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Nature vs. Nurture, the What If? edition


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#1
Conn Eremon

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For anybody interested in joining the Project that was born from this thread of glorious ideas, see this post for details!

 

 

 

I think there is some sort of taboo on this subject, but I'm dismissing it because I know quite a few people on this forum can have a healthy conversation on this topic. What I want to discuss isn't what is more impactful or important, nature or nurture, but how both, of varying portions, influenced and affected the Primarchs in their formative years, and how that impacts their respective Legions. The purpose is for us to come to a deeper understanding of the Primarchs, to become acquainted with them in ways Black Library and Forgeworld has not provided.

Often when this sort of topic gets brought up, it tends to lead into a 'what if' discussion. If Guilliman and Angron had been switched, would either of them have been any different? I would like for us to focus on that. Take a Primarch, give him a new homeworld and follow that idea to its conclusion. What do you think would stay the same? What would be different? What would that mean for their Legions, once discovered? I'm not looking for a consensus here, there are no right answers. There can't be, this is just our opinions and imaginations trying to extrapolate deeper meanings. Some changes might be drastic, like any circumstance where it is a different Primarch than Horus found first. The purpose of this is not to explore an alternate heresy or reality within 40k. It is just to discuss possibilities that deepen our understanding of their canon portrayal.

Here is this thread's current list of touched upon Primarchs and Homeworlds.

I - Palatine Jonson - Mundus Planus

II - *record deleted?*

III - Fulgrim Dragonslayer - Medusa

IV - Perturabo - Chemos

V -

VI - Leman Goldenbeard - fleet of unknown origins

VII - Rogal Dorn - Nostromo

VIII - Konrad Dominus - Baal / Nusku - Nocturne / Konrad Phaeron - Colchis

IX - Sanguinius - Colchis

X -

XI - *record deleted?*

XII - Angron - Macragge

XIII - Roboute Barabus - Barbarus

XIV - Mortarion - Olympia

XV - Magnus the Red-Maned - Caliban

XVI - Lupercal - Liberation

XVII - Lorgar Cleftjaw - Fenris

XVIII - Anubis - Prospero

XIX - Lanista Corax - Nuceria

XX - Alpharius/Omegon - Cthonia

Declared for/Incomplete/Just plain mentioned:
Ferrus Manus - Nyceria
Jagad Tai - Inwit

However, nobody should be restricted to that list. Ultimately, I'd like each Primarch to have a discussion of multiple Homeworlds. The thing I want to see is what each of us think is inherent in the Primarch regardless of origins, and how much of it we think is integral to that Primarch. To single some folks out that I know are common lurkers and posters, I'd like to see 1000heathens' take on a Perturabo that has no dictator to overthrow, just a losing battle for survival, like Ferrus Manus dealt with on Medusa. I'd like to see Wade Garrett consider the idea of Lorgar being born on a world that doesn't want or need a saviour king, but has its own set of unique beliefs and creeds that support it, such as on Fenris. I'd like to see Kol Saresk discuss Konrad Curze's landing upon a world where the only crimes perpetrated upon it are those of an alien breed, such as Nocturne. I'd like to see furioso-prime put his bromarch on a world of psychics, when he is not so blatantly sorcerous himself. I'd like to see Kasper_Hawser, a new face but one eager to understand his favored Primarch, to discuss how much of Leman Russ would change if it had been he who landed upon the blood red sands of Nuceria's gladiator rings. There are plenty others I'm forgetting but I hope everyone is willing to join in.

