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It has been 22 years since I last played WH40k...


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#1
Shadespyre

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Do Space Marine Chaplains take confession?

 

Hello everyone. Back in 1991 I commanded my Space Marine Chapter, the Grey Slayers, for the last time. That was using the original Rogue Trader rules, and an army full of plastic RTB01 Mark 6 "beaky" Marines (which were usually known as "ratties" in my gaming group!).

 

Most of my RT era collection of Imperials and Eldar is long since gone, sold off to pay the bills of "adult life". But over the last 5 years or so I have given up on adult life once more in favour of spending all my time and money on wargames, mostly "proper" Warhammer as none of my gaming buddies have any interest in the round-based game.

 

Until now. One of my friends wants to give it a go, and has suggested a small "escalation" style project. I was loathe to take on a new project but then I found some old RT marines in one of my many mini boxes hidden in the loft. And so...

 

Over the next year I hope to assemble a small force of Space Marines, using RT era Mark 6 models, mostly the "proper" metals, but compatible with the current rules. The main reason I've come to B&C is to get help with planning a force which is legal and viable within the restrictions placed on me by the models (I'm loathe to convert valuable classics!) and inspiration for a new chapter name and paint scheme.

 

One question - B&C seems very tight on keeping it all Imperial, is it proper to post links to non-Imperial non-WH40k and indeed non-GW stuff here or in my signature? Don't want to upset people on my first day!

 

 



#2
Storm Hawks Legion

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Welcome to the B&C brother!
and welcome back to the hobby


I'm no mod but most people's signature has links to things like their blogs and galleries, most of which at least contain non-Power Armored content, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

I also am not the most familiar with the old RTB01 but so far as I know you shouldn't have a problem, most to all the weapons included are still used

good luck with your project, I'll aid in any way I can
 



#3
Major_Gilbear

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Hi and welcome back!

 

Marines in many ways haven't changed *that* much in 22 years, at least I think everything you'll have from RT days can still be used now with no conversion. Some things that spring to mind however regarding those old models:

 

1) Terminators are on 40mm bases now. Since the old models are a bit smaller, you simply have a bit more room to make them more scenic!

 

2) Conversion Beamers are limited availability (they are essentially Techmarine relic weapons). As long as you paint yours to look like Techmarines and field them as such, no problems there either.

 

3) Assault troops with non- boltpistol+chainsword weapon loadouts. Some can be sergeants (powerfist, pwersword especially). Up two models can have plasmas pistols, as can the Sergeant. Hand flamers I'd count as normal flamers, and you can up to two of those instead of plasma pistols (or a mix of one-and-one).

 

4) Graviton guns and now special weapons like flamers and plasma guns - Tactical squads can choose one if they wish. Veteran squads and command squads can have more.

 

5) There are no space marine jet bikes (aside from the Dark Angels Master of the Ravenwing special character), but they can be proxied as normal bikes instead (they make good command squads!).

 

6) Power-armoured space marines cannot have sniper/needle rifles, and no space marine can have shuriken catapults ever. However, these can be painted up differently and used as allied inquisitors if you like - their guns can be used to represent a variety of strange and exotic weaponry instead!

 

7) Tarantulas, Mole Mortars, and Rapiers are not part of the standard 40k codex, and Thudd Guns have been replaced with Thunderfire Cannons. I'd say that all the old artillery can count as Thunderfire Cannons quite happliy though. If you have a variety of them, you might want to mount them all on a standard base -say 60mm- so that it makes it easy and even to play against.

 

8 ) Dreadnoughts are on 60mm bases as standard now, and there are no rules for robots in the standard 40k codex. You can count them all as Dreadnoughts, although getting some of the really old weapons to match up with current rules might be difficult. If you have a chapter who uses a lot of Dreads, maybe you can put the old ones (and the robots) on 50mm bases and count them as Centurions rules-wise instead?

 

I think that's it... Basically, as long as you hold off painting squad numbers until you know what you want in each one, feel free to start painting pretty much whatever you like from your collection!

 

Edit:

 

These might be of interest perhaps? I rather liked the way they were "updated" to current rules anyway... :P


Edited by Major_Gilbear, 03 December 2013 - 05:42 PM.

My Dark Angels 5th Company Painting Log (NB: images are now all fixed!)

#4
Shadespyre

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Thanks for the advice guys. I'll sort myself out a fancy signature so you can all go and look at my other projects (if you want!)

