Help and advice needed from Fluff Lawyers please

[Creeger]

Here’s the situation, I’m in the middle of building my first Chaos Space Marine warband as part of the E Tenebrae Lux painting challenge. I’ve played loyalist Marines for years, but my knowledge of Chaos fluff is somewhat lacking.

I want Khârn the Betrayer to lead my warband with a unit of Berzerkers led by a champion I call Zodd as the center piece of the force.

 

That much is all pretty straight forward to me. However, I also have two squads of Marines led by champions Frankenfer and Tarsus, along with a squad of havocs led by a champion I call Hugh.

That’s pretty much all I have planned for now, but I’ll very likely add a Daemon Prince later on.

All of the models will have the blood red with gold trim color scheme, just like World Eaters.

My problem sprang up when trying to name the warband. I’d originally thought to call them "The Violators", but someone pointed out that GW had already created a Violators warband. Their colors are blue and silver and they follow Slaanesh.

After some research, I found the Berserkers of Skallathrax. Their paint scheme and Khârn’s involvement with them fits what I’m looking for almost perfectly.

 

My problem lies in explaining the presence of the non-berzerkers, who happen to be in the same color scheme, in a small warband Khârn led away from Skallathrax after his little tantrum.

I think Angron had all of his legion turned into berzerkers, so I need help coming up with a story or a precedent for Khârn and a hand full of berzerkers recruiting marines and not implanting butcher’s nails in them. Would old World Eaters pick up strays like the Red Corsairs do?

I need to flesh out the story behind my warband and why they look like a unified force with Berzerkers in the lead. If it were the other way around, I’d find it easy to explain why the berzerkers joined some random warband, to kill stuff of course!  But why would berzerkers recruit chaos marines?
 

[HJL]

allied black legion for the non bezerkers. world eaters are small war bands now and often mercenary themselves. there is nothing to say that they wouldnt be in charge of some black legion marines over a large crusade..

[Rayray]

Or the black legion could be lending support to their cause

[HJL]

as far as names. pick a cool name for your lord and reavers.

 

Kra'agons Reavers. 

[Tenebris]

While most of the fluff points to the World Eaters as all berzerkers I doubt that will be the case almost ten thousand years after the Heresy. Indeed the time in the Eye runs forward, backward or something in between or does not run at all but I think that a "modern" warband would have a very small number of berzekers due to the specialist surgeons required for this cranial surgery, due to the amount of tech lost in those years and due to the very nature of marines.

 

Even the WE, barbaric as they seem would not implant such advanced tech in expendable marines, marines who have yet to learn how to live with their implants and have to actually grow wise enough to consider themselves marines. A power armor and some gene forging do not make a marine, but they make a raw recruit that needs to learn how to use his body, how to use weapons and how to live by the creed of their warband.

 

So the basic CSM could very well be the newer generations of the WE of your warband, still under the tutelage of the Chosen and the Aspiring Champions while your berzeker contingent are the true veterans, the vessels of the Blood God, the paladins of Khorne, the true World Eaters not just in name but in soul too.

 

We usually forget that not all CSM are veterans, many if not most of the "modern" CSM are actually standard marines who are still growing to become the true Veterans of the Long War, who have yet to become Noise Marines, Berzerkers or Plague Marines. I think that like in a standard loyalist marine such honor is not bestowed with the induction in a warband or with the gene forged rebirth but it is earned with decennia of war, toil, training and proving to ones superiors.

 

As a WE lord I would not entrust my chirurgeons to work their wonders upon a raw and unbloodied recruit, perhaps a former slavestock rised from the blood pits in my ship but I would indeed reward my most senior marines, the most fanatical, loyal with the cranial surgery to make them the true servants of Khorne, the berzerkers.

[Ironwithout]

Agree with Tenebris on this but to put it simply what the fluff points to in my opinion is all bezerkers are World Eaters but not all World Eaters are Bezerkers. Remember the main point here is the word Warband. A warband may well have nothing but berzerkers but it just as well may not. Would a chaos Lord who desires power or in the case of Khorne "Skulls" reject non berzerkers in his warband for the sake of it? only you can answer that! This one is easily Justified.

 

And if that isn't enough..... Your plastic your rules!

 

Good luck

[Excessus]

All legion warbands are full of marines with different gene-legacies. It's not too far-fetched that Khorne-marked marines would gravitate towards a World Eater core and join their warband together with their hardware. They would dream of getting nails implanted and to gain favor would do as much bloodshed they could with any weapons at their disposal, be it tanks, heavy weapons, boltguns or plasma.

 

They strive after an ideal, the close combat bloodshed and mayhem! But not all has reached the goal yet...

