So, Eldar...

[Koremu]

 

Or Deep Strike Multi-Melta Land Speeders behind it.

land speeders are probably the worst thing against elder due to there speed and the fact they can take heavy flamers as heavy flamers obliterate elder  units and ignore cover which so much of the new codex depends on. if you have land speeders you would be much better off taking out pathfinders or jet bikes ect then wasting them to maybe destroy 1 transport

Depends what's in the transport.

 

Also it would really help if you could spell, and apply basic grammatical rules. You said that Land Speeders are the worst option, and then listed a bunch of reasons why they are good...

[Hellios]

 

 

there by no means invincible they are just going to play very differently. all types of flamers are going to be a problem for them and they have next to nothing that can take flakk missiles  

 

I haven't done the maths but apparently someone else has. That says Warp Spiders are probably a better AA air option compared to say... War Walkers with Flakk missiles... Don't know why you would take Flakk missiles on a Dark Reaper Exarch.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You wouldn't.  You also would never keep the Death Mission psychic power.  Some things just seem like they're there because the author thought, "Ha!  Wouldn't it be funny if. . . "

[minigun762]

Autocannon equivalents are going to be solid against the vehicles but not that impressive fighting the T6 or T8 wraiths. There you'll want missiles at a minimum or lascannons.

 

You'll have to balance your weapon load outs for max efficiency, or find a short range alternative.

 

I'm finding Eldar quite resilient against melta weapons too.

[DWK]

Ever since the eldar codex came out I've been seeing a rise in lascannons and missile launchers for the heavy support choices on both armor and infantry.  Probably because these answer issues such as wraith knights, wraithlords, falcons and fire prisms all in one.

 

I agree with Helios that you will have to pick your poison when it comes to Eldar.  Marines are not built to have lots of guns so instead have to prioritize targets.  In a situation where marines are faced with multiple grav tanks, I would personally most of the time go for wraithknights, wraithlords, falcons and fire prisms over wave serpents.

 

Even if there was 1 wave serpent there with the dreaded ap 2 wraithguard flamers, the odds of me downing that vehicle vs. the other targets above will be much harder.  Even if I do manage to kill the vehicle and destroy it, the rest of the heavy hitters are going to pound me to dust next turn as I used more than the normal long range heavy weaponry to down a single wave serpent.

 

I think we will have to prepare for the wraithguard flamers in other ways aside from devoting long range fire power to keep them from closing in.  Perhaps it would be better to let them close in, kill whatever they want and subsequently punish them the next turn for disembarking and killing that unit.  Ideas that come to mind are:

 

1.   many marine bolters with a banner of devastation (dark angels only though)

2.   dreadnoughts who can shoot them and engage them in hth (rifleman/shooty dreads could still be viable given that they can shoot as they charge in for the assault)

3.   scouts with sniper rifles

4.   librarian with divination and a big marine squad with lots of guns (plasma preferably)

5.   another terminator squad that didn't get burned (thank god wraithguard do not have splitfire)

[Grey Mage]

 

Or Deep Strike Multi-Melta Land Speeders behind it.

land speeders are probably the worst thing against elder due to there speed and the fact they can take heavy flamers as heavy flamers obliterate elder  units and ignore cover which so much of the new codex depends on. if you have land speeders you would be much better off taking out pathfinders or jet bikes ect then wasting them to maybe destroy 1 transport

So much of the new codex got 3+ saves Id really suggest typhoons- stay outside of the 36" range on most eldar heavy weapons and fire missiles at those squads, then go a bit closer and frag+HB the 4+ or 5+ units to death.

 

 

 

 

there by no means invincible they are just going to play very differently. all types of flamers are going to be a problem for them and they have next to nothing that can take flakk missiles  

 

I haven't done the maths but apparently someone else has. That says WarpSpiders are probably a better AA air option compared to say... War Walkers with Flakk missiles... Don't know why you would take Flakk missiles on a Dark Reaper Exarch.

Im actually going to say Reapers with AA missiles wouldnt be so bad- 3+ exarch with fast shot and AA missiles is... 130pts. Going to be just as good vs all kinds of vehicles as 110pt WW, in some ways more durable to incoming fire since theyre infantry, and the AA shots are BS 5.

 

The AA option on the WW was overcosted, and with 15pt missile launchers running around already Im wondering why AA wasnt just included in the cost.

