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Iron Hands Tactics


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#1926
Charlo

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So it depends on how rules vs fluff you want to go?

 

To me, Mk IV is the most advanced form of Astartes armour in the Heresy and so is used by units that are more all-rounders. Mk VI is newer but has specialised systems meant for infiltration etc and interestingly MkIII was re-adopted by many legionnaires as the front plating is more resistant to Bolter Fire, an unexpected side use when fighting other Astartes.

 

Based on this, I say you go for a variation on Imren's idea - a Flamer Support Squad (as opposed to heavy flamer) and also give them a Bolt Pistol + CCW (which you can do!)

 

This way you're getting extra attacks, can sprinkle in the chainsaw look you desire and use the MkIV in a meaningful way!


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#1927
TheDreadfulSagittary

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Greetings!

 

What is your opinion about Sabre tanks in Head of the Gorgon? I'm thinking on adding one or a pair with neutron blasters to my army to finish my list and collection. Currently I didn't have that many tanks (a Spartan, a Sicaran BT and a couple of Rhinos for troop transport), and I would like to add some armoured might to my army. They seem like a nice choice for the single FA unit, what is with HotG allowed.

 

Other question: I have a Cataphractii Terminator unit from the Calth box. Only 5 strong, armed with mixed PF and CF-s. Will they be enough? I have a Tartaros unit too, mostly with PF-s, but initially I thought on running them with my Sons of Horus. Additionally: do I need the Gorgons from FW or can I live without them? My army consists mostly tacs, a big blog of breachers and some support marines with volkites.


I used to be a regular Space Marine, just like you. - but then I took the Horus Heresy in the knee...


#1928
Argel Tal

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The issue with the sabre is that it fails to compete with the javelin, its only advantage is the 3HP instead of 2 but apart from that the javelin seems better/cheaper/more mobile/better firepower... 

I think the only options that seem ok are the autocanon + MM or bare bone with laser apart from that they will be too expensive for what they bring. 

or you can even be a douchebag and take jetbikes that are insane effective as IH with the almost T6... 

Imo run the cataphractii as a shooty unit especially as IH you get the better T from range. We are not better in mele than a classic vanilla legion so avoid this unless you are sure to win. Gorgon are quite good thanks to the fnp/grav gun but apart from that they are quite similar from the standard terminator, they are not auto include but remain a good all rounder unit for a reasonable price ! 



#1929
xxunphasedxx

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Greetings!

What is your opinion about Sabre tanks in Head of the Gorgon? I'm thinking on adding one or a pair with neutron blasters to my army to finish my list and collection. Currently I didn't have that many tanks (a Spartan, a Sicaran BT and a couple of Rhinos for troop transport), and I would like to add some armoured might to my army. They seem like a nice choice for the single FA unit, what is with HotG allowed.

Other question: I have a Cataphractii Terminator unit from the Calth box. Only 5 strong, armed with mixed PF and CF-s. Will they be enough? I have a Tartaros unit too, mostly with PF-s, but initially I thought on running them with my Sons of Horus. Additionally: do I need the Gorgons from FW or can I live without them? My army consists mostly tacs, a big blog of breachers and some support marines with volkites.

While I don’t disagree that we aren’t a melee legion. I can say confidently we can have the staying power to outlast other more offensive legions. And coupled with the hatred that the the “company of bitter iron” provides we can really take it to the traitors in CQB. I find the fact we are generally better at shooting to be a incentive for EVERYTHING to try and engage our legionnaires in combat, so I always try and be ready for when that happens, taking stuff that keeps my squads competitive in any role.

There aren’t a ton of ways to get hatred on terminators in the setting besides chaplains or being world eaters (probably missing some but my point is that it’s rare). So there is a upside there, also the cyber familiar makes any cataphractii Sargent (3++) with a power first a scary prospect for any preator or t4 character, my sarge has killed a dozen enemy preators in challenges just by tanking the hits and swinging back, And with hatred, you have a decent chance of finishing the fight round 1.

Also last page people talked about the fact Immortals arent great in melee, while I again, don’t disagree, a cheap breaching charge with hatred can’t be ignored, I have wiped out entire squads of sehkmet with these (but I know that one was just dice). Can be very good depending on the situation. Plus a 2+, 4++, 5+++ character with thunder hammer is again pretty scary, especially if he gets to swing with a one use, rerolling to hit, str8 breaching charge at initiative 4. Your standard breachers can achieve this as well.

From the sounds of your army composition being mostly infantry, I personally feel the rite that benefits you most would be the Company Of Bitter Iron. Once you get more armour you can switch back to the head of the gorgon. I personally hardly use the HOTG any more, preferring the closer range man fighting of the COBI.