 

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

[Creeger]

@ Rayray & HJL – I’d like to stick to the colors I have the models painted already, which is red with gold trim. Going Black Legion would cause a color conflict

@ Tenebris & Excessus – Aw! I see, so it wouldn’t be weird for some members of a berserker warband to not be “Berzerkers” yet. That may simplify things much.

@ Ironwithout – I know it’s my warband and I can do whatever, but it bugs me when I make up some backstory for my models and then discover official fluff that contradicts my own. I’m just trying to do a little homework to avoid having that happen…again.

I did find two other possibilities. The Crimson Slaughter color scheme matches and their backstory doesn’t conflict with mine. However, I’m a bit hesitant to use them as they just made it into the spot light with their appearance in the core box set. I might feel like I’m jumping on the bandwagon if I were to use them.

The Beasts of Annihilation are another color scheme match for my models, but their fluff has a lot of possessed in it. Though I have no possessed in my collection, I do have a daemon prince planned for later. So that might work too.

I’ll keep pondering my options and keeping an eye on all of your excellent advice. Thank you all.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

It is a warband.  You can have all sorts of people in the same warband.  

 

Followers of chaos follow strong champions of chaos.  And Khârn is one of the best champions of chaos.

 

Plus- everything the excessus said.

[Sception]

Ironwithout, on 23 May 2013 - 13:07, said:

all bezerkers are World Eaters but not all World Eaters are Bezerkers.

Actually, neither is the case. Berzerkers are khorne dedicated veteran chaos marines with the 'butcher's nails' psycho-surgery & cybernetic implants. All of the original world eaters were given the Butcher's Nails, and all surviving original world eaters would, theoretically, be berzerkers (though I would argue that the berzerker unit profile does not adequately reflect this - specialists such as berzerker terminators, skullcrushers, etc should also exist, and as such it is reasonable to proxy to a certain extent to represent these concepts).

 

However, all of the legions have suffered considerable losses - they were the losing side of the heresy, and have warred constantly among each other and with the imperium since, so barely a fraction of those original World Eaters survive. Many of the berzerkers of today are instead post heresy chaos chaos marines, be they fallen loyalists or new space marines created with stolen gene-seed or Bile's more esoteric methods. Should these latter day chaos marines be chosen by khorne, prove themselves in battle, and pledge their services to one of those still able to perform the surgery, then they may be given the nails (the implants likely havested from a line of berzerkers tracing back to one of the original World eaters, and likely possessed in part by the spirits of their former owners, driving each subsequent generation to greater levels of insanity and bloodlust) and become berzerkers themselves.

 

While the majority of those with the technical expertise to perform the surgery are former World Eaters, that is not exclusively the case (Bile, for instance, could almost certainly do it), and furthermore original World Eaters do not travel exclusively with Warbands that still wear the World Eaters colors. Many are in the Black Legion, and several are likely to be found among other Legion warbands, leading non-Legion warbands, or as members of unaligned cults (the raptors, for instance, likely contain some number of former World Eaters among their ranks, given the prevelance of jump troops within the pre-heresy World Eaters forces).

 

 

So, what does this mean for OP's warband? It means the following:

 

- Khârn is certainly a Heresy-Era World Eater, and the various champions and HQs most likely are as well

 

- The Berzerker units are most likely made up of a mix of original World Eaters and post-heresy veterans who have proven themselves worthy of the nails of fallen berzerkers.

 

- The non-berzerker units are most likely post-heresy chaos marines drawn to the worship of Khorne who have not yet earned their nails, or for whome nails have not yet become available. A few of these units (particularly HQs, squad leaders, those with the 'veterans' ability, or members of independent cults such as raptors or dark mech units like oblits/muts) might instead be pre-heresy traitors from other legions who turned to the worship of Khorne and have subsequently chosen to abandon their former ties to follow Khârn as a sort of religious prophet. They may likewise either be awaiting their nails, or may be unable to recieve them due to existing brain augmentation - Even for those who fervently worship khorne, the nails may be incompatible with brains mutated by possessing daemons, or those whose neural systems have fused with their equipment such as bike or raptor cults - to say nothing of oblits, whose bodiew would probably just absorb the nails and break them down into ammunition, completely wasting what are now rare and valuable artifacts.

 

 

 

So, all original World Eaters are berzerkers at least, those that have not been drawn into some other cult (raptors, dark mechanicus, etc), but not all of these can be represented by the berzerker entry in the codex. And not all original World Eaters are still aligned with World Eaters warbands. And not all modern 'World Eaters' are original World Eaters - in fact they would be the minority of such (though certain rare individual warbands may be 'pure'), and not all modern 'World Eaters' are berzerkers (not enough nails to go around, not enough surgeons who know how to implant them), and not all new berzerkers created since the Heresy have been created within World Eaters warbands. If that isn't too confusing. All you can really say is more berzerkers fight for World Eaters warbands than those of other legion or non-legion affiliations.