 

That's a great run down of the possibilities for the old minis, thanks. It seems like the basics are much the same (serg, 2 special weapons and 7 marines in a squad). Shame about the jetbikes, looks like I'll be cashing those in to buy more Black Shadows - do I need 10 bikes for a squad? What about sidecar combos?

 

Assault marines are going to be a problem, there were never that many minis made with chainswords, it was the weapon of choice for medics as I recall.

 

Vehicle wise, I have a couple of old Rhinos, a Predator, a Predator Annihilator and a Whirlwind. Are those still allowed for Marines? I'd love a Land Raider but they change hands for £50 these days!!!



#5
Storm Hawks Legion

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Rhinos, Predators and Whirlwinds are most definitely still allowed, though Rhino's are a bit, fragile now... though that seems to be the modes operendi for Marines in 6th anyway, our armor save doesn't mean as much as it used to....

Bikes run between three and eight bikes, then one attack bike (sidecar) for a maximum of ten marines in the squad,
Attack Bikes, run between one and three bikes to a squad

as for the assault marines, can't help much except to say to your opponent "those aren't power weapons, they're close combat weapons!"
except the entry specifically lists chainswords.... could use them as Vanguard Veterans, any model in a Vanguard squad can use items off the melee weapon list, which includes power weapons, and power fists,



#6
Aqui

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Welcome to B+C happy.png

As someone else who is using RT Era Marines, I also found getting Assault squads from that time next to impossible, so I bit the bullet and I'm using modern models. Not an ideal solution, but I can live with it smile.png

Most of the questions you've asked look to be answered already, although I have read that Terminators from way back are still legal on their smaller bases (many modellers put them on larger bases just to make things easier in game, however). Not sure how official that is though, but I'll be sure to keep an eye out for your eventual WIP topic smile.png

Any idea on which Chapter you're going to do?

In the darkness between the stars, the weak and the faithless find no deliverance. We are raised to believe that the God-Emperor watches over us all. And so we are charged to cleanse the mutant, the heretic and the alien. We must not falter. We are His sword. We are His wrath. Even in the face of death, we shall not submit. Suffering is our prayer. Faith is our armour. In Battle He offers us redemption. And for those who proves their worth, the Emperor sends sends forth His Angels!


#7
Shadespyre

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That's a big help, thanks!

Digging through my box, I have the makings of 3 tactical squads, though I'll need to scavenge ebay for a few to fill gaps. I'll try to assemble 3 Rhinos and two tanks from the chassis I have (in a bucket of paint stripper at the moment), And I have two old Dreads as well :)

If it all goes well, I'll aim to add an assault squad (how?) and a devastator squad, tho I can see that getting expensive! And also a bike squad if I can grab a couple more off ebay.

Terminators would be nice, I used to have the old metal boxed set, I bet that's pricey to replace now!

One last thing for now - do chaplains, medics, librarians and officers just go in an HQ unit, or get assigned to units? I seem to have 3 chaplains and 3 medics which may be excessive?!

Aquilanus, I've got no idea on Chapter at the moment, I'll probably make up my own name and colours if I can think of one no-one has used yet! I've painted a lot of red and blue and brown on my Warhammer armies, so green/turquoise, yellow/orange, purple, grey (like my old force) are all options. I'd be tempted by a colour I can get in spray cans (saves so much valuable time!).

Looks like my mate will be going with Chaos Space Marines as his force, so what he chooses for colour / allegiance will influence my choice. I'm hoping we can do matching basing and am already scheming to make a playing surface and scenery to match!

(Perhaps I should explain that I have around 20 miniatures projects at various stages, and I do tend to get over-ambitious and carried away, as my 600 Middenheim soldiers will attest!)

Edited by Shadespyre, 04 December 2013 - 12:38 AM.


#8
Aqui

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Apothecaries (Medics) are only available in a Command Squad, so yeah three is quite a few! laugh.png Chaplains and Librarians can either go solo or tag along with a squad though. They can also be the main HQ Character in the army or be a secondary one if you choose to take two HQ's.

In the darkness between the stars, the weak and the faithless find no deliverance. We are raised to believe that the God-Emperor watches over us all. And so we are charged to cleanse the mutant, the heretic and the alien. We must not falter. We are His sword. We are His wrath. Even in the face of death, we shall not submit. Suffering is our prayer. Faith is our armour. In Battle He offers us redemption. And for those who proves their worth, the Emperor sends sends forth His Angels!