 

 

 

Even if there was 1 wave serpent there with the dreaded ap 2 wraithguard flamers, the odds of me downing that vehicle vs. the other targets above will be much harder.  Even if I do manage to kill the vehicle and destroy it, the rest of the heavy hitters are going to pound me to dust next turn as I used more than the normal long range heavy weaponry to down a single wave serpent.

 

I think we will have to prepare for the wraithguard flamers in other ways aside from devoting long range fire power to keep them from closing in.  Perhaps it would be better to let them close in, kill whatever they want and subsequently punish them the next turn for disembarking and killing that unit.  Ideas that come to mind are:

 

1.   many marine bolters with a banner of devastation (dark angels only though)

2.  dreadnoughts who can shoot them and engage them in hth (rifleman/shooty dreads could still be viable given that they can shoot

as they charge in for the assault)

3.   scouts with sniper rifles

4.   librarian with divination and a big marine squad with lots of guns (plasma preferably)

5.   another terminator squad that didn't get burned (thank god wraithguard do not have splitfire)

1) That means alot of bolter marines on the ground- remember, its 6's to wound. Even with double the shots youre looking at about 5 marines to down a single Wraithguard with bolter fire.

 

2) If you keep its CCW thats a good idea, but be careful keeping your dread close to the troops, those flamers pen vehicles on a 6 at AP2...

 

3) Keep divination handy to let them reroll. Otherwise youll have a hard time removing the squad, and this is one of those squads where every last member is magically destructive.

 

4) Quite possible, but probably not as efficient as plasma cannon devastators without divination- wich could go to scouts for hunting Lords/Knights.

 

5) Most people who are running Wraithguard troops in serpents seem to be running 2-4 of them, so careful with that. Id actually suggest vanguard with lightning claws, fists, or hammers- or a similarly outfitted command squad if youre not BA- as a good counter-assault unit vs Wraiths.

[minigun762]

I'm really surprised by the amount of 3+ saves Eldar have.

 

You might as well bring anti MEQ weapons to the table.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm really surprised by the amount of 3+ saves Eldar have.

 

You might as well bring anti MEQ weapons to the table.

 

Only one unit picked up a 3+ save -- Fire Dragons, who used to be a 4+ -- everything else with a 3+ save just got so much better than they were last edition that they've become the go-to units in the new codex.  That being said, all of their units except the wraiths are still just T3, so while our AP4 weapons went down in ability, bolters are still a decent weapon to use against them because of the easy of wounding and the number of attacks they can pump out at range.

[ClassicCarraway]

My take on Eldar is that its custom-tailored to kill Marines of all types pretty easily.  I think the total count of ranged weapons that are capable of AP2 or better (including bladestorm and monofiliment weapons) is around 21 or 22!  Every unit has AP3 or better capabilities.  If that isn't an anti-power armour army, I don't know what is.

 

My buddy who plays Eldar wants me to build him a marine list using my CF and and I play an Eldar army using his stuff, simply because I told him I might just avoid using marines against him for a bit (my Chaos Daemons actually won in the first game against the new book).

 

The saving grace that keeps Eldar from being completely OTT is the points cost.  2-3 wave serpents in a 1500 point army sucks up alot of points, along with those nasty wraith units.

[minigun762]

 

I'm really surprised by the amount of 3+ saves Eldar have.

 

You might as well bring anti MEQ weapons to the table.

 

Only one unit picked up a 3+ save -- Fire Dragons, who used to be a 4+ -- everything else with a 3+ save just got so much better than they were last edition that they've become the go-to units in the new codex.  That being said, all of their units except the wraiths are still just T3, so while our AP4 weapons went down in ability, bolters are still a decent weapon to use against them because of the easy of wounding and the number of attacks they can pump out at range.

True, a lot of units didn't pick it up but many of the top units that you're going to see on the tabletop are going to be sporting it.

Anything "Wraith" will have it, as will Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders both of which are pretty amazing. Most importantly I think is the fact that Bikers will have it and I'm expecting them to be the new standard troop choice.

[ClassicCarraway]

Ever since the eldar codex came out I've been seeing a rise in lascannons and missile launchers for the heavy support choices on both armor and infantry. Probably because these answer issues such as wraith knights, wraithlords, falcons and fire prisms all in one.