 

The situation is similar for the other cults and their respective legions, though Thousand Sons is something of a unique case - in that no new thousand sons are 'created', though no old sons are permanently lost, and, much as the secret of implanting the butchers nails has spread to other factions, so too has the secret of binding the spirits of fallen Thousand Sons into new suits of empty power armor to serve new sorcerous masters.

[Kol Saresk]

Following Malisteen's point, we also have a variety of Berzerkers nowadays. Look at Uzas. His situation isn't exactly different from what we see of the Butcher's Nails. If anything, his situation is worse. There were also the chrono-gladiators of the Hellhounds from Perfection by Nick Kyme who had bombs implanted in them so when they died, Ka-BOOM!

 

And in the Codex entry for Berzerkers, it says how after Skalathrax, the berzerker-surgeons sought shelter with any nearby warband since then, many bastardized versions of the Nails have come into existence while a number of the best 'zerker-surgeons residing in World Eater warbands and the Black Legion.

 

Everyone above has provided great ideas with how to compose your warband.

[Ironwithout]

 

Ironwithout, on 23 May 2013 - 13:07, said:all bezerkers are World Eaters but not all World Eaters are Bezerkers.

Actually, neither is the case. Berzerkers are khorne dedicated veteran chaos marines with the 'butcher's nails' psycho-surgery & cybernetic implants. All of the original world eaters were given the Butcher's Nails, and all surviving original world eaters would, theoretically, be berzerkers (though I would argue that the berzerker unit profile does not adequately reflect this - specialists such as berzerker terminators, skullcrushers, etc should also exist, and as such it is reasonable to proxy to a certain extent to represent these concepts).However, all of the legions have suffered considerable losses - they were the losing side of the heresy, and have warred constantly among each other and with the imperium since, so barely a fraction of those original World Eaters survive. Many of the berzerkers of today are instead post heresy chaos chaos marines, be they fallen loyalists or new space marines created with stolen gene-seed or Bile's more esoteric methods. Should these latter day chaos marines be chosen by khorne, prove themselves in battle, and pledge their services to one of those still able to perform the surgery, then they may be given the nails (the implants likely havested from a line of berzerkers tracing back to one of the original World eaters, and likely possessed in part by the spirits of their former owners, driving each subsequent generation to greater levels of insanity and bloodlust) and become berzerkers themselves.While the majority of those with the technical expertise to perform the surgery are former World Eaters, that is not exclusively the case (Bile, for instance, could almost certainly do it), and furthermore original World Eaters do not travel exclusively with Warbands that still wear the World Eaters colors. Many are in the Black Legion, and several are likely to be found among other Legion warbands, leading non-Legion warbands, or as members of unaligned cults (the raptors, for instance, likely contain some number of former World Eaters among their ranks, given the prevelance of jump troops within the pre-heresy World Eaters forces).So, what does this mean for OP's warband? It means the following:- Khârn is certainly a Heresy-Era World Eater, and the various champions and HQs most likely are as well- The Berzerker units are most likely made up of a mix of original World Eaters and post-heresy veterans who have proven themselves worthy of the nails of fallen berzerkers.- The non-berzerker units are most likely post-heresy chaos marines drawn to the worship of Khorne who have not yet earned their nails, or for whome nails have not yet become available. A few of these units (particularly HQs, squad leaders, those with the 'veterans' ability, or members of independent cults such as raptors or dark mech units like oblits/muts) might instead be pre-heresy traitors from the World Eaters or other legions who worship Khorne and have chosen to follow Khârn as a sort of religious prophet. They may likewise either be awaiting their nails, or may be unable to recieve them due to existing brain augmentation - Even for those who fervently worship khorne, the nails may be incompatible with brains mutated by possessing daemons, or those whose neural systems have fused with their equipment such as bike or raptor cults - to say nothing of oblits, whose bodiew would probably just absorb the nails and break them down into ammunition, completely wasting what are now rare and valuable artifacts.So, all original World Eaters are berzerkers, but not all of these can be represented by the berzerker entry in the codex. And not all original World Eaters are still aligned with World Eaters warbands. And not all modern 'World Eaters' are original World Eaters - in fact they would be the minority of such (though certain rare individual warbands may be 'pure'), and not all modern 'World Eaters' are berzerkers (not enough nails to go around, not enough surgeons who know how to implant them), and not all new berzerkers created since the Heresy have been created within World Eaters warbands. If that isn't too confusing. All you can really say is more berzerkers fight for World Eaters warbands than those of other legion or non-legion affiliations.The situation is similar for the other cults and their respective legions, though Thousand Sons is something of a unique case - in that no new thousand sons are 'created', though no old sons are permanently lost, and, much as the secret of implanting the butchers nails has spread to other factions, so too has the secret of binding the spirits of fallen Thousand Sons into new suits of empty power armor to serve new sorcerous masters.

