Zincite Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 That's true. I disliked that, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Aldric Posted December 24, 2013 Author Share Posted December 24, 2013 I know it's been said once already but... Space Marine Multilasers. That's really all you need to know to understand just how terrible Goto is. But of course, as everyone has proven with an abundance of examples, he's terrible for many reasons. If you want to like him, that's ok. Canon and accuracy aren't important to everyone... But they are to me and many others. I feel like he'd do alright if he didn't have to work within an established universe so he could make up whatever he wants. But he does, and that universe has lots and lots of loyal, and (sometimes) rabid fans. There were multi lasers in first ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Aldric Posted December 24, 2013 Author Share Posted December 24, 2013 I remember Assault Marines hovering in mid-air to fire their bolters. Fitting an Eldar into an Imperial Vessel never sat right with me either. In fact, the Eldar as a whole never sat right with me. I did enjoy the parts about the initiate's transformation to a Space Marine during the Blood Raven books. It's something you hear about often but not regularly described in detail. Luckily, his age wasn't pointed out to me until after I'd finished the books. Assault marines could hover in first ED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 I know it's been said once already but... Space Marine Multilasers. That's really all you need to know to understand just how terrible Goto is. But of course, as everyone has proven with an abundance of examples, he's terrible for many reasons. If you want to like him, that's ok. Canon and accuracy aren't important to everyone... But they are to me and many others. I feel like he'd do alright if he didn't have to work within an established universe so he could make up whatever he wants. But he does, and that universe has lots and lots of loyal, and (sometimes) rabid fans. There were multi lasers in first ed. And that would have been fine if he had written the book during the Rogue Trader era...but he didn't. It was 4th Edition I think when he wrote that novel. No matter how you want to cut it, Goto is either apathetic or incompetent when it comes to sticking to established, in-universe accuracy. If you want to like it anyway, go right ahead. You won't find many agreeing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 3rd Edition. And other than "It wasn't in the Codex", I see no reason to disagree with it. How does A D-B put it? "What we see in the Codexes and Novels is only a small portion of the 40K universe. There is always more to see." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 I don't have issues with multi lasers and other such technicalities. I canter see any reason why a space marine would not use any tool at his disposal. Many codex decisive are taken for reasons of balance or simplicity rather than fluff, and I can certainly see marines operating far from resupply choosing basic laser weaponry (the 40k equivalent of a kalashnikov) over their own rare specialist equipment. What bothers me about Goto's work is the way his characters behave in ways completely uncharacteristic of their faction. That and the actual quality of the writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 I don't have issues with multi lasers and other such technicalities. I canter see any reason why a space marine would not use any tool at his disposal. Many codex decisive are taken for reasons of balance or simplicity rather than fluff, and I can certainly see marines operating far from resupply choosing basic laser weaponry (the 40k equivalent of a kalashnikov) over their own rare specialist equipment. What bothers me about Goto's work is the way his characters behave in ways completely uncharacteristic of their faction. That and the actual quality of the writing. This is honestly my biggest gripe too. The multilasers bit just really jumped out at me and has stuck with me since; it just instantly broke my immersion in the story and left me feeling (rightfully, as it turned out) skeptical about the course of the story. A small travesty among many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Aldric Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I don't have issues with multi lasers and other such technicalities. I canter see any reason why a space marine would not use any tool at his disposal. Many codex decisive are taken for reasons of balance or simplicity rather than fluff, and I can certainly see marines operating far from resupply choosing basic laser weaponry (the 40k equivalent of a kalashnikov) over their own rare specialist equipment. What bothers me about Goto's work is the way his characters behave in ways completely uncharacteristic of their faction. That and the actual quality of the writing. Finally someone who actually makes sense. I know it's been said once already but... Space Marine Multilasers. That's really all you need to know to understand just how terrible Goto is. But of course, as everyone has proven with an abundance of examples, he's terrible for many reasons. If you want to like him, that's ok. Canon and accuracy aren't important to everyone... But they are to me and many others. I feel like he'd do alright if he didn't have to work within an established universe so he could make up whatever he wants. But he does, and that universe has lots and lots of loyal, and (sometimes) rabid fans. There were multi lasers in first ed. And that would have been fine if he had written the book during the Rogue Trader era...but he didn't. It was 4th Edition I think when he wrote that novel. No matter how you want to cut it, Goto is either apathetic or incompetent when it comes to sticking to established, in-universe accuracy. If you want to like it anyway, go right ahead. You won't find many agreeing with you. Well yeah but who cares? I mean if they told you that space marine armour could be easily cut through with sword crudely from bronze would you just go along with that? Or what they decided that black Templars could easily win against eldar that outnumbered them 100 to 1 would you go along with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I don't really get what you're trying to say here... It seems like you're making my point for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Aldric Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitas Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 To be fair, he did write a surprisingly good short story for the Mantis Warriors: The Trial of the Mantis Warriors in Legends of the Space Marines. Absolutely right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitas Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 to be honest, shamefully mantis warriors got me into 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I tried to read one of the Blood Raven books and I had to put it down at the mention of Angelos being in his 40s. I'm sorry, you do not have a god damned Space marine Captain in his 40s. period. It doesn't work. Many Scouts are in their 40s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitas Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 