on.

[Hyaenidae]

Relying on characters to make bad decisions is the bread and butter of 40k, in it's entirety. The Emperor, every single Primarch, every chapter master we have ever, ever, ever read about. Would you say that the Eisenhorn series is poor, because the main character made a constant string of bad decisions throughout the entire series? How about the Tanith series? The entire Horus Heresy series? The Soul Hunter Series?

 

Characters that make no poor decisions are the worst, because they are completley and utterly boooooring. Why in the nine hells would I want to read about the guy who has an answer to everything, never gets hurt, has a moral compass that makes an angel proud, and is capable of making perfectly reasonable desicions, no matter what? Why even write, without having to face up to the errors of your ways? Why do anything at all? Failure and poor decison making is life in it's entirety; what makes a story is how the character reacts to these decisons. A lack of reflections on these failures, poor decisons, and actions are what truly makes poor writing. I have no intrest in perfection, or making a million people happy

 

I assure you that we're not trying to jump the shark here, and Noctus and I have both slapped each others hands about some OTT ideas we've had, but the Survivor is important to the existance of this Chapter, and it is equally important that he was the only one of his bloodline.

 

Yes, there will be some unfortunate crossovers with the Night Lords, because we are pulling much of our inspiriation from the same sources as the Night Lords were created from, aka Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Heart of Darkness, etc. We are doing what we can to avoid too many similarities, but some potential still exists. You'll just have to forgive that, as without those sources, this project wouldn't exist. Period.

 

The death of the Chapter, when it is fully explained later, WILL BE the only option. We're talking about most the fleet already dead. No functional companies surviving. The last were already doing their duty, dragging the Veiled out of hiding spots with their very lives, so that the Setting Sun would kill them all. That was the only choice left. No other. None. Nada. That was the intellegent decision, because every other option was closed. I'm not sure how the hell else I'm supposed to push that across, without drawing maps and creating Imperial Armour: Nemia for you, man.

 

There will be other characters who will be around. The Revenant was not the only body on ground, just the only of his bloodline left. But I only made a 1 page story from the point of view of a mortal telling a tale around a fire, not a full IA, man. Give us a chance to create more before you place an axe in our throats, please. I'm already explaining more than I wanted to yet.

[Aqui]

Very interesting concept ^_^

[Hyaenidae]

@Demus: Solid point, man. I'll make the change.

 

@At everyone: Thanks! I'm sure I can speak for Noctus and say we both apprieciate y'alls support.

 

My first test mini WIP should be done soon. Been busy this weekend with a birthday hangover, and trying to get the garden all planted (What a combo, huh? lol)

[Marshal Rohr]

Centralize the decision to blow it all to hell with only a few people, like a Chaplain or somebody else who could be easily hand waved as more focused on killing the enemy than surviving. Like if they went and detonated the bombs in the silos across the planet through a centralized emergency stop like the US has. 

 

Or simply say no one has any idea why all the nukes went off and the ships crashed onto the planet (which you should add by the way ;) a fleet graveyard ). Simple as that. The less specific you are, the less you have to explain. Didnt you watch House of Cards :p ?

[Octavulg]

1000heathens

Relying on characters to make bad decisions is the bread and butter of 40k, in it's entirety. The Emperor, every single Primarch, every chapter master we have ever, ever, ever read about. Would you say that the Eisenhorn series is poor, because the main character made a constant string of bad decisions throughout the entire series? How about the Tanith series? The entire Horus Heresy series? The Soul Hunter Series?

First, that's untrue. Characters making decisions that turn out badly is the bread and butter of 40K. There's a distinction. You can tell bad decisions are going to be bad when they're made. Decisions that turn out badly look good, then bite you further down the road.

Second, relying on characters making bad decisions is often lazy writing. Rather than figure out what characters would do in a situation, the author instead just has them do whatever is most convenient for the plot. Plus, in a case like this, it doesn't work well because you're trying to present the decision as a laudable and noble one. Bad decisions don't spin that way as well as more solid ones. Lions led by donkeys is a tragedy, not a heroic tale of sacrifice.

Also, have you read my stuff? I don't think many of my chapters could be characterized as having moral compasses that could make angels proud.

Yes, there will be some unfortunate crossovers with the Night Lords, because we are pulling much of our inspiriation from the same sources as the Night Lords were created from, aka Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Heart of Darkness, etc. We are doing what we can to avoid too many similarities, but some potential still exists. You'll just have to forgive that, as without those sources, this project wouldn't exist. Period.

My point was just that claiming that such a story can't be told without killing everyone off and starting up a second group is incorrect. The Night Lords/Apocalypse Now/Heart of Darkness story is classic, and almost always a good choice.

The death of the Chapter, when it is fully explained later, WILL BE the only option. We're talking about most the fleet already dead. No functional companies surviving. The last were already doing their duty, dragging the Veiled out of hiding spots with their very lives, so that the Setting Sun would kill them all. That was the only choice left. No other. None. Nada. That was the intellegent decision, because every other option was closed. I'm not sure how the hell else I'm supposed to push that across, without drawing maps and creating Imperial Armour: Nemia for you, man.