#9
Shadespyre

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Right, so maybe I will keep all three chaplains in and go for a particularly devout Chapter.

 

My opponent has declared for Nurgle. I don't know what that means in terms of specifics, but I imagine a lot of green, rust and oozing pus! Can he include Daemons? He has a thing for the old Great Unclean One model.

 

Now I have a vision of our battlefield - an industrialised area, ravaged and ruined by war. Blasted buildings, skeletons of shattered plascrete and rusty rebars, stand like islands in a wasteland of black ash and sticky toxic pools fed by broken pipelines and ruptured storage tanks. Perhaps tiny twisted plants have started to find their way back amongst the fading warning colours of discarded drums and warning signs, and the growing detritus of a years-long war to reclaim whatever can be salvaged.

 

Did I mention I get over-excited?

 

There won't be a brush anywhere near a Space Marine this side of Christmas, but I'll kick off a WIP thread soon so I have somewhere to collect my thoughts. Thanks everyone for the input so far, I'm now very glad this project has come along! thanks.gif



#10
Major_Gilbear

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For assault marines, can you convert some of the old RTB01 plastics? The kits come with bolt pistols I think, so you just need to source some suitable chainswords really.

Oh, and jump-packs I guess, but you can get those loose on Ebay (although I'll bet most are likely recasts... :( ). Alternatively, run the assault squad on foot, or in a Rhino, or in a drop pod.

 

Do *all* the models you end up including *have* to be RT-era? Because if not, there are lots of third-party bits-manufacturers that supply era-approriate parts (like jump packs - example here).

 

Aquilanus has picked up the rest of your questions, and regading the Terminators: the "official" stance is that models must be mounted on the bases that they are supplied with. This was worded in this way so that players with exisiting collections didn't have to re-base. However, since Terminators come on 40mm bases nowadays, and the old metal models were prone to tipping over on 25mm bases, most people tend use the 40mm option anyway.

 

Finally, for chapter choice, I might suggest Imperial Fists? They fit with your colour parameters, will look good with your models and against your opponent's models, and can be used in either 40k or with Forge World's Horus Heresy setting. The yellow also looks good against grey or dark tan in case you want to two-tone your vehicles in a style more reminiscent of RT days.

 

Painting-wise, the yellow need not be daunting or complicated either:

 

- Spray white (cheap and easy). Best spray in the UK is from Halford's - their own brand primer.

 

- Mix up yellow paint and yellow ink with a bit of water and give the models a heavy wash. This will settle on flat and recessed areas to give you a yellow, and fade up to the edges which will have a natural highlight from the white undercoat showing through. Let this dry throughly, preferably overnight.

 

- Add a little warm brown ink to the previous yellow mix and use it pick out panel lines and similar details carefully.

 

- Paint in other details as normal.

 

Alternatively, check out Army Painter - they do coloured sprays, matching and complimentary paints, and various other hobby products designed to make painting big armies in a simple scheme easy.

 

 


My Dark Angels 5th Company Painting Log (NB: images are now all fixed!)

#11
Shadespyre

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A good question about using *all* RT era models. The answer is that I'd really like to, that's my "excuse" for doing the project if you like. This means that *ideally* all the models (including vehicles) will be from the 1987-92 ish period rather than later ones. To be honest, for the initial scope of this project, which is pitched at the level of 5 marines or a vehicle painted a month for a year, I doubt I'll run out of RT era stuff to use.

 

Recasts are a different issue - if they are sufficiently good that I can't tell, I'm not too bothered - it's a lot harder than people think to do it well, and I've done a few bits and bobs myself to complete models in fantasy armies, although I personally would never sell recasts on or pass them off as originals. Also, if bits are hard to find I'm happy to press mould them in green stuff (unit insignia, for example) working from original pieces. Even back in the 1980s some of my second hand marines had backpacks made from Milliput in plastiscene press moulds, because there were no internet bitz sellers back then!

 

For assault marines, it occurred to me there are later Mk6 models from the "plastic arms" era of space marines - if I can hunt these down I'd be happier kitting these out with new arms and chainswords than converting RTB01s. I'm also on the look out for damaged RT era models, because if it's already ruined I don't  mind converting it further! Similarly, if I need extras I'd be happy to use Mk 6 heads made yesterday as long as they fit the design.

