[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[strawberry fist]

What about a second contemptor mortis with twin lascannon? Are laser rapier destroyers not good?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Twin Las contemptor mortis is bad, there's a very large gap of efficacy between 9th edition version of units and 30k versions. Two twin-linked lascannons at bs5 on average take off .8 hull points from a jinking/in cover landspeeder. Dual kheres does 2.5 hull points in comparison.

 

Laser destroyers suffer from a similar issue of one shot. You get to roll two dice and pick the highest for armour pen, but even off a pen you only have a 17% chance of killing.

 

You want medium-high strength with good rate of fire. Shatter rounds out of a quad launcher gives 4 str 8 shots with sunder. Three grav rapiers kill a vehicle per volley. A fire raptor gets 7 twinlinked bs5 str 6 shots, 4 twinlinked bs 5 str 7 shots per side and 4 single use bs 5 str 8 shots. Its 230 points, compared to the las-mortis' 185. It's not even a contest

[strawberry fist]

So the Kheres contemptor would be good at killing infantry and possibly rhino's. I've just looked up the rules for haywire and it looks lethal, I can see how a squad of 3 can take down a vehicle in one turn! If there all selected within one force org slot can they shoot at different targets or are they all forced to shoot at the same target? 

 

Is there a good/ effective combi-weapon to put on the Terminators i'm thinking either plasma or melta, also would cataphractti or tartarus armour be best?

 

For the Fire Raptor can it shoot all of its guns in one go (assuming they can all target something) or can it only fire 4 weapons a turn,I can't remember kinda rusty on 30k.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The general rule for 30k is that everything in one unit has to shoot at the same target. A few specific rules get around this, namely split fire and power of the machine spirit. In the case of rapiers, 3 of them in one unit have to fire at the same target; 3 units of one can select units individually but you're now down to 1 elite slot.

 

The fire raptor has a rule that allows each side-turret to target a different target from the rest of the shots, in addition to power of the machine spirit. Those two rules also allow the side-turret to not count towards the maximum number of weapons and the machine spirit'd weapon to be fired in addition to the normal cap of 4, allowing the fire raptor to shoot every weapon at once and being able to select 4 different targets. However, it's very important to remember that vehicle fire arcs exist in 30k, with the arc being limited to the physical traverse, or in the case of hull mounted (twin avengers and rockets for the raptor) 22.5 degrees left, right, up and down. The raptor will never, ever shoot all of its weapons at the same target, best case is the rockets and avenger.

[Aztek]

Anyone ever have any success with a squad of 10 FA option Jet bikes? Hoping the new type of Jetbike Squad is a melee oriented squad.

[strawberry fist]

The general rule for 30k is that everything in one unit has to shoot at the same target. A few specific rules get around this, namely split fire and power of the machine spirit. In the case of rapiers, 3 of them in one unit have to fire at the same target; 3 units of one can select units individually but you're now down to 1 elite slot.

 

The fire raptor has a rule that allows each side-turret to target a different target from the rest of the shots, in addition to power of the machine spirit. Those two rules also allow the side-turret to not count towards the maximum number of weapons and the machine spirit'd weapon to be fired in addition to the normal cap of 4, allowing the fire raptor to shoot every weapon at once and being able to select 4 different targets. However, it's very important to remember that vehicle fire arcs exist in 30k, with the arc being limited to the physical traverse, or in the case of hull mounted (twin avengers and rockets for the raptor) 22.5 degrees left, right, up and down. The raptor will never, ever shoot all of its weapons at the same target, best case is the rockets and avenger.

Thanks for the advice. I suppose if it takes 3 grav rapiers to take down a tank then it’s good it goes in 1 slot! I’ll have a play around with the list and see if I can squeeze the fire raptor in.

[strawberry fist]

Managed to tweek the 2000 point list.

HQ

Sevatar

 

Elites

Contemptor mortis- kheres x2

Rapier battery x3 - graviton cannon

Terminators - chainglaive, chainfist x4 combi plasma x5 (Cataphracti)

 

Troops

Terror Squad x9 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod (sevatar to be attached)

Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

 

Heavy

Fire raptor - armoured ceramite, hellstrike missiles, reaper auto cannon battery

[The Scorpion]

For your list as-is to 2000? Fire raptor or javelins; they'll both get you a great amount of medium-anti tank weapons. The fire raptor is better against Troops, can engage more targets at once and is more survivable, but the javelins are better at killing tanks and 2+ armour.