Hmm. I believe the appropriate word here is " schooled " lol

[Dam13n]

Probably the easiest justification from a fluff perspective is that the standard CSMs are recruits to the warband yet to earn the right to be implanted with the nails. That is if you're going for a World Eaters warband.

 

The other way would be to say that the Berserkers and Khârn are operating as mercenaries and are fighting with the warband in return for the right to claim the skulls of those slain by the warband.

[Sception]

Also, though this is less the case for a warband following Khârn specifically, World Eaters warlords are more than just crazed killing machines. They can appreciate the tactical advantage of fire support and other specialists, as well as the battlefield role of bullet fodder like cultists and lesser mutants. To say nothing of the need for Dark Mechanicus ties and naval specialists to maintain their killing machines and convey their warriors from battlefield to battlefield. Yes, the berzerkers will be their most honored chosen warriors, and large groups of them the pride of their military forces, but they will still seek out specialists to perform these other essential, if less glorious roles.

 

And Khorn itself isn't exclusively a chop chop melee nutter god. That's certainly one of its primary aspects, but Khorne is also a god of martial discipline, battle strategy, and great war engines. Khorne doesn't care from whom the blood flows, but it doesn't mind its servants having a preference. And while it may favor the close up, personal horror of hand to hand violence, when you get down to brass tacks (harr harr), it doesn't really care how the blood flows, either. A great cannon that can smash entire cities in a thunderous apocolypse of ash, fire, and blood is still quite pleasing to the god of battle.

 

So while Khârn may be a nutter whose nails never shut off, other World Eaters warlords will still go out of their way to incorporate non-cult units willing to dedicate themselves to the god of battle to support their chosen berzerkers on the battlefield.

[Creeger]

Wow, that's some really great info guys. I know a little of my Imperial history, but I'm near clueless about Chaos'. I think I'm going to work the Berserkers of Skallathrax angle. I really like that idea of the warband following Khârn around like some kind of Khoney Messiah. That's top notch stuff that I'll definitely use. 

 

Thank you all, it's all been a very interesting read and I really appreciate the help with this project.      

[chillin]

I don't see that you have a fluff problem at all. Does it say somewhere that ALL brzrkrs of skall(whatever) are all actual brzrkrs ? Just bc brzrkr is in the name of the war band need not mean that all members in the band are axe swinging madmen. As I was recently skooled, there are chapters out there with "legion" in the name that are not Legions. Even if at one time they all were brzrkrs, they would have to take and/or make new members or eventually die out as loses piled up, the newer members need not be brzrkrs. Why would they not plant "butchers nails" in them ? 1- Khârn or someone else saw the value in not making all the solders so whacko they couldn't use meltas, plaz, hvy weapons, or even bolters, etc. 2- they got tired of getting shot 15X each before they made it into hth b/c they had no covering or hvy weopons fire. 3- they got tired of trying to chop through AV 14 tanks with a chainaxe. 3- they realized that throwing their chainaxes at flyers really wasn't effective. need I go on ? . If I remember correctly, according to some of the fluff, the WE's going "berserk" was actually a "flaw" in the geneseed. You could (but need not) give the csm's squads MoK, I wouldn't do it on the havocs as it is a waste of pts. Why would they (non-brzrkrs) be in the "khorne" color scheme ? b/c that is the color of their warband and bc all khorne worshipers are not brzrkrs. All khorne worshipers need not give up all weapons except for a chainaxe, I'm guessing shooting some one several times with a 50 cal bolter or an autocannon spills lots of blood for the blood god too. And I am a bit of an old skool fluff Nazi (just ask some of the older members of the board) . BELIEVE me if I thought it was violating fluff I would tell you. Don't even bother trying to explain to me the "fluffy" reason your brzrkrs have slanny NM's led by a slanny sorc in your army !! But khorne worshiping csm's (khorne marked or not) , sure. (and havocs are just csm's trained/experienced in the use of hvy weapons). You have your you likecolor scheme picked out, want to use Khârn... and brzrkrs of skall(whatever) is a recognized warband , have that color scheme, have Khârn, and you like the fluff...sounds like the army you're supposed to be playing to me