On the topic of sabres, I find them alright, the laser can be good but the fast attack slot has better in the catagory I find. Lightnings or xiphons for anti armour and air superiority is good or seekers with combi plas for eating units is a great option as well. But I am a big fan of rule of cool and those baby sicarans are slick, so if you want it, go for it 👍🏻.

Hope this helps somewhat and good luck brother.

Edited by xxunphasedxx, 29 February 2020 - 07:51 AM.

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#1930
TheDreadfulSagittary

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The issue with the sabre is that it fails to compete with the javelin, its only advantage is the 3HP instead of 2 but apart from that the javelin seems better/cheaper/more mobile/better firepower... 

I think the only options that seem ok are the autocanon + MM or bare bone with laser apart from that they will be too expensive for what they bring. 

or you can even be a douchebag and take jetbikes that are insane effective as IH with the almost T6... 

Imo run the cataphractii as a shooty unit especially as IH you get the better T from range. We are not better in mele than a classic vanilla legion so avoid this unless you are sure to win. Gorgon are quite good thanks to the fnp/grav gun but apart from that they are quite similar from the standard terminator, they are not auto include but remain a good all rounder unit for a reasonable price ! 

 

Thank you for your suggestion, but I like the tanks more, than speeders. I never used any of them, because I dislike the concept and aesthetics, and for me that always goes before competitiveness. But as FW-tech is expensive as hell I would like to gather some informations, on should I buy anything, or go with what I already have. 

 

 

While I don’t disagree that we aren’t a melee legion. I can say confidently we can have the staying power to outlast other more offensive legions. And coupled with the hatred that the the “company of bitter iron” provides we can really take it to the traitors in CQB. I find the fact we are generally better at shooting to be a incentive for EVERYTHING to try and engage our legionnaires in combat, so I always try and be ready for when that happens, taking stuff that keeps my squads competitive in any role.

There aren’t a ton of ways to get hatred on terminators in the setting besides chaplains or being world eaters (probably missing some but my point is that it’s rare). So there is a upside there, also the cyber familiar makes any cataphractii Sargent (3++) with a power first a scary prospect for any preator or t4 character, my sarge has killed a dozen enemy preators in challenges just by tanking the hits and swinging back, And with hatred, you have a decent chance of finishing the fight round 1.

Also last page people talked about the fact Immortals arent great in melee, while I again, don’t disagree, a cheap breaching charge with hatred can’t be ignored, I have wiped out entire squads of sehkmet with these (but I know that one was just dice). Can be very good depending on the situation. Plus a 2+, 4++, 5+++ character with thunder hammer is again pretty scary, especially if he gets to swing with a one use, rerolling to hit, str8 breaching charge at initiative 4. Your standard breachers can achieve this as well.

From the sounds of your army composition being mostly infantry, I personally feel the rite that benefits you most would be the Company Of Bitter Iron. Once you get more armour you can switch back to the head of the gorgon. I personally hardly use the HOTG any more, preferring the closer range man fighting of the COBI.

On the topic of sabres, I find them alright, the laser can be good but the fast attack slot has better in the catagory I find. Lightnings or xiphons for anti armour and air superiority is good or seekers with combi plas for eating units is a great option as well. But I am a big fan of rule of cool and those baby sicarans are slick, so if you want it, go for it .

Hope this helps somewhat and good luck brother.

 

 

I never looked into the CoBI, because as I saw that most lists are based on Immortals. Although I absolutely love them, and I like the miniatures (I use the Immortals for Breachers) I cannot afford any more unit of them. Financially and mentally (having the same 5 poses around is even in a 20 man unit really conspicuous + I had some bad experience with the last 5 I built...). But if it could be run potentially with regular marines and Breachers, than I might look after the concept of it. And I could always run HotG when I would like to use Ferrus himself...

 

Right now I have 5 Catapractii, 30 Tac Marines, 10 Support Marines (with Volkite), 20 Breachers (with meltas), one CCW Contemptor, a Sicaran BT, a Spartan a Leviathan, 2-3 Rhinos and Ferrus himself. I have that undecided Tartaros unit too, so yes, my army is mostly Infantry based. I would like to add some more tanks, and that's why I'm looking after Sabres. They aren't that cheap (at least from a monetary perspective), but they could fill up that FA choice. Or I could go with 2 Vindicators. I'm thinking on getting a plastic one, but right now I have so many other projects, that I cannot afford everything...

That's why I'm asking after the Gorgons too. If I can live without them, I might pass on that kit.