To begin, I'd like to look at Sanguinius landing upon Colchis. On Baal, Sanguinius was more the saviour on Baal, unlike Lorgar the Messiah. On Colchis, Sanguinius would be both. He also has visions of the future and would likely know of the Emperor's potential return. Living on a world of holiness, Sanguinius could likely be seen as an Angel in full religious truth. This is a world that idolizes the Warp and the Chaos Pantheon. His mutation would be a mark of the gods. He'd be paraded around, his darker desires (the origins of the Rage and Thirst) catered to at every corner, rather than being shamefully hidden. Like Lorgar, he would likely inspire a worship of the Emperor. But this would be a Sanguinius who would not think to limit his darker self. He'd be raised on a world that celebrates that sort of thing, which would leave him unprepared for the Imperium, which would not. It is entirely possible that this Sanguinius would fall Traitor, as he would be surrounded by Chaos and its worship, even after inspiring wars of faith when he reveals the coming of a God in Gold. That said, unlike Lorgar I don't see Sanguinius as being as desperate for something to believe in. Sanguinius might follow Lorgar's steps in the beginning, but the Monarchia-parallel would probably be a diverging point between the two. However, I believe his fears stated in Fear to Tread might be more likely to be realized if born on Colchis. Initially, it would be difficult for him to adapt to the Imperium and likely knowledge of his flaws would become much more publicly known.


Edited by Cormac Airt, 18 February 2014 - 10:00 PM.

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#2
Wulfkry

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Ill take a swipe at Lorgar on Fenris.

 

We seem to come to a mild consensus that Lorgar's personality craves something to believe in.  On Fenris there are no gods, and malificarum is stamped out ruthlessly.  I think that Lorgar would have become immersed in anit malificarum beliefs.  Perhaps becoming the ultimate flag waverer of the imperial truth.  He might have come down extremely harsh on psykers in other legions or perhaps pushing that they no longer be recruited or maybe only be allowed if trained as a rune priest/gothii like on Fenris.  I see Lorgar if found on Fenris to be the ultimate anti zealot.

 

Angron on Deliverance is a very interesting idea.  Since in canon he is pretty much the opposite of what happened to Corax.  Without the nails and actually experiences positive prolonged human contact Angron is something entirely different.  I do not see him using the shadows as his weapon hes still charging smash em slash em Angron, but I think he would have stayed loyal and the raven guard would have become an all out shock and assault force.  Angron on delieverance might see a positive destiny for him fulfilled as there are no nails in his head killing/enraging him all the damn time.  Though he is still  a rage machine i believe it would be completely controlled and used as another weapon.

 

Good topic Airt... but uhh shouldnt you be working on the G heresy hasnt been an update in awhile and i need something awesome to read at work golly gee....


Edited by Wulfkry, 12 September 2013 - 09:25 PM.

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#3
KingKurama

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Angron on deliverance. Well I've got a feeling he may have been an angry angel, I feel that it's angrons nature to rage and display bravado and brotherhood. We look at the warhounds and can derive their traits from here.

I feel that he would still be a prisoner like corax but unlike corax with his stealth abilities would have united them into a full fighting force brothers and sisters united with honour and freedom.

Deliverance would still be taken but I feel he would have exterminated the tech guilds completely. He seems to hate slavery and oppression and would have become an honourable tyrant killer. I still feel he would have gone traitor as he said even whilst he was coherent he never wanted to be a slave or fail taking his home world these are big facets that even taking deliverance would make him sort of a mortarion mindset with tyranny

#4
depthcharge12

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I could see Angron as a zealous partisan fighter if on deliverance and when "freeing" other worlds. Maybe more like the ideological American fighter who is there to liberate and promote freedom of act and thought. His "I dont care as long as it gets done attitude" in my perspective is sort of like an isolationist policy.

 

He would liberate a world and release them to free will that would govern themselves under merit and tithe/tax to the imperium. Maybe even a better alternative to what other compliances have been especially since he would really be making them planet-states where they have individual rules but the Imperial word is final.

 

That would actually be amazing, but thats just my first thoughts of it.

 

 

Lion on Cthonia,

maybe the "honorable gangster" maybe more of a john dillinger with less charisma. The family is word and final. It surpasses all other ties.

 

 

Mortarion on Caliban

again too close to what he already is. messiah figure that cleanes the warp beasts from the land.

 

 

Fulgrim on Macragge

pompous statesman with private army like caesar. im very superficial with this one

 

 

Leman Russ on Nuceria

the blood wolf that seeks manflesh idk


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#5
Gree

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Ill take a swipe at Lorgar on Fenris.
 
