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Allegiace of Lorgar and Perturabo: To wich god they belong?


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#1
RapatoR

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A while ago, there was a discussion about Chaos Undivided, where A D-B explained how lore about Chaos is currently viewed in GW studio (there is no Chaos Undivided, all Chaos manifestations, ultimately belong to one god or another, including Daemon Princes). This was further cemented by release of CSM a CD dexes.

 

One thing that bugged me ever since was, to which god Lorgar and Perturabo devoted themselves? (Since they obviously can't be Undivided Princes.) Are there any clues from present or previous lore?


Edited by RapatoR, 30 August 2013 - 09:21 AM.

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#2
Shifte

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Perturabo is closest to Nurgle, due to the one bit of lore post Heresy about him. I dislike this though, and I believe that a non-aligned Daemon Prince is still plausible.

 

Therefore I vote for unaligned. :)


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#3
Balthamal

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That's a bit of a thorny question to answer since there's a lot of published material from BL that pretty much explicitly states that (in the case of) Lorgar, views himself as the Archpriest of all the gods of the warp, and also has a general understanding that, like men, those gods lie to further their own agenda. It could be something as simple as he is blessed by all 4 of the powers beyond the veil or something deeper, like he has harnessed the power of the language of creation (something that's hinted at in Betrayer)

 

Perturabo is a different kettle of fish since he doesn't really have any religius convictions regarding the pantheon so unless something is clarified one way or the other I suppose it's open to interpretation.



#4
Kol_Saresk

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Well, not entirely true. There is no such thing as "unaligned". One thing the new Codex fails to show is that there is such a thing as "aligned to more than one". We see this only in Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant and how is able to join any unit, regardless of the Mark. Undivided literally means that, undivided, not unmarked. Unfortunately, while the concept still exists, it is not properly shown in the Codex. That said,

I think Lorgar is somewhere between Tzeentch and Khorne. He's orchestrated the massacre of One Hundred Worlds and is one of the minds behind the entire Heresy.
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#5
Iron_Within

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I cannot see Perturabo falling to a particular god, yes they mention a Nurgle Plague but his personality could fall to any of the 4 powers, Khorne because of his rages, Tzeentch because of his keen intellect and desire to change things for the better (the most bitter of men deep in their heart still dare to dream), Nurgle because when he finds out Horus has betrayed him he is very likely to fall to despair or at a stretch Slaanesh due to his complete nihilism (obsession etc.). There is the other answer that he could be the first Obliterator, melding machine, the Warp and his own body to achieve immortality for his own ends instead of a god. I would be a form of Nurgle, focussing on Despair rather than disease as when he isn't killing stuff (which is rare), he is brooding in the centre of Medrendrad.

 

I think it stated pretty explicitly in the novel that at the time of Angel Exterminatus that above all Perturabo is a Nihilist and truly believes in nothing, having been disappointed with the universe.

Lorgar I see could fall one of two ways. Firstly, he's weak minded and easily led by Kor Phaeron who's been using him from the start. He could be tricked into ascending into one powers daemonhood by Kor or Erebus, becoming a slave of that God in return for immense power (betrayal has power to Chaos, what would be the power in Kor, Lorgar's adoptive father and mentor betraying his 'son'). If this was the case he has become a pawn of that god and would partly explain why he takes no part in the running of his Legion in 40k (which is handled by the Dark Apostles). 

Second, he could have achieved Daemonhood on his own; a truly transcendent Apotheosis. Despite being a fanatic, Lorgar could dream of his own ascension to Godhood, and be in a position at this time, and as such, cannot take part in the running of his Legion.


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#6
Kol_Saresk

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Iron_Within, on 29 Aug 2013 - 19:06, said:
Lorgar I see could fall one of two ways. Firstly, he's weak minded and easily led by Kor Phaeron who's been using him from the start. He could be tricked into ascending into one powers daemonhood by Kor or Erebus, becoming a slave of that God in return for immense power (betrayal has power to Chaos, what would be the power in Kor, Lorgar's adoptive father and mentor betraying his 'son'). If this was the case he has become a pawn of that god and would partly explain why he takes no part in the running of his Legion in 40k (which is handled by the Dark Apostles).
Second, he could have achieved Daemonhood on his own; a truly transcendent Apotheosis. Despite being a fanatic, Lorgar could dream of his own ascension to Godhood, and be in a position at this time, and as such, cannot take part in the running of his Legion.