 

What about Xiphon interceptors? They clock in at around the same points as a Dreadnought or min-sized Terminator squad.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I like xiphons and theyre a good supplemental form of anti tank on top of your limited heavy support. But look at its point cost and then look at the fire raptor's. The fire raptor and javelin speeders are excellent units because of their points and are perfect building blocks for larger lists.

[strawberry fist]

What about a sicaran Arcus with skyspear warheads instead of the fire raptor?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pretty terrible tbh. The sicaran arcus has a lot of damage potential, but the problem on the whole is that it's a direct fire weapon that also makes you stay still to get full efficacy on a very fast chassis. You pay a lot of points for an immobile fast vehicle, can't split fire and need to leave it exposed to get full effect.

[strawberry fist]

How about a legion jetbike slayer support squadron, 5 bikes equipped with  multi-melta. They'll get a cover bonus from the legion trait if I end up going second and toughness 5 to stay alive, when they get to move they'll move quite quickly and hopefully be in melta range aand hopefully 5 multi-meltas should kill one tank and the 3 gaviton cannons should deal with a second. Arguably could drop the 5th bike and make one a sgt and give him a melta bomb and a chainglaive, as if they get into combat then they could hopefully out number an apponents squad and get the +1 to hit and wound.

[Gorgoff]

Why again are you obsessed with killing tanks?

[strawberry fist]

Why again are you obsessed with killing tanks?

Just feel that my list list is missing/ lacking that element. I feel I have a good amount of anti-infantry with the Terror Squads Contemptor and Terminators, just curious to know if it would be a good strategy from more experienced Night Lord players.

[The Scorpion]

I like xiphons and theyre a good supplemental form of anti tank on top of your limited heavy support. But look at its point cost and then look at the fire raptor's. The fire raptor and javelin speeders are excellent units because of their points and are perfect building blocks for larger lists.

 

True, but in this particular case, the single Heavy Support slot is everything. Taking the Xiphon allows you you to take something else (including a Fire Raptor) on top of it.

[Slips]

At that point why not load up for an Equivalent amount of points in Javelins? You get 3 per slot instead of the 1 of the Xiphon and can pump out 5 S8 shots on arrival per javelin.

 

If you want it mainly for the style points then go for it anyways.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya the skyslayers aren't great as your one and only heavy support slot. You need an actual TAC threat for 2000 and things that are either too focussed in their role, or provide too little results for their investment aren't that desirable.

 

And as both I and slips have mentioned, the points ratios on the javelins are just, well, extravagantly low, while xiphon could only ever be called fair. The fire raptor is in a very similar spot in the heavy support slot; theres no reason it should be as cheap as it is. It's simply one of the best heavy support options in the game, the only reason you don't see multiples in a list is because they're such a pain to put together.

[Gorgoff]

the only reason you don't see multiples in a list is because they're such a pain to put together.

That's EXACTLY why I still don't have one yet.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

 

the only reason you don't see multiples in a list is because they're such a pain to put together.

That's EXACTLY why I still don't have one yet.

That's EXACTLY why I have yet to assemble mine.

 

Sky slayers are far from bad, but they have a direct competitor in form of Attack Bikes. I dare say that usually you should take bikes instead:

 

+ Bikes are found in less crowded/valuable slot (especially when your group puts a ban on javelins or your terror assault limits HS choices)

 

+ don't have to be a 3man squad

 

+ can take melta bombs (honestly not sure if slayers can)

 

+ 5 pts cheaper (at least i remember so)

 

+ slightly better firepower that one odd turn when you shoot at infantry

 

+ better base cc, more attacks

 

- bikes,  not jetbikes

 

-/? cant take sarge with power weapon or glaive (I have never done it anyway so for me it's negligible)

 

Depending on your meta attack bikes can be also more or less resiliant than jetbikes. 1W 2+ is strictly better than 2W 3+ only against Ap3 and/or S10/Instant death - those often tend to be Ap2 anyway. I rarely see a lot of ap3 aside from a stray missile or sword (unless it's mechanicum) - I'd rather have better protection against ubiquitous plasma, melta or other strong weapons or fists and axes, against which Attack Bikes are 'twice' as durable.