We seem to come to a mild consensus that Lorgar's personality craves something to believe in.  On Fenris there are no gods, and malificarum is stamped out ruthlessly.

The Space Wolf Codex contains references to the Ecclesiarchy finding issue with ''heathen beliefs'' on Fenris. There may have been no Pantheon of Gods, but there definitely seems to be some sort of mystic beliefs on Fenris.

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#6
Capitano

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Well you said that we could pick another planet...

I would like to do Conrad on Caliban...

...simply put he would start the same way...but I feel that while he would be aloof from how people interact with each other at first, with luther's help learn to interact with people and understand their ways of thought like cruze did with his legion...

As for the painful visions that might be helped by a wild woman/man shaman who understands how the visions work to a degree and maybe help him channel that into a positive outlet to help the people of the planet like the lion did.

The order of knights he joins still gives him the justice he needs to start him on his path but instead of learning control thru fear he would be similar to Robert and the ultramarines with their honour and he would have become one of the greatest primarchs there was and stood with his father against the traitor legions that would attack...

With Luther as his guide he would probably conquer more planets and turn them into productive planets like ultramare...

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#7
Wade Garrett

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Ill take a swipe at Lorgar on Fenris.

We seem to come to a mild consensus that Lorgar's personality craves something to believe in. On Fenris there are no gods, and malificarum is stamped out ruthlessly.

The Space Wolf Codex contains references to the Ecclesiarchy finding issue with ''heathen beliefs'' on Fenris. There may have been no Pantheon of Gods, but there definitely seems to be some sort of mystic beliefs on Fenris.
The Ragnar Blackmane books and the Emperor's Gift mention a god of the dead named Morkai, the namesake for the place where iniates are tested by the Rune Priests and Logan Grimnar's axe.

As to the actual topic...I have some ideas which I will post later.

Edited by Wade Garrett, 12 September 2013 - 11:40 PM.

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#8
KingKurama

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Morkai is one of the 13 wolves of fenris right?

#9
FunkyMonkey

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I don't know how I feel all about Lion on Cthonia.  On the one hand, Cthonian gang culture is huge on the accumulation of power, which I have no doubt Lion will be able to do well in.  However, at the same time, gang culture also fosters gang loyalty, which in some ways, is more compelling than honor-based loyalty, given that in gangs, you don't really have a choice to leave, so once you're in it, you're pretty much in it for life.  I don't really see Lion's somewhat insular personality meshing well with gang loyalty, he just doesn't have that charisma that Horus has and can't build the loyalty that can stand on its own separate from the power feud culture.

 

At the same time, since Cthonia is the closest of all planets, perhaps Lion will be picked up early in life, like how Horus was supposedly found relatively early by the Emperor.  Maybe Lion's personality mismatch with gang loyalty wouldn't have had quite a problem in the first decades when most of the Dark Angels are still Terran, and a problem would form only when greater and greater percentages were drawn from Cthonia.

 

 

And lol, Ferrus Manus not on Medusa wouldn't even have his famous necrodermis hands.  His legion would probably be named something different.

 

I actually think Rowboat Girlyman would do very well on Olympia.  Didn't the IW IA say Perturabo's stepfather tried hard for Perturabo's affection but never got it?  Papa Smurf, Sr. would probably be able to give the ruler that father-son affection and the later rebellion on Olympia may or may not have happened depending on if the ruler was assassinated like the Maccrage consul or otherwise passed his rulership to Roboute before the Emperor came.


Edited by FunkyMonkey, 12 September 2013 - 11:43 PM.


#10
KingKurama

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I've got a good big arguementbis for angron each world. Ill do it after work as I think it will have some good points for thought

#11
Son of Carnelian

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Curze remains crazy, he always will. That's essential to his character. But his time on Nocturne might temper his insanity with the idea that isolation can prevent the worst of his rages. Maybe he acts as a hermit towards the people of Nocturne. He defends them from the orks, as Vulkan did, but then leaves and "goes native," living among the drakes and mastering them in great packs that he uses. His legion would act like Tusken Raiders. Heavy emphasis on mounted, yet slow-moving combat. An intractable advance and a marked aversion to prolonged exposure with civilians. 