 

I agree with Helios that you will have to pick your poison when it comes to Eldar. Marines are not built to have lots of guns so instead have to prioritize targets. In a situation where marines are faced with multiple grav tanks, I would personally most of the time go for wraithknights, wraithlords, falcons and fire prisms over wave serpents.

 

Even if there was 1 wave serpent there with the dreaded ap 2 wraithguard flamers, the odds of me downing that vehicle vs. the other targets above will be much harder. Even if I do manage to kill the vehicle and destroy it, the rest of the heavy hitters are going to pound me to dust next turn as I used more than the normal long range heavy weaponry to down a single wave serpent.

 

I think we will have to prepare for the wraithguard flamers in other ways aside from devoting long range fire power to keep them from closing in. Perhaps it would be better to let them close in, kill whatever they want and subsequently punish them the next turn for disembarking and killing that unit. Ideas that come to mind are:

 

1. many marine bolters with a banner of devastation (dark angels only though)

2. dreadnoughts who can shoot them and engage them in hth (rifleman/shooty dreads could still be viable given that they can shoot as they charge in for the assault)

3. scouts with sniper rifles

4. librarian with divination and a big marine squad with lots of guns (plasma preferably)

5. another terminator squad that didn't get burned (thank god wraithguard do not have splitfire)

You'd be crazy to try and assault D-scythe wielding Wraithguard with anything other than a horde unit (say 20 chaos marines) or TH/SS termies. In overwatch, a squad of 5 wraithguard is doing an average of 10 auto hits, 5 wounds at AP2. Dreadnaughts in particular should be weary, as that's a minimum of one AP2 penetrating hit. However, if the dread survives, its pretty much going to grind the WG down to nothing over a few turns since they won't be able to hurt it. Good thing the Wave Serpent that dropped off the WG can just shoot the holy heck out of the dread.

 

I'm very curious to see if there are any good counters for Eldar in the C:SM book at the moment. So far, I'm not seeing a lot outside of land raiders and TH/SS termies.

[minigun762]

Assaulting Plague Marines actually work well against D-Scythe.

10 hits = 3.3 wounds = 2.2 dead after FnP. PMs have two attacks each that wound on 4's.

[Koremu]

I'm very curious to see if there are any good counters for Eldar in the C:SM book at the moment. So far, I'm not seeing a lot outside of land raiders and TH/SS termies.

Vindicators work.

I'm not terribly sure about Land Raiders given the expense and the prevalence of Lance weapons.

Still, TH/SS Terminators work against just about everything... as do Vindicators

[Hellios]

I'm very curious to see if there are any good counters for Eldar in the C:SM book at the moment. So far, I'm not seeing a lot outside of land raiders and TH/SS termies.

Vindicators work.

I'm not terribly sure about Land Raiders given the expense and the prevalence of Lance weapons.

Still, TH/SS Terminators work against just about everything... as do Vindicators

I would say it depends on what the Eldar player has... I wouldn't say a vindicator is great against Wave Serpents. Vindicators also have a pretty limited range, so it seems likely that the Eldar will be able to shoot it first.

[Selleck]

I really have trouble finding ways to crack the nut called Wave Serpent:

 

Is the only way to get a fairly alright shot at a wave serpent, is a rear-shot?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Don't bother trying to push penetrating hits through its layers of defenses, brother.  Go for the glances -- massed missiles and autocannons.

[Koremu]

I really have trouble finding ways to crack the nut called Wave Serpent:

 

Is the only way to get a fairly alright shot at a wave serpent, is a rear-shot?

Or kill it by glances. It doesn't have very high AV. Average of 9 Krak Missiles to kill one that way.

[Grey Mage]

 

I really have trouble finding ways to crack the nut called Wave Serpent:

 

Is the only way to get a fairly alright shot at a wave serpent, is a rear-shot?

Or kill it by glances. It doesn't have very high AV. Average of 9 Krak Missiles to kill one that way.

More like 18- it should be getting a 4+ cover save each turn.

[Selleck]

 

 

 

I really have trouble finding ways to crack the nut called Wave Serpent:

Is the only way to get a fairly alright shot at a wave serpent, is a rear-shot?

 

Or kill it by glances. It doesn't have very high AV. Average of 9 Krak Missiles to kill one that way.

More like 18- it should be getting a 4+ cover save each turn.

That's what annoys me!