agreed, there is no way he would be a captain arn`t they indoctraded for 15 odd years it just doesnt add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I tried to read one of the Blood Raven books and I had to put it down at the mention of Angelos being in his 40s. I'm sorry, you do not have a god damned Space marine Captain in his 40s. period. It doesn't work. Many Scouts are in their 40s. Unsure if it's been fully expounded thus far in this thread - but fault here isn't just on the part of the writer, it's on the editor for not picking up those bits and ensuring that they're changed to suit the universe in which it's set. I appreciate that now Laurie et al. are much more on top of this - and it appears to be significantly more conscious, but blaming an author for trying to write about an IP creatively that isn't their own... bound to be some mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I tried to read one of the Blood Raven books and I had to put it down at the mention of Angelos being in his 40s. I'm sorry, you do not have a god damned Space marine Captain in his 40s. period. It doesn't work. Many Scouts are in their 40s. Unsure if it's been fully expounded thus far in this thread - but fault here isn't just on the part of the writer, it's on the editor for not picking up those bits and ensuring that they're changed to suit the universe in which it's set. I appreciate that now Laurie et al. are much more on top of this - and it appears to be significantly more conscious, but blaming an author for trying to write about an IP creatively that isn't their own... bound to be some mistakes. Precisely this. Any editor should not have let such fundamental errors pass. Thankfully, Black Library became much better about this kind of thing in the intervening years, although I do feel sorry for them with how tiny their editing staff is versus their output, particularly when most publishers of equivalent size have way bigger staffs and STILL complain regularly about being overworked. Goto himself was a pretty good short story writer and had some good ideas, but he didn't really pull them off. While he bears some blame for that, I don't know what kind of time constraints or other issues were involved, so I won't cast aspersions on his ability. But from a personal point of view, I really did not enjoy any of his novels at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm surprised no one's mentioned this yet. Deathwatch. A Prime exmaple being the Blood Angel sucessor chapter Librarian, that lives thorugh and controls the Black Rage (hi Mephiston!) and wear's a Bangle Relic as a hood. Who then gets to go Mantis Warrior super Soldier at the end. Unless I'm misremembering. I tried hard to block out the Craftworld invasion and the Techmarine ripping a Talos open with his hands. Meph wasn't good enough, so C.S. Goto created his own super verison (with glowing eyes), from a sucessor chapter. Eat that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Actually he didn't control the Black Rage. Part of that specific character's background was that like all Blood Angels(and their Successors) he had to fight to keep it at bay. At the end of the story, he was consumed by it. The Death Company are not those afflicted with the Black Rage and Red Thirst. They are those who are lost to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm pretty sure he was tied to a block and overcome the Black rage by force of will. Only once he had overcome it, was he gifted the shroud. At the time, he was deployed with the Death Company into the planet's catacombs in order to pursue the fleeing xenos,where he and his comrades succumbed to the terrible effects of theBlack Rage. This led to the company taking out their blood rage againstone another; Ashok killed three of his fellow Space Marines before he managed to control his Rage. For the next three years, he became strapped to the Tablet of Lestrallio in his Chapter's Fortress Monastery, where he faced his nightmares. After he emerged from this event, Ashok was presented with the Shroud of Lemartesas a symbol of his mastery of the Black Rage. He had successfullymanaged to deal with its affects, although he has to combat the signs.[1] Yup. Mastery of the Black Rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yeah. And? Mephiston does not fight the Black Rage. This guy still did. There's even one point where he used the shroud to help keeping from being consumed by it. Remembering one little detail of "he made it out of the Death Company alive" does not change the fact that he still had to fight the Black Rage lest he be lost. And in Warrior's Coven we do see him get lost. Besides, it ain't no different a degree of special snowflake than Kaldor Draigo, the man who singlehandedly bested a daemon primarch. But an Angel Sanguine who underwent anger management and still has issues? Nope. That's a line too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Why bring Ward into this? Also, I was wrong. If it makes any difference, Meph succumbed to the Red Thirst. It was Lemartes that was the only Blood Angel to have ever controlled the Black Rage. Edit: He didn't just make it out alive. After three days, by sheer force of will he "as a symbol of his mastery of the Black Rage", mastered the Black Rage. Still, I suppose the shroud he has was a nod to the fluff he was, using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yes, and through both novels he is also constantly being seen as doing everything he can to not give in to the Black Rage. And in the second novel, he fails. Control is a finite thing. Mephiston's control is to the point it took a daemon to break it, and that was still something the more hardcore Blood Angel fans had trouble believing. Lemartes is virtually the same extent. But this guy? A tyranid Hive Min is enough to test his limits and torture by the Dark Eldar is enough to break it. Control is a very finite thing and having it does not mean you have it in the same abundance as others. Rafen has more control than this guy does. Ashok does not have the necessary control to be compared to Lemartes and Mephiston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Then he doesn't have Mastery... Except Lemartes is the same. They warned Astorath that it would be impossible for Lemartes to stay incontrol forever, so Astorath offered him his unique role as leader ofthe Death Company.[1] Let's not forget, this series also bought us Dark Eldar that are working for a Daemon of Slannesh. The same entity that is devouring their souls... Though they discovered Slaanesh was still slowly claiming their souls,the denizens of Commorragh soon discovered that by absorbing the painand torments of another's soul they could rejuvenate themselves andcheat death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDF Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Maybe they thought they could persuade it to devour someone else's soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Maybe they thought they could persuade it to devour someone else's soul? That's exactly it. Of course, they realize that in order to keep it up, they have to keep on doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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