#12
Kol Saresk

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There were Orks on Nocturne?

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#13
Wade Garrett

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THE SONS OF BARABUS

 

One year before the Emperor arrived, Roboute killed the Tyrant of Barbus. It was no rash impulse, a wild charge up a mountain screaming about justice and freedom...he simply walked into the chamber where his adoptive father lay sleeping, drew a dagger, and slit the warlord's throat. Like every other decision in the Primarch's life, it was born of coldly logical calculation, ruthlessly applied to all around him. The Tyrant had simply become a liability to the realm his foster son was forging, the sorceries he practiced eroding away at his sanity until his paranoia and delusions led him to begin countermanding the orders Roboute Barabus felt where necessary for the good governance of his kingdom.

 

Up until that final moment, Roboute had been the very image of an obedient son. True, he had persuaded his father to cease the raids upon the cowering villages in the valley's below, but that had been because his latent logistical talents recognized the sniveling wretches as a resource that could be far more used for far more than a moment's diversion. Under his ruthless commands, the people of Barbus were soon free from the terror raids by horrifying armies...provided they spent almost all of their waking hours toiling in the mines and factories young Roboute designed.

 

Thanks to the enormous pollution spewing engines of industry and superior logistical methodology created by Roboute's intellect, his father's armies were soon crushing their rivals beneath the treads of armored vehicles and blasting them to smithereens with chemical explosives, methods he found far more reliable than the black magicks and twisted creatures the other warlords relied upon. When the Emperor arrived, he found a planet of vast furnaces and poison choked manufacturing centers, with a populace crushed into complete submission by the most rigorous and efficient mechanisms a transhuman mind could conceive of.

 

Roboute was more than happy to leave his planet in the hands of his lieutenants and take up a place in his true father's armies, leading his "Sons of Barabus" Legion in a thousand campaigns. Not for them the empty falsehoods of glory, courage, and honor...each campaign was the relentless application of superior manpower and firepower directed by a logistical genius, until enemy resistance was drowned in a rain of shells and an ocean of blood, each victory as inevitable as it was thorough.

 

The pages of the Liber Malum do not provide an exact reason for why Barabus decided to betray yet another father, only the mysterious and disturbing quote "Dignity is the graceful acceptance of the inevitable", believed to have been stated by Roboute just before his Legion openly proclaimed their allegiance to the Plague God Nurgle during the Great Atrocity. Some believe that the Arch Traitor caused his brother to behold a future where Chaos had completely consumed the materium, and that in his despair over the unavoidable of everything he had created, Roboute was easy prey for the Grandfather of Rot.

 

His Legion continues to wage war against mankind even to this day, willing avatars of the dissolution that must overtake everything in the end. Each campaign and raid they launch progresses through the same series of tactical and strategic gambits, as unchanging as the worsening symptoms of a terminal cancer. At times Imperial commanders have made them pay dearly for such  inflexibility, but between the genius of the mind that originally crafted the standard battle plans they follow and the unnatural resilience granted by the Crow God, the ability to predict their actions is rarely the same thing as the ability to prevent or counter them.


Edited by Wade Garrett, 15 September 2013 - 01:17 AM.

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#14
Conn Eremon

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@ Wulfkry: You make it sound like Lorgar and Russ are actually very similar, but I wonder if a Colchisian Russ would break that mold. As for Angron and Deliverance, his Legion would still be the War Hounds, rather than the Raven Guard, but you raise good points.

As far as the Guilliman Heresy, it is on hold. I got some things in the Liber forum I'd like to do and I am still hoping Olisredan will return. But never fear, my interest have not yet waned.