Originally, I planned on just putting bits and pieces into spoilers, but it seems easier to just throw the whole thing into tags. Spoilers are from Betrayer by A D-B, the short story The Underground War by A D-B in the Mark of Calth Anthology and a bit from Vulkan Lives by Nick Kyme and Fear to Tread by James Swallow. I am using spoiler tags because I am unsure how much people have read.

Spoiler

Edited by Kol_Saresk, 29 August 2013 - 11:39 PM.

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#7
daboarder

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Well abbadon has managed to become the champion of chaos undivided so.....yeah its well and truly still around its just GW trying to push BS down the throats of chaos players to jsutify the pitiful amount of effort we have gotten since 4th.



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#8
Wade Garrett

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In the Black Crusade RPG it's possible to ascend as a daemon prince of Chaos Undivided if you earn enough renown without tying yourself too closely to any of the Four Gods in particular.

Hypothesis:
Such an ascension is less "Ha ha ha, now I have eternity to do what I want, get bent Chaos Gods" and more you being a puppet on strings pulled by all four of them instead of just one.

For in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only dark grimness.
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#9
Kol_Saresk

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Hypothesis:
Such an ascension is less "Ha ha ha, now I have eternity to do what I want, get bent Chaos Gods" and more you being a puppet on strings pulled by all four of them instead of just one.

For in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only dark grimness.

^This is the only downside I see for being Undivided. The support of all four can give you immense power, but the cost of that power is proportional.
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#10
minigun762

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I'm still a fan of the idea that the big four are "merely" the most powerful beings in the warp, but by no means the only denizens.

 

I could see the possibility of gathering sufficient energy from the other beings, by deals or enslavement, to power your rise to daemonhood.


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#11
RapatoR

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Well I suspected that many people won't like this old/renewed lore, that puts undivided and lesser gods out of game (I strugle with it too), but since we had this discussion: http://www.bolterand...nfusion/page-1

and CSM and CD came out, it became obvious that current lore basically says that every daemon (and daemon prince) is part of big four. 

 

Yes Abby is champion of all four, but that is rather unique state. He constantly resists temptations of gods to be theirs and theirs alone. And that seems to be the very reason why he is not a DP yet. Because he never became champion of one god.

 

I know that a lot of people vere "undivided" fans. I was among them and I might not like this change, but I want to understand lore as it currently is, so I am trying to grasp it.


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#12
SRSFACE

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They were Primarchs. They were essentially Demigods to begin with. The 4 of them that currently have rules all have things about them that are exceptionally unique. Abaddon, as power as he is, is a wimp compared to a Primarch, and yet he's blessed of all 4 Gods. Who's to say they have to be aligned with one god here or there?

 

Doesn't matter if there is some "law" that says Daemon Princes "have to be" aligned with one of the Gods; the Primarchs and their status in the universe could very well mean they are Daemon "Princes" simply because those were the beings most similar to the power they possess.

 

Lorgar could not be aligned with just one God. I'm sorry. It wouldn't fit his fluff at all to only have the blessing of one God of Chaos. Perturabo, same way. People say "Nurgle" but he is not pestilent any more than your typical denizen of the warp is.

 

Outside of each chapter devoted to one of the gods (Thousand Sons: Tzeentch, Emperor's Children: Slaanesh, World Eaters: Khorne, Death Guard: Nurgle), the other 3 living daemon prince primarchs don't strike me as having loyalty to any of the chaos gods. The guy we didn't touch on is Alpharius, who might not actually be alive after all because who knows, Alpha Legion. I guess if someone twisted my arm, he could also be Tzeentch. Then again, maybe he's loyalist still. Or something. Because who knows, Alpha Legion!