Makes sense on that basis. Wasn't getting the impression things were that desperate. *

*You may be finding my sudden agreement surprising. If you look, you'll notice that you never explained why it would be a good decision. There was lots of "it'll be explained" and "it's really important" and "it was totally noble", but not much in the way of "it was the sensible course of action, and here's why." I'm usually just looking for an explanation, I swear.

Explaining things isn't the enemy, BTW - indeed, it's a critical component of telling people about your chapter. A good story won't be impeded by having a few details revealed.

Give us a chance to create more before you place an axe in our throats, please.

First, I'm honestly not trying to make things massively difficult. Sorry if that's how it's coming across.

Second, if I point out issues now and you actually DO see them as problems, it's probably easier to fix them now then at the end. Plus, it can make it clear what points need to be addressed in more detail later on. For example, I'm pretty sure that now you're going to make sure it's clear why blowing up the entire chapter was the 100% correct decision when you get there.

[Hyaenidae]

Explaining things IS the enemy, when you're trying to suprise and entertain other people with cool stories that answer all their questions, one bitter pill at a time... . Ruining the plot because every single detail needs to be laid out first, sucks the fun out of writing creatively in the first place. On top of that, I like secrets. I like some things never being answered. As long as it isn't overdone, it can add some great flavour to a story.

You'll have to wait for the next installment.

[Octavulg]

Hmm. I did come across a tad harsh.

Oh, heathens. I have not yet been harsh with you, and you have not yet been harsh with me.

This is not to say we should not try to be nice to each other, just that we could both be a LOT worse.

It just seems like you are critiqueing us as if this is a finished project, or that this fluff is even ready for quite the level of interrogation you're laying down.

Fair enough. The bit you've got up there looks quite solid, so I figured the other stuff was probably pretty sound. If it isn't - take the comments as instructive guidance to use in the brainstorming.

So, onward. decisions that turn out badly are just bad decisions with foresight. It's one and the same. No living creature on the face of the planet makes a bad decision intentionally, even when a million people are telling him it's a bad decision. That fool who jumped off the 3rd floor roof with a snowboard thought his idea was a great one, even though his buddies on the ground are laughing their asses off at his decision, despite that they told him repeatedly it was not smart. That's human nature, and even worse, in my opinion, for Astartes. Ask a Marine to perform a specific tactical movement, and he will do so, even altering course for strange events, and will do so perfectly. Force a Marine to face his own broken psyche, face his emotions, to come to terms with what he's done, and you'll see a superhuman being challenged like never before.

Ah. I think we're talking past each other a little here. I'm looking at things from the observer's perspective more than that of the individual making the decision. Which is, after all, the perspective that the decision will be seen from. With an IA (or almost any piece of writing), the audience is going to be the guys on the ground, not the guy on the roof.

From their perspective, the story's going to be about what an idiot Bob was to jump off that roof, even if he sticks the landing. So, unless the story's supposed to be about Bob's decision to jump of the roof (and not the consequences of that decision), it's probably best to have the house be on fire. So to speak. Bob's decision needs to be the right one (or we need to be in a position where we can see how Bob would have seen that as the only option), or you risk people asking why Bob didn't do something else instead.

I'm not saying the decision couldn't have made sense to the Marines at the time (though I think if any group of people were going to keep acting rationally under such circumstances, it'd probably be Space Marines). But it's probably better to just have it be the right decision than to have it be questionable-but-we-can-certainly-see-why-they-did-it. Especially if you want to draw parallels between their moral purity and correctness and the depravity of their successors.

If the decision is questionable, someone will probably question it eventually. If you don't want it questioned, best not to have it be questionable (I realize context of presentation limited that somewhat. I'm speaking generally).

Also, you may want to make sure you don't have the Chapter so close to wiped out that killing themselves off isn't just slightly speeding up the inevitable. Less of a noble sacrifice that way.

The death of the Chapter will never be fully explained, nor whether it was a good decision or not. Never. That is a part of the Survivor's pain, to be suffered until death, not being there when his family died, and trying to find out why they did, with what little he can find as evidence. That cool little soty, matter of fact, is in the works.

Ah. Then I fear you risk having it be perceived as the wrong decision (note: not necessarily a bad thing). Also, I really would have expected them to leave a note, if only so if they failed the Imperium could quarantine the system and shoot some vortex torpedoes in.

Though, really, I think he's going to question whether it would have been different if he'd been there no matter how much evidence he has that what they did was the right thing. Survivor's guilt is hardly rational.

Explaining things IS the enemy, when you're trying to suprise and entertain other people with cool stories that answer all their questions, one bitter pill at a time... .

A bit of explanation can't kill surprise and entertainment and coolness. Well, it can kill surprise, obviously. But the last two are made of stronger stuff.

Ruining the plot because every single detail needs to be laid out first, sucks the fun out of writing creatively in the first place. On top of that, I like secrets. I like some things never being answered. As long as it isn't overdone, it can add some great flavour to a story.

It can. But it's important not to use it as a crutch to just avoid explaining things you're not sure how to explain (not saying you are, mind).

Besides, we already know roughly what happened (the story told us that). It's the execution from here that'll be interesting, and that's not the sort of thing that can get ruined by explanation.