@Jaspcat: I agree that with Angron leading the charge the tech guilds would have been utterly destroyed. I wonder how that would affect his relationship with the Mechanicum. Looking forward to the rest of your stuff.

@Depthcharge12
Give me more than one liners! As for Angron, that is a pretty idealized vision. Could Angron ever be like that, even without Nails?

@Capitano: I am not certain Kurze could ever easily overcome his images, but having someone like Luther involved would really have a positive effect, I am sure.

@Wade Garrett: Looking forward to it.

Cutting it off here, will try to respond to others later.

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#15
depthcharge12

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Wha...wait...nnn-nn-no logistics?

 

This I cannot be party to. I am switching back to 40k. A universe lacking a spirtual liege full of LOGISTIKS is not a universe i want to play my plastic figures in.

 

This is blasphemy. Nay. This is heresy. :P


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#16
Wade Garrett

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Wha...wait...nnn-nn-no logistics?

 

This I cannot be party to. I am switching back to 40k. A universe lacking a spirtual liege full of LOGISTIKS is not a universe i want to play my plastic figures in.

 

This is blasphemy. Nay. This is heresy. tongue.png

 

Post edited to include "logistics", "logistical", and "LOGISTICAL GENIUS!".


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#17
depthcharge12

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@cormac

Angron was the only one i was remotely interested though im sure i could figure some others out.

 

Angron, during the battle against Guilliman, was pretty much my pointer when robby was trying to figure out why he had betrayed the emps. Angron then pretty much dissed bob and said that he was an elitist who lived a posh life and was a leader of men when Angron was a slave who had known nothing else other then the pits.

 

Angrypants then told roboute that his guys always shouted courage and honor when it was miniscule to the amount of courage and honor that he and the other slaves faced during the rebellion against the "high-riders". This echoes betrayal with the Khan's words about how they shouldn't judge angron because they themselves had never had to face what he had.

 

Angron is the sort that stands up for the underdog, the slaves, and the dregs of society (dont even think about his later massacres because he really lost it after Desh'ea and the nails really set in).

 

He wants everyone on equal footing - no lords, no sires - equality. Which he has had to fight for everyday of his life till ascension. He was one of I think 2 primarchs who hadn't conquered their world at the time of the emps arrival. He failed those who he held dear most - those that had gone through the same hardships as he had.

 

 

 

The partisan aspect of which I talk is like maybe the french revolution in spezz (in all serioussness). He backs those who have been cast aside by the haughty nobility class who supress their every move to gain freedom and equality.

 

His revolutions would herald a similiar act of brutal, bloody, and sometimes quick overthrow.

 

As for putting other worlds under the emps banner the only thing I could think of would be that he wants a redistribution of the weath (dont think socialism, think american and french revolution) so that all citizens have a more level playing field to have free will and ability to achieve their personal goals - in the end Perturabo would be an engineer and make marvels for the human race.

 

 

Angron on Deliverance would be the great equalizer and the embodiment of the emperor's free will and social justice that a majority of the imperium lacks. He wouldn't be the judge in a twisted curze way but the jury itself.



Wha...wait...nnn-nn-no logistics?

 

This I cannot be party to. I am switching back to 40k. A universe lacking a spirtual liege full of LOGISTIKS is not a universe i want to play my plastic figures in.

 

This is blasphemy. Nay. This is heresy. tongue.png

 

Post edited to include "logistics", "logistical", and "LOGISTICAL GENIUS!".

 

He outflanked the forum!!!!!

 

 

CREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!


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#18
Gree

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I'd probably say the biggest problem with this idea is that many of the Primarchs were shaped by their homeworlds, with only a few having outstanding quirks that there separate from their homeworld's influences.

Like if Fulgrim landed on Macragge and was found by Konor and had Canon!Guilliman's upbringing, then we most likely would have a white-haired prettyboy Primarch called Roboute Guilliman who might have a few minor differences compared to the canon version.

Or if Guilliman landed on Nuceria and was enslaved, we would probably have an insane berserker called Angron or something like that.