[The Scorpion]

Why again are you obsessed with killing tanks?

Because all of the VIIIth legion rules are geared towards killing infantry, and infantry-centric listbuilding. Our dude needs firepower.

[strawberry fist]

Thanks for all the help.

Managed to squeeze 4 javalin speeders in with twin linked lascannons.  To move it to 3000p add in Konrad, Assault marines (sgt. chainglaive, combat shield and artificer armour (to go with Konrad), Leviathan (claw and storm cannon) and finally an apothecary to go with Konrad (jump pack, chainglaive) takes the list to 2993.

 

HQ
Sevatar

Elites
Contemptor mortis- kheres x2
Rapier battery x3 - graviton cannon
Terminators - chainglaive, chainfist x4 combi plasma x5 (Cataphracti)

Troops
Terror Squad x9 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod (sevatar to be attached)
Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod
Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

Fast Attack

Javalin attack speeder - heavy bolter, Twin linked Lascannon X2

Javalin attack speeder - heavy bolter, Twin linked Lascannon X2

[Slips]

Thanks for all the help.

Managed to squeeze 4 javalin speeders in with twin linked lascannons.  To move it to 3000p add in Konrad, Assault marines (sgt. chainglaive, combat shield and artificer armour (to go with Konrad), Leviathan (claw and storm cannon) and finally an apothecary to go with Konrad (jump pack, chainglaive) takes the list to 2993.

 

HQ

Sevatar

 

Elites

Contemptor mortis- kheres x2

Rapier battery x3 - graviton cannon

Terminators - chainglaive, chainfist x4 combi plasma x5 (Cataphracti)

 

Troops

Terror Squad x9 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod (sevatar to be attached)

Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

 

Fast Attack

Javalin attack speeder - heavy bolter, Twin linked Lascannon X2

Javalin attack speeder - heavy bolter, Twin linked Lascannon X2

It might be more worthwhile to drop the lascannons and swap the HB for Multimeltas and grab 2 HK Missiles for the 5 S8 Shots on arrival instead of a HB that cant hurt AV and 2 Lascannon Shots; that is, if points allow.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Slips

[strawberry fist]

 

Thanks for all the help.

Managed to squeeze 4 javalin speeders in with twin linked lascannons.  To move it to 3000p add in Konrad, Assault marines (sgt. chainglaive, combat shield and artificer armour (to go with Konrad), Leviathan (claw and storm cannon) and finally an apothecary to go with Konrad (jump pack, chainglaive) takes the list to 2993.

 

HQ

Sevatar

 

Elites

Contemptor mortis- kheres x2

Rapier battery x3 - graviton cannon

Terminators - chainglaive, chainfist x4 combi plasma x5 (Cataphracti)

 

Troops

Terror Squad x9 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod (sevatar to be attached)

Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

Terror Squad x10 - Chainglaive + artificer armour, 9 volkite cavalier, drop pod

 

Fast Attack

Javalin attack speeder - heavy bolter, Twin linked Lascannon X2

Javalin attack speeder - heavy bolter, Twin linked Lascannon X2

It might be more worthwhile to drop the lascannons and swap the HB for Multimeltas and grab 2 HK Missiles for the 5 S8 Shots on arrival instead of a HB that cant hurt AV and 2 Lascannon Shots; that is, if points allow.

 

Would the lascannons not be more likely to pop a tank because of the higher strength and ap? Although if i revert the lascannons to the cyclone missile launcher and add the multi-melta that would be 3 str 8 Ap3 shots per speeder, would that be more of a threat?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea this isn't the 8th ed system where everything can hurt any target and you can split fire per weapon. Your units need to be tailored to not be wasting half their output; heavy bolter and lascannon is not a good combination. The loadout that makes javelins so good is the multimelta+launcher+hunter killers. Your role is unambiguous, you have 3 str 8 shots a turn normally and can up it to 5, and it's dirt cheap at 75 per.

 

The leviathan is also sporting a loadout that doesn't really make the most of things. The storm cannon is easily the worst of its ranged weapons in 30k and the claw is only really the right choice against daemon lists. The missing phosphex especially hurts it.

[strawberry fist]

What would you recomend for the leviathan?