 

Colour wise, I'm pretty scared of painting yellow, so thanks for the suggestion of a technique. I am of late quite a fan of the Iyanden Yellow foundation paint (which is more of a mustardy yellow) as a spot colour, so it's in my mind. In fact the old Foundation colours include some other favourites of mine: Fenris Grey, Hormagaunt Purple, Necron Abyss and Mechrite Red (all over my Vampire army!) are all nice shades. I'm also a big fan of Hawk Turquoise - in fact, I have half a pot left from the Ork and Eldar paint set from RT days!



#12
Olis

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Hail and welcome to B&C, brother. I see you have met a selection of our friendlier members here. ;)

 

If you have any questions to ask, don't be afraid to message me. It's what I'm here for. 

 

 

Rules for your signature is as follows:

 

SIGNATURES: Signatures are an interesting way to add a little personality to your replies, as well as a means of providing links. Signatures will be limited, however, in order to keep them from becoming a distraction.
  • You may have up to 10 lines of normal-sized text. Larger text size or the addition of images will reduce the number of lines allowed.
  • You may have multiple images.
  • The image(s) must fit in a single space no wider than 800 pixels and no taller than 100 pixels high.
  • Signatures with image(s) that exceeds the maximum dimensions allowed will be subject to editing.
  • You may advertise your own web site or projects in your signatures, but links to sites with objectionable content will be edited and subject to banning (porn, etc.).

 

Also, if you fancy attempting to create your own chapter, I humbly suggest popping over to the Liber for advice and critique. 

 

 

 

And finally...

 

Do Space Marine Chaplains take confession?

 

Probably. I know I do. Do you have any sins you wish to have cleansed in purifying fire*? devil.gif

 

 

*Disclaimer: Side effects may include; Singing of the fingers, eyebrow loss, branding, scarification, limb loss and death.  


Edited by Olisredan, 05 December 2013 - 10:24 PM.

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#13
Aqui

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Do Space Marine Chaplains take confession?

 
Probably. I know I do. Do you have any sins you wish to have cleansed in purifying fire*? devil.gif
 
 
*Disclaimer: Side effects may include; Singing of the fingers, eyebrow loss, branding, scarification, limb loss and death.  


It will do if you ever actually get your hands on one of them Volkite weapons blink.pnglaugh.png

In the darkness between the stars, the weak and the faithless find no deliverance. We are raised to believe that the God-Emperor watches over us all. And so we are charged to cleanse the mutant, the heretic and the alien. We must not falter. We are His sword. We are His wrath. Even in the face of death, we shall not submit. Suffering is our prayer. Faith is our armour. In Battle He offers us redemption. And for those who proves their worth, the Emperor sends sends forth His Angels!


#14
Olis

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Ah yes, Volkite weaponry. drool.gif

 

Shadespyre, to keep you in the loop, a Volkite weapon is:

 

'Volkite' is an arcane Mecanicum term referring to a variety of thermal ray weapons of ancient Martian provenance. Once commonplace amongst the Legiones Astartes, demand has outstripped supply and the Terran bolter has superceded the Volkite amongst all but specialist Space Marine units.

 

(Quoted from the FW website.)

 

 

My take on the matter shortly after they were introduced officially into the Heresy era by FW:

 

Olisredan, on 12 Dec 2012 - 00:30, said:
Volkite weaponry display shorter ranges than standard weaponry (the Volkite Serpenta pistol has a range of 10" for example), have a strength of five and an AP of five and come with a special rule called 'Deflagrate' which inflicts a further wound on a squad for every unsaved wound caused. They're rare weapons, even during the Crusade/Heresy era due to their high need of maintenance and it's this factor that decides that the standard astartes weapon is Bolt weaponry rather than Volkite. So, Volkite weapons had a shot at being the standard space marine arsenal, is what I read from that. :)

 

Suffice to say, I have a... fascination of them. wink.png


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#15
Major_Gilbear

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A good question about using *all* RT era models. The answer is that I'd really like to, that's my "excuse" for doing the project if you like. This means that *ideally* all the models (including vehicles) will be from the 1987-92 ish period rather than later ones. To be honest, for the initial scope of this project, which is pitched at the level of 5 marines or a vehicle painted a month for a year, I doubt I'll run out of RT era stuff to use.

 

Recasts are a different issue - if they are sufficiently good that I can't tell, I'm not too bothered - it's a lot harder than people think to do it well, and I've done a few bits and bobs myself to complete models in fantasy armies, although I personally would never sell recasts on or pass them off as originals. Also, if bits are hard to find I'm happy to press mould them in green stuff (unit insignia, for example) working from original pieces. Even back in the 1980s some of my second hand marines had backpacks made from Milliput in plastiscene press moulds, because there were no internet bitz sellers back then!