Of course that does not assume one puts stock in the idea that the Primarchs would develop along the same lines regardless of worlds they landed in, that the Emperor created them for specific roles. I.e Guilliman always develops into a logistical genius or Corax always becomes a stealth guy no matter what world he lands on.

Edited by Gree, 13 September 2013 - 02:21 AM.

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#19
KingKurama

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See iirc all the primarchs were like blank slates with the facets installed, each upbringing added and took from the original programming.

But ill extend on it when I write up my hypothesis later sorry to cause a wait

#20
Wade Garrett

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Like if Fulgrim landed on Macragge and was found by Konor and had Canon!Guilliman's upbringing, then we most likely would have a white-haired prettyboy Primarch called Roboute Guilliman who might have a few minor differences compared to the canon version.

Or if Guilliman landed on Nuceria and was enslaved, we would probably have an insane berserker called Angron or something like that.

 

Counterpoint:

 

Going from Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus and the Night Haunter, it seems like at least some of the Primarchs had their names already picked out while they were still in the incubation pods. Which I guess means Roboute on Nuceria would have been the angriest guy with a French name since Jerome Le Banner.


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#21
KingKurama

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Okay so first things first as a rough outline here are what I believe the primarchs were installed with and what the worlds gave them as it currently stands;


Lion el'Jonson - tactician (to do whatever it takes)
Fulgrim the Phoenician - the goal for perfection
Perturabo - diplomacy and philosophy
Jaghatai Khan - the unknown element (wildness)
Leman Russ - fatherly and instinctual
Rogal Dorn - honour
Konrad Curze - order
Sanguinius - soul
Ferrus Manus - the will
Angron - the brotherhood and anger/wrath
Roboute Guilliman - the brain
Mortarion - endurance
Magnus the Red - pshycic potential
Horus Lupercal - the vision
Lorgar Aurelian - the faith
Vulkan - the humble and humane
Corvus Corax - the concise
Alpharius Omegon - the secrecy

Fleet of unknown origins- ehh?
Chogoris - open plains adding freedom and the will to dream
Prospero - the acceptance of warpcraft and pursuit of knowledge
Macragge - Romanian empire bringing in beauracracy and honour
Baal - a declining population that bring steadfastness and hope for a better future
Barbarus - tyrannical domain of necrons cents and suffering
Nocturne - a testing place of endurance will and a hardy people that try protect each other
Olympia - a society of philosophers poets and warriors
Inwit - a cold hard dominating place that needs a will of stone to handle
Caliban - feudal knightly yet dark
Colchis - religious dominance zealotry and martyrdom
Chemos - a struggling people that hold dear what pleasure can be taken from life
Nostramo - lawless unjust society of darkness
Deliverance - slavery and dominance of its people's
Fenris - extreme planet of extremely strong and disillusioned people
Medusa - warring clans of rogues and wonderers
Cthonia - gangsta underground societies and dealings
Nuceria - slavery and cruel tormentors.

Does everyone agree, I just want people to be able to see where the next part of my arguementbis comes from

Edited by Jaspcat, 13 September 2013 - 02:59 AM.


#22
Conn Eremon

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It's superficial of course, but yeah you got the gist of it.

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Bellum Omnium Contra Omnes


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#23
KingKurama

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Alright now from here ill do some expanding and referencing and produce a case by case review if each primarchs.

Just a hint that ill release before i publish my hypothisis Angron can be affected by the world but other than a couple of select worlds will he stay a loyalist.






So expect a comprehensive review as I've studied this a fair bit.

@cormac- I tried to keep it superficial just to make sure we don't have any hotheads close this down, I want this to be an intellectual debate as stated not a "your a troll" or "I don't agree so shut up" thread as others previously have turned into :D

#24
Kol Saresk

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I'd say Curze is more of a peacekeeper than a paragon of justice. Maybe trade it for order? I know it don't seem like much but in Nazi Germany, order was commonplace, justice was not.

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#25
KingKurama

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Yeah your right kol just edited it to order now ill get to work :)