I used to be a regular Space Marine, just like you. - but then I took the Horus Heresy in the knee...


#1931
Cadmus Tyro

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@thedreadfulsagittary

A couple of points regarding your last post. The CoBI RoW does not insist that you have to take immortals as compulsory troops, it allows them to be taken. So, theoretically, you don’t need any more breachers/immortals, just use the 20 you already have as one troops choice (put them in a Spartan with a decent CC character) and a tactical squad in a rhino as your second compulsory unit.

With regard to Gorgons, for me, they are a must from a model perspective, but tactically, they are in an odd place. They are well costed for the gear you get, but the their defensive FNP bonus will be lost vs other terminators and dreadnoughts. I tend to kit mine with chainfists and grav, to hunt vehicles/dreads etc. Tactically, you would do just as well with a cataphractii squad, you could just get a Phobos landraider and run them with your immortals.

Vindicators with Power of the machine spirit arriving on the flanks (threat range 36”) makes most opponents fearful, I would take them over the sabre tanks any day. My only issue with this tactic has been reserve rolls, so consider something that can alter this (proteus or cheap rhino command tank).

Finally, we have the best Sicarans out there, because we can take Orth.....

Cadmus
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#1932
FinkleLord

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Hello all,

 

I once again started 30K (for the 3rd time?) and still going with IH. I've done some reading and play tested a few games against my friend who plays Mechanicum. As of now we are proxy 90% of lists until we find out what we really want. 

 

The games I played I've been trying to use Immortals, but they never survive long enough. Well most of my army doesn't survive against his lists. We typically play around 1500-1750 to get the general feel of 7th ed again. I am enjoying Company of Bitter Iron, but I feel like I need to run more tanks over bodies. Though everything I've read says that IH bodies are great, but I can't get them to work. Most bat reps I see use minimal bodies and Veterans which isn't a route I wanna go. 

 

My overall goal is something that focuses on Immortals with tanks backing them up.

 

My lists typically look like:

 

Praetor

20x Immortals

2x Tacticals in Rhinos

Contemtpor Kheres 

Dereado 

Leviathan 

And random support tanks that I've been testing out (Sicarian so far the best)

 

His lists are typically

Arch-Magos? 

Thralls or Thallax

Castalax with Darkfire 

Venator x2

Thanator x2

 

Should I give up on my dream of Immortals? I love their models and they are the real unit that manages to live through all his shooting and AP. They just never have a good target to shoot. I have done the Legion Support Squad with plasma in a Rhino outflanking but they are really a one hit wonder. 

 

I would like to get a good base list down and "buy" them when the time comes so any help or suggestions are welcome! 



#1933
Cadmus Tyro

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Hello all,

I once again started 30K (for the 3rd time?) and still going with IH. I've done some reading and play tested a few games against my friend who plays Mechanicum. As of now we are proxy 90% of lists until we find out what we really want.

The games I played I've been trying to use Immortals, but they never survive long enough. Well most of my army doesn't survive against his lists. We typically play around 1500-1750 to get the general feel of 7th ed again. I am enjoying Company of Bitter Iron, but I feel like I need to run more tanks over bodies. Though everything I've read says that IH bodies are great, but I can't get them to work. Most bat reps I see use minimal bodies and Veterans which isn't a route I wanna go.

My overall goal is something that focuses on Immortals with tanks backing them up.

My lists typically look like:

Praetor
20x Immortals
2x Tacticals in Rhinos
Contemtpor Kheres
Dereado
Leviathan
And random support tanks that I've been testing out (Sicarian so far the best)

His lists are typically
Arch-Magos?
Thralls or Thallax
Castalax with Darkfire
Venator x2
Thanator x2

Should I give up on my dream of Immortals? I love their models and they are the real unit that manages to live through all his shooting and AP. They just never have a good target to shoot. I have done the Legion Support Squad with plasma in a Rhino outflanking but they are really a one hit wonder.

I would like to get a good base list down and "buy" them when the time comes so any help or suggestions are welcome!


For a start, mechanicum are a tough opponent, so that is going to skew your perception of what works and what does not.

Personally, I would persevere with the immortals, in my experience, small changes to lists or tactics is all that’s needed. I would suggest delivering your immortals in a Spartan with a nasty HQ unit. Autek Mor is the ideal choice as he gives them preferred enemy. Another, cheaper option is a different close combat orientated HQ in cataphractii with cyber familiar and a chainfist (this gives you access to 3++). However, in this set up, your immortals need volkite chargers (can assault after use).