#13
Iron_Within

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Kol_Saresk, on 30 Aug 2013 - 00:38, said:

Iron_Within, on 30 Aug 2013 - 00:01, said:
Iron_Within, on 29 Aug 2013 - 19:06, said:
Lorgar I see could fall one of two ways. Firstly, he's weak minded and easily led by Kor Phaeron who's been using him from the start. He could be tricked into ascending into one powers daemonhood by Kor or Erebus, becoming a slave of that God in return for immense power (betrayal has power to Chaos, what would be the power in Kor, Lorgar's adoptive father and mentor betraying his 'son'). If this was the case he has become a pawn of that god and would partly explain why he takes no part in the running of his Legion in 40k (which is handled by the Dark Apostles).
Second, he could have achieved Daemonhood on his own; a truly transcendent Apotheosis. Despite being a fanatic, Lorgar could dream of his own ascension to Godhood, and be in a position at this time, and as such, cannot take part in the running of his Legion.

Originally, I planned on just putting bits and pieces into spoilers, but it seems easier to just throw the whole thing into tags. Spoilers are from Betrayer by A D-B, the short story The Underground War by A D-B in the Mark of Calth Anthology and a bit from Vulkan Lives by Nick Kyme and Fear to Tread by James Swallow. I am using spoiler tags because I am unsure how much people have read.

Spoiler

Spoiler


Who knows with Alpha Legion... It's so dam true.

On the note of Nurgle, Disease is only the form that he/she/it takes in it's primary form. Each god is an expression of a primary of emotion, something raw and untempered, in Nurgle's case despair. Greatest form of despair comes disease, but entropy of the soul and despair the desire to see that which is around you fail and fall to ruin leads to Nurgle as well. Purely thinking of the Gods of Chaos as about Berzerkers, Disease, Magic and Pleasure is one dimensional, they are far more multifaceted than that, the cults are simply the purest(?) expression of that, well especially in Khorne's case, berzerkers are those who have lost all pretence, but they are also shaped by the Legion that made them the World Eaters. Martial Honour, Guns, blades everything that involved violence feeds him. Everything that involves any despair or desire for stagnancy feeds Nurgle, any desire or change feeds Tzeentch and any form of pleasure, happiness or satisfaction feeds Slaanesh.

There is even mention in one of the Heresy novels (that involves the perspective of a daemon in a way) that worship of the Emperor feeds the warp and so the daemons and gods therein as well acting as a shield against them. It would provide an excellent explanation for the concept of the Imperial Truth; only pure rational thought and the elimination of superstition starves the Warp and it's denizens.

Edited by Iron_Within, 30 August 2013 - 10:15 AM.

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#14
daveNYC

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A problem with putting Perturabo in with Nurgle is that in Angel Exterminatus we see that Perturabo is a great architect.  Architects build, design, and create things (and the fact that Perturabo was never really allowed to do so is a part of why he turns) while Nurgle represents entropy, which is basically the opposite of all that.  Perturabo could go with Nurgle, but that would mean ditching a large part of his Heresy era personality.  Nothing too wrong with that, but I'd really want to see the character development that leads to that.

 

Personally I'd say that GW has their heads well embedded within their lower sphincters regarding Chaos, and that given the rather mercurial nature of GW's fluff department all we'd need to do is go "la-la-la can't hear you" for maybe four years and odds are that undivided will be a thing again.

 

Seriously, Lorgar is the very definition of an Chaos Undivided worshiper.  He thinks Chaos is teh awesomenessest thing evah, I have no idea how you can get from that to saying he's gone all in for only one of the gods without having "because shut up, that's why" as one of the reasons.

 

Dear GW: Please have the big four simply be emergent and more easily grasped sub-personalities of a gestalt consciousness that is truly unknowable due to it being made up of all contradictory elements and representing the elemental nature of Chaos.  ie. The Immaterium is alive and sentient, but in a way that we can never understand, the Big Four are simply dominant aspects of the greater entity that reflect more directly the materium's psychic influence on the warp, and as such are what everyone deals with since crazy chaos entity is crazy.  Then just make up stuff that says that Lorgar is so into Chaos as a whole, that he's able to get a minor glimpse behind the curtain and bamo, prince time.