 

They are too good to be ignored - they just have too many/good weapons, so you can't just let them run around...

[ClassicCarraway]

 

 

 

 

I really have trouble finding ways to crack the nut called Wave Serpent:

Is the only way to get a fairly alright shot at a wave serpent, is a rear-shot?

Or kill it by glances. It doesn't have very high AV. Average of 9 Krak Missiles to kill one that way.

More like 18- it should be getting a 4+ cover save each turn.

That's what annoys me!

 

They are too good to be ignored - they just have too many/good weapons, so you can't just let them run around...

Yeah, and if you don't manage to kill them fast enough, you end up with AP2 spewing flame templates or 6 meltas in your backfield.   Nope, no power creep in this book, no sir...

 

I just hope the next codex (ie, Codex:Space Marines) continues the trend (providing its not too over the top, we don't need another Necron book)

[Scarrie]

 

 

I'm very curious to see if there are any good counters for Eldar in the C:SM book at the moment. So far, I'm not seeing a lot outside of land raiders and TH/SS termies.

 

The most success I've had against Eldar so far involved 2 Land Raiders and a Vindicator.

Granted I got a little bit lucky on a couple of occasions but the target saturation of high AV worked quite well.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

 

 

 

I really have trouble finding ways to crack the nut called Wave Serpent:

Is the only way to get a fairly alright shot at a wave serpent, is a rear-shot?

Or kill it by glances. It doesn't have very high AV. Average of 9 Krak Missiles to kill one that way.

More like 18- it should be getting a 4+ cover save each turn.

That's what annoys me!

 

They are too good to be ignored - they just have too many/good weapons, so you can't just let them run around...

Yeah, and if you don't manage to kill them fast enough, you end up with AP2 spewing flame templates or 6 meltas in your backfield.   Nope, no power creep in this book, no sir...

 

I just hope the next codex (ie, Codex:Space Marines) continues the trend (providing its not too over the top, we don't need another Necron book)

You know... it costs more than a Vendetta does, and the Vendetta is arguably better in every way but anti-infantry.... and three years older. Or the Nightscythe.

 

It also costs more than the combi-pred youd want to use to take it out reliably. So I dont think youll find a single eldar player whos sympathetic to you not being able to one shot it with a tactical squads lascannon.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I was at a team tourney this past weekend, my Marines and my buddy's Eldar went up against a Tau-Eldar team. Watching the two sets of Eldar grav tanks trying to kill each other was like watching a sissy slap-fight -- lots of dice rolling, no one dying. Until the Tau opened up. . .

[Garath]

The best weapons against fast moving skimmers are mid ST,ignore cover weapons. I play Dark Angles and am sad to say I cannot think of any

Wave serpants have 4+ cover as soon as they move and downgrade penns to glances on 2+.

So my taughts on Wave serpants with Cheese Wraith inside:

Nothing in my codex can deal with that except if I go first and they are on the table (for some reason) .

Then an IC with night visor (ignores night fight) joins a shooty unit so they ignore night fight and the Wave serpants will get only a 6+ cover.

Alternatively, Perfect timing (Divination) gives a unit ignore cover special rule...so that might be used once they start flying around (and they will ) .

This is all best combined with a Devastator squad - and I dislike using those as they can't move and shoot.

I taught about indirect fire barrage but it states it only ever hits side armor of vehicles- so no benefit there.

Drop podding a Dread with a multi melta is another classic that won't work- it has to hit (which it probably will) , the penn (which it also will ) , then that famous cover save 4+ from the "speed" od the Wave serpant ....and the 4+ to destroy the thing.

Drop podding plasma wielding veterans might prove decent. They are however doomed as soon as they land - just like the dread . Five of them with plasmas have 10 shots (providing I give them a re-roll somehow ) with re-roll...so that's ...8-9 hits. Hopefully no 1s but you can never be sure.

Then those 8-9 hits are like...3 penns and 4 glances- and after 4+ cover- the thing WILL go down.

The real shame with this is that the old "block the door" trick that was so awesome with land speeders vs eldar doesn't work anymore- no matter how devastated the vehicle is- guys inside still jump out even if you block the door

[Selleck]

I think I just made up my mind to get some Tau allies: so they can throw some Marker lights (that ignore all saves) on those Wave Serpents cans and crack them open with their Big fellow and his gun...