Consider a pod for the leviathan, they are brutal when dropping in and will distract the enemy as they will have to deal with the threat - optimum load out vs mechanicum is storm cannon and claw.

There are plenty of other units you could add to help out, but I’ll leave that for you to decide upon!

Cadmus
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Alpha legion and Iron hands work in progress:

http://www.bolterand...legion-wip-log/


Blackshield/World eaters log:

http://www.bolterand...omega-complete/

#1934
FinkleLord

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Hello all,

I once again started 30K (for the 3rd time?) and still going with IH. I've done some reading and play tested a few games against my friend who plays Mechanicum. As of now we are proxy 90% of lists until we find out what we really want.

The games I played I've been trying to use Immortals, but they never survive long enough. Well most of my army doesn't survive against his lists. We typically play around 1500-1750 to get the general feel of 7th ed again. I am enjoying Company of Bitter Iron, but I feel like I need to run more tanks over bodies. Though everything I've read says that IH bodies are great, but I can't get them to work. Most bat reps I see use minimal bodies and Veterans which isn't a route I wanna go.

My overall goal is something that focuses on Immortals with tanks backing them up.

My lists typically look like:

Praetor
20x Immortals
2x Tacticals in Rhinos
Contemtpor Kheres
Dereado
Leviathan
And random support tanks that I've been testing out (Sicarian so far the best)

His lists are typically
Arch-Magos?
Thralls or Thallax
Castalax with Darkfire
Venator x2
Thanator x2

Should I give up on my dream of Immortals? I love their models and they are the real unit that manages to live through all his shooting and AP. They just never have a good target to shoot. I have done the Legion Support Squad with plasma in a Rhino outflanking but they are really a one hit wonder.

I would like to get a good base list down and "buy" them when the time comes so any help or suggestions are welcome!


For a start, mechanicum are a tough opponent, so that is going to skew your perception of what works and what does not.

Personally, I would persevere with the immortals, in my experience, small changes to lists or tactics is all that’s needed. I would suggest delivering your immortals in a Spartan with a nasty HQ unit. Autek Mor is the ideal choice as he gives them preferred enemy. Another, cheaper option is a different close combat orientated HQ in cataphractii with cyber familiar and a chainfist (this gives you access to 3++). However, in this set up, your immortals need volkite chargers (can assault after use).

Consider a pod for the leviathan, they are brutal when dropping in and will distract the enemy as they will have to deal with the threat - optimum load out vs mechanicum is storm cannon and claw.

There are plenty of other units you could add to help out, but I’ll leave that for you to decide upon!

Cadmus

 

 

I learned quick that it will be an uphill battle against them, but I like the challenge it brings. Sadly he will be my only opponent since no one plays 30K in my area and I think the nearest group is several hours away. 

 

I've tried two 10 man Immortals with Volkite Chargers in Proteus' before and it worked well, but I am always stuck with my HQ in the open with no one to go with. I'll try a Spartan this weekend. We decided to test a 2500 game so I'll throw some lists up later. 

 

When I did use the Leviathan it was Claw and Storm Cannon and boy it ripped through his lines. Just one game he got immobilized T2 and just ended up shooting thralls haha. 

 

The big thing I am enjoying about 30K is there are a ton of options and units to choose from. I am very interested in the Sabres and Arquitor Bombard simply because of their looks so I am going to give them a shot too! 

 

Thanks for the advice! 



#1935
The Scorpion

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Vindicators with PotMS are better than Sabres for outflanking? Even though the vindicators get 2/3 laser destroyer shots if they don't move?

I was of the idea that vindicators should try and remain as still as possible.

#1936
Cadmus Tyro

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Vindicators with PotMS are better than Sabres for outflanking? Even though the vindicators get 2/3 laser destroyer shots if they don't move?
I was of the idea that vindicators should try and remain as still as possible.


Who said anything about outflanking laser destroyer vindicators? Yes they should remain stationary, however, flanking a demolisher cannon or two is a fairly good option. PotMS has no impact on laser destroyer vindicators.

Cadmus
Alpha legion and Iron hands work in progress:

http://www.bolterand...legion-wip-log/


Blackshield/World eaters log:

http://www.bolterand...omega-complete/

#1937
FinkleLord

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Finkle back again. After a couple weeks of list testing and some solid defeats I've ran into a couple of questions I thought I would toss on here.

 

*keep in mind my only opponent as of now is Mechanicum* 

 

1. As I like running Rites I need a Praetor though I am having trouble trying to figure out what else he should do game play wise. I feel like he is melee oriented, but he normally never survives past a turn outside his landraider (Cataphractii, Familiar, all the bells and whistles).