 

tl;dr?  Chaos is Azathoth, uknowable.  The Big Four are different flavors of Nyarlathotep, who can be bargained with, but not to be trusted.


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#15
malisteen

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Alternatively, just say that multiple powers can come together to elevate a champion when it suits them, to lead their forces in mutual endeavors. We already have this fluff multiple times in cannon - Horus, and Abaddon come immediately to mind, and while they aren't princes as such, there's also Belakor, who remains in cannon of both Fantasy and 40k, and is currently hanging out with the Black Legion as of their Supplement.

How am I supposed to represent Belakor on the table, without the ability to field undivided princes? Furthermore, there is not enough space in the game to support four separate daemon codeces, so we only get one daemon book. That works fine when you have undivided princes there to lead multiply aligned forces to battle, but without them it makes little sense. The knots the current daemon book ties itself in to justify Bloodthirsters that would tolerate daemonettes in their forces or horrors willing to fight for great unclean ones are far more ridiculous and annoying than the concept of 'chaos undivided' ever was.

Whether they bring it back as a 'fifth mark', or as the ability to field princes without mark, or bring back the old gimmick of being able to give models multiple marks, we need some kind of mixed alignment or non-alignment daemonic commanders for mixed alignment daemonic armies (again made obligatory simply due to the available game support) make sense.

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#16
Kol_Saresk

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@Iron_Within:
Spoiler


Undivided is still here though. It's just not how we are used to it. We're use to seeing Undivided as Unmarked. "This person serves all four." That the individuals are Undivided. And that, is not what Undivided truly is.

Undivided is a state where one is willing to work with natural rivals for a shared goal of hatred. An Undivided warband is not a warband where no one is Marked by Gods; it's a warband where a Berzerker fights alongside a Slaaneshi Swordsman and a Tzeentchi shaman helps fuel the plagues of a Nurglite sorcerer.

That is Undivided. True Chaos Undivided. All the powers of the Big Four focussed into one area. But look at how much strife still exists in the warband. The Swordsman is planning to slice the ligaments of the Berzerker's legs during the next battle and leaving him to the Enemy. The Nurglite sorcerer has posioned the shaman's tea with an undetectable warp plague that will leave him as a twitching wreck that physically resembles a Nurgling, but possesses the intelligence of a rock.

Can you imagine what it takes to focus that into one individual? To have all four Gods pouring their power into you? Two pairs of rivals that are no just fighting over you, but in you as well.

If, you can find a way to control it, the sheer amount of power will always be at risk of tearing you apart. Look at Abaddon. According to that little blip from someone A D-B was talking to, Abaddon's strength and influence waxes and wanes with the Gods themselves as a result of the power they have given him. And he hasn't even given himself over to them.

And yet he bears all of their Marks. Not none of them like most "traditional" Undivided Armies, but all of them.

The problem with the Codex is that he is the only person/unit that can do this. The only way to show this across the army is a unit here with MoT, some NM there, a CSM with MoK, and then a Nurgle HQ.

Personally, I'd love to see a Chaos HQ that can get more than one Mark. Personally, I would accept some sort of points tax for being able to use at least one more Mark, but it'd be awesome to see something like Firestorm's Khorne/Nurgle Daemon Prince on the field. And that would also be an Undivided unit.

Sadly, GW finally gives us a proper explanation of Undivided. Sadly, the only way to show it is with a unit here, or a character there.
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#17
daveNYC

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That's the other way of looking at Chaos Undivided.  You've still got everyone working for one of the big four, but they've managed to put those differences behind them long enough to be able to function together as a team, or at least that's what the Tzeentch guy want's all the other players to think.  That's different from my take where Undivided means drawing support and power from a level of Chaos that isn't differentiated into personifications of certain primal emotions.



#18
malisteen

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And yet undivided remains in cannon - Horus, Abaddon, Belakor. In the fluff, when the gods come together to work towards some mutual aim, they elevate a communal champion to lead their forces. Mixed daemon forces make a lot more sense with such a character available as an option. I'm not saying we need undivided as a whole separate subset of daemons, I'm not saying we need an undivided mark or undivided greater or lesser daemons, but daemon princes at least should have some sort of unaligned or multiply aligned option.