 

For assault marines, it occurred to me there are later Mk6 models from the "plastic arms" era of space marines - if I can hunt these down I'd be happier kitting these out with new arms and chainswords than converting RTB01s. I'm also on the look out for damaged RT era models, because if it's already ruined I don't  mind converting it further! Similarly, if I need extras I'd be happy to use Mk 6 heads made yesterday as long as they fit the design.

 

I understand about using RT-era stuff!

 

Don't forget that a lot of troops used to share a common weapon pool, so you may be able to get Imperial chainswords for your Marines from Guard troops and others, and that you might be able to convert some from RT-era plastic Ork versions too.

 

As for re-casting, it's a touchy subject to recast whole models: my advice is to steer clear of it's discussion if you can!

 

Colour wise, I'm pretty scared of painting yellow, so thanks for the suggestion of a technique. I am of late quite a fan of the Iyanden Yellow foundation paint (which is more of a mustardy yellow) as a spot colour, so it's in my mind. In fact the old Foundation colours include some other favourites of mine: Fenris Grey, Hormagaunt Purple, Necron Abyss and Mechrite Red (all over my Vampire army!) are all nice shades. I'm also a big fan of Hawk Turquoise - in fact, I have half a pot left from the Ork and Eldar paint set from RT days!

 

You might have a look at some of the Badab War material that was re-imagined by Forge World too perhaps? You can get most of the info and scheme details from various 40k Wikis, and you might find a scheme you like amongst them.

 

Edit:

 

These Imperial Fists might inspire you otherwise however! ;)


Edited by Major_Gilbear, 06 December 2013 - 12:16 AM.

My Dark Angels 5th Company Painting Log (NB: images are now all fixed!)

#16
The Lord Marshal

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welcome!

 

in regards to colors, you definitely seem interested in some (i agree) very nice color values.  you might want to look into chapters like the Imp Fists, as stated, and Howling Griffons.  definitely also look at the Liber DIYs and the galleries. and it never hurts to roam around lexicanum and the 40kwiki


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#17
Shadespyre

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These Imperial Fists might inspire you otherwise however! msn-wink.gif

 

Yeah, those are both beautiful and waaaaay better than I will be producing. Which rather puts me off going for yellow!unsure.png

 

I haven't actually laid hands on C:SM yet, but I gather that the ancestry of a Chapter impacts on army lists and rules? So it'll probably be a decision for after Christmas.

 

Now I _will_ start a WIP thread before waffling on here any more!thumbsup.gif



#18
Major_Gilbear

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Yeah, those are both beautiful and waaaaay better than I will be producing. Which rather puts me off going for yellow!unsure.png

 

Nah, don't be like that! Painting yellow is more about planning and technique than it is about difficulty; just don't lock yourself into a complicated process that you are then forced to replicate for a whole army.

 

Another suggestion (if you're dead set against yellow) is to try maybe something like the Death Eagles' old colour scheme of purple and white (linky)?

 

I haven't actually laid hands on C:SM yet, but I gather that the ancestry of a Chapter impacts on army lists and rules? So it'll probably be a decision for after Christmas.

 

Basically, each of the First Founding chapters has a chapter trait rule that reflects the particular strengths/style of each. Successor chapters (who draw their geneseed from one of the First Founding) use the same traits as their "parent" chapter. It's not really a huge deal in some respects - more about fluff and fun - but inevitably people can be quite competitive about it.

 

Now I _will_ start a WIP thread before waffling on here any more!thumbsup.gif

 

 

Good: I expect to see brightly-coloured marines soon! ;)


My Dark Angels 5th Company Painting Log (NB: images are now all fixed!)

#19
Hellios

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These Imperial Fists might inspire you otherwise however! msn-wink.gif

 

Yeah, those are both beautiful and waaaaay better than I will be producing. Which rather puts me off going for yellow!unsure.png

 

I haven't actually laid hands on C:SM yet, but I gather that the ancestry of a Chapter impacts on army lists and rules? So it'll probably be a decision for after Christmas.

 

Now I _will_ start a WIP thread before waffling on here any more!thumbsup.gif

 

FW also has a PDF of extra chapter traits (for free) on their website. For example (I think) the Red Scorpions can(must?) upgrade sergeants to Apothecaries.