 

2. I found out that outriders can take plasma guns. How good are they in lists? I tried using them as a flanking unit to take on tanks or large threats. 

 

3. Is artillery like the Medusa fluffy for us? I love the model but I'm trying to be fluffy and narrative when I finally finish this army. 

 

4. Is sticking every unit I have possible in Land Raiders viable? I'm trying my best to mitigate all my friends haywire and high strength shooting.  



#1938
Gorgoff

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1. Nah, Delegatus can make RoW happen, too.
2. Against Mechanicum? Too expansive I'd say.
3. Every legion had every tank at their disposal, there it is indeed a fluffy addition to your army.
4. Against Mechanicum they're cannonfodder.
Bring back Psycho Dad!
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#1939
FinkleLord

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I feel like any route I go it will be a up hill battle for me. The most success I had is spamming as much invuls as I could just to survive a couple of turns. And oddly enough my MVPs have always been Immortals. They soak up so much damage and they are a pain to move off the board. 

 

I'll have to go back to the drawing board again! 



#1940
Stix

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If you really want to use praetor you can try to equip him with PA and Iron halo. Same protection as Cataphractii but more mobility which can be more useful if you run him with gorgons or other non-Cataphractii unit. Although Cataphractii looks cool as heck! :D

#1941
okonomiyakimarine

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from time to time I come back to the tenth, i like the aesthetics, i have quite a few bits sitting around etc. but I never was too happy with the lists i come up with: they are limited model and tactics wise (CoBI), are based on spartans (and/or Gorgon), both models that are not among my favorites or just a bit glad really (my recently started topic on iron hands tanks, in the army list forum). Mostly i'm just toying with ideas and collect stuff, a project dead not even underway?

 

now, I think here is something that brings together everything that (imo) is cool about the tenth (except dreads and mechanicum, i have space for those somewhere else). Without further ado here is the idea:

 

Tanks all flanks (As above so below)

 

RoW: HotG

Tanks: Falchion (i happen to have one and i think the iron hand are a great fit), Venator and regular Sicaran, both bring a certain redundancy, but are more versatile than vindicators that just need to stand somewhere and hence might be better, if outflanked. Just a bunch of heavy tanks the look great and could shot anything. 

Troops: two Tacticals in Rhinos, no surprise here, and Plasma Support in a Proteus with scouting upgrade to potentially put pressure on early one.

Elites: Gorgons in an Anvillus and Immortals in a Terrax Assault Drill.  Apothecary for the Plasma Support.

HQ: Delegatus or Praetor that goes with the Immortals. Orth sure is a nice addition, but i am unsure where to put him

 

The idea is to start the tanks on the field, where they bring some fire saturation and depending on opponent outflank and hopefully clean the table's center. Everybody's hope when going HotG, I guess. I am quite content (at the moment) about the delivery for Gorgons and immortals and delighted I found an interesting way to put the HQ somewhere. they are the alpha strike so to speak, disrupt, kill and block lanes. Yet, I do miss Anti-Air. The Arcus I find hideous in comparison to the regular Sicaran. With the Terrax though there is no slot for a Lightning or Xiphon. A dual-Kheres dread would be a 'cheap' addition, but I'd have to make cuts somewhere. 

 

Any ideas to make this list more rounded out? 


Edited by okonomiyakimarine, 01 May 2020 - 04:28 PM.


#1942
The Scorpion

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In Massacre it states that the Iron Hands were "able to widely produce and maintain large stockpiles of grav-weapons, conversion-beamer and laser-destroyer systems, and other arcane and esoteric machineries of death" biggrin.png
What do you think about the tabletop potential of such units? Here are my thoughts, feel free to give some imput.

Graviton-weapons: can be taken in contemptors, leviathans, and arquitor bombards. The choice unique to the Iron Xth is the Graviton support squad, and I've heard it's somewhat underwhelming.

Conversion Beamers: three platforms...
- Contemptor, surprisingly what is possibly the better choice, it can hang around in the edge of your DZ and go on the offense when the ennemy threatens the backline units.
- Predator, not very good with the HotG RoW, since outflanking messes with it's firing calibration. It looks gorgeous on a black and silver tank though.
- Techmarine/Forge Lord, useful for a dude in repair duty, but it's a pain in the ass to model it without that Astral Claws techmarine.

Laser destroyers: Vindicator & Cerberus. The Cerberus can do some nasty damage when outflanking, and so can the vindicators, but they start losing bonuses fast since what they want is to stay still.

Edited by The Scorpion, 24 June 2020 - 04:42 PM.





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