That said, I do prefer a version of the warp that is bigger than just the four gods. Something vast and unknowable and alien, instead of four rigid boxes each based on a single cliche emotional stereotype. The current conception of chaos just feels so... small. And petty.

Edited by malisteen, 30 August 2013 - 01:57 PM.

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#19
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Forgive me as I dont have time to read all the previous posts, but chiming into the OP:

 

The former problem was the people saw the 'mark of chaos undivided' as worshipping no god in particular, despite the number of frothing people on the internet that claim so.

 

Being undivided was simply having no allegiance to a particular god, but worshipping the aspects of each that they needed each day. Like the old greeks, they believed in the pantheon, but would worship poseidon before sailing, ares before fighting, etc.

 

Perturabo using a nurgle warp disease to infect a planet doesnt mean he is devoted to nurgle, more that he said to nurgle: "Hey, give me a disease, and I'll use it to bring suffering in your name" and nurgle went "seems legit" and gave it to him.

 

Iron within nails it with the gods are the emotion, as opposed to the physical manifestation of their power.

 

Perturabo despaired as his legion was being broken up.

He shows cunning by luring Dorn into the Iron Cage.

He shows rage in battle, and is fuelled by rage at the perceived slights done to his legion.

He shows excess in the grand and perfect designs of his fortresses.

He shows his melancholy side by acknowledging that all fortresses will fall eventually.

 

Likewise lorgar shows all these sides also.

 

Rage at the slight done to his legion

Cunning, by orchestrating the horus heresy, manipulating Horus and the other primarchs 

Despair, causing him to go to the eye in search of the answers int eh first place.

 

etc etc.


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#20
Kol_Saresk

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And like the Greeks, if they were going into battle, they might call upon Khorne for the strength to crush their foes, or Slaanesh so their blades might strike true. They might give blessing to Nurgle the Life-giver for the food they are about to eat, or Tzeentch that this prototype warp-cannon will not blow up in their faces. Even if it is only for an instant, they will be aligned to wards the specific power they are praying to as they draw its attention to them, the same way a Greek farmer would call upon Artemis while he was hunting, and then Dionysus so his vineyard might grow healthy and prosperous. and then Ares when he has to defend his home from barbarians.
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#21
Lay

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The former problem was the people saw the 'mark of chaos undivided' as worshipping no god in particular, despite the number of frothing people on the internet that claim so.
 
Being undivided was simply having no allegiance to a particular god, but worshipping the aspects of each that they needed each day. Like the old greeks, they believed in the pantheon, but would worship poseidon before sailing, ares before fighting, etc.

Actually both views are (or rather were) equally valid.
This is from the 3.5 codex:

Men are not given to understand such matters, and the diverse followings of Chaos Undivided worship it in many different forms.

In its most literal sense, Chaos Undivided is a pantheon of gods; the four major powers occupying opposing points on a compass. When a follower worships he may direct his tributes to the god most able to answer his pleas. Such a follower may receive the blessings of each of the gods at different times, but is unlikely to gain the favour granted to an individual dedicated wholly to one power. The cultist may also honour the minor spirits of the Warp if he feels they may be able to aid him. [...]

Others worship Chaos Undivided as a single entity. They perceive the various powers as merely aspects of one vast, malevolent intelligence which mortals cannot hope to engage on any but the most basic level. These followers may ally themselves with the other powers, but will never give themselves fully to one god, seeking instead to follow a purer form of devotion to Chaos in its unadulterated whole.

Another form of worship of Chaos Undivided may be seen in those who look to use Chaos to their own ends, and seek only temporary pacts with the powers. These misguided individuals see their own ambitions as above those of the Chaos powers. This is the ultimate gamble, with but two possible outcomes: daemonhood or damnation.

Edited by Lay, 30 August 2013 - 05:25 PM.


#22
Kol_Saresk

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The former problem was the people saw the 'mark of chaos undivided' as worshipping no god in particular, despite the number of frothing people on the internet that claim so.
 
Being undivided was simply having no allegiance to a particular god, but worshipping the aspects of each that they needed each day. Like the old greeks, they believed in the pantheon, but would worship poseidon before sailing, ares before fighting, etc.

Actually both views are (or rather were) equally valid.
This is from the 3.5 codex:

Men are not given to understand such matters, and the diverse followings of Chaos Undivided worship it in many different forms.

In its most literal sense, Chaos Undivided is a pantheon of gods; the four major powers occupying opposing points on a compass. When a follower worships he may direct his tributes to the god most able to answer his pleas. Such a follower may receive the blessings of each of the gods at different times, but is unlikely to gain the favour granted to an individual dedicated wholly to one power. The cultist may also honour the minor spirits of the Warp if he feels they may be able to aid him. [...]

Others worship Chaos Undivided as a single entity. They perceive the various powers as merely aspects of one vast, malevolent intelligence which mortals cannot hope to engage on any but the most basic level. These followers may ally themselves with the other powers, but will never give themselves fully to one god, seeking instead to follow a purer form of devotion to Chaos in its unadulterated whole.

Another form of worship of Chaos Undivided may be seen in those who look to use Chaos to their own ends, and seek only temporary pacts with the powers. These misguided individuals see their own ambitions as above those of the Chaos powers. This is the ultimate gamble, with but two possible outcomes: daemonhood or damnation.


However, currently we only see

In its most literal sense, Chaos Undivided is a pantheon of gods; the four major powers occupying opposing points on a compass. When a follower worships he may direct his tributes to the god most able to answer his pleas. Such a follower may receive the blessings of each of the gods at different times, but is unlikely to gain the favour granted to an individual dedicated wholly to one power. The cultist may also honour the minor spirits of the Warp if he feels they may be able to aid him. [...]


Apparently, GW has since decided to "trim the flufffat" and decide to only go with the most literal sense.

Although, I would still like to see some of the minor spirits of the warp in action.
Fortium Fracti
"We have received your offer of surrender and reject it; we did not come to receive your supplication but to enact judgement. The time for surrender has long passed. The verdict is writ by your own hands. Now is the time to die." Nostraman_zpsf4be09e4.pnggallery_29004_9303_9178.png

#23
Sedekiel

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I think all the Chaos Legions have a percentage of Chaotic influence in them, but these numbers differ... 

Even Night Lords have a tendency towards Khorne/Slaanesh=thrill of the hunt/violence/causing fear.

 

IMHO the actual wording that "ticks" almost everyone Undivided follower here is the "mark" wording. Mark has always been in my mind as "promised to", Mark Of Khorne=promised to Khorne.

If the wording/ruling was "Blessings" ( a weaker form of the actual Mark rules) that allowed the undivided characters to get multiple blessings and the mark was saved for the four specific God Legions I wouldnt mind this fluff/ruling for "erasing" Undivided boons.

 

Abbadon as an undivided character gets boons from all the Gods because each is trying to lure him, exactly how "blessings"should work trying to lure the Chaos Lord to his mark (in my mind at least).


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Nostraman_zpsf4be09e4.png


#24
Kol_Saresk

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That is true. How we see marks is one marking him/herself to a specific God, and that is true. However, as shown by the Night Lord Cyrion and Abaddon, the mark is also an attempt by one(or more) god(s) attempting to go "This mortal is mine". In the case of Cyrion, Slaanesh made the claim and even made it possible for Cyrion to become even more of sadist, even though we never once have a record of Cyrion mentioning the Ruinous Powers in anything except scorn. The Mark is a two way road. It can be done by the follower, or by the god. Now when we get to Banners, well there is no doubt that a Banner is wholly done by the mortal the same way that mortals are the ones who build altars, not the gods.

Basically, one can choose to wear a Mark, or one can be Marked.
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Fortium Fracti
"We have received your offer of surrender and reject it; we did not come to receive your supplication but to enact judgement. The time for surrender has long passed. The verdict is writ by your own hands. Now is the time to die." Nostraman_zpsf4be09e4.pnggallery_29004_9303_9178.png

#25
Iron_Within

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Next couple of months will see the release of the next FW HH book which will contain both Lorgar and Perturabo. There might be further hints at what their legions are like or even stage setters for what will (or might) happen that we haven't seen yet.


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