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B&C Stance on non PA Allies


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#1
Gentlemanloser

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With the advent of Codex: Inquisition and it's close ally chart, and Formations that just about every army can use, will the B&C change it's stance on the discussion of allies taken from armies not covered here?

 

If I'd like to discuss the merits of an army made up of (Just an example) Codex: Inquisition Primary, and multiple Tau Support Formations, where should I disucss this?

 

With armies becoming a lot more modular and spread across all the races (bar Nids), is it still worth trying to limit discussion of potential Tau options?

 

We already have no restriction on IG, Chaos and Daemons.  As Nids (currently) have no allies, that leaves restirctions on only Tau, Eldar/Dark Eldar and Necrons.

 

While they shouldn't be given thier own sub forums, shuldn't we be able to discuss thier impact without restriction?


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#2
Jolemai

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Discuss it in Tactica.

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#3
Gentlemanloser

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There's quite a few threads the mods will need to move to tactica at the moment then...


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#4
BrotherCaptainArkhan

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I strongly oppose the B&C becoming any more open to alien *hawk spit* races than it is at the moment. Seriously though, Gentlemanloser, I am a little at a loss as to why you don't discuss the aforementioned topics on Dakka, which has a thriving tactics forum open to all races and is generally much more competition-focussed (or even simply focussed on competitive builds) than the B&C.

 

The B&C has a unique identity as it stands and I think that should be preserved.


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#5
Gentlemanloser

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Like the Chaos/Ad Mech guys who are talking about using Tau 'counts-as'?

 

Nothing to do with any 'fluff' regarding the race (and there is no fluff, didn't you know there's no canon...), just the mechanics.


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#6
BrotherCaptainArkhan

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Nothing to do with any 'fluff' regarding the race (and there is no fluff, didn't you know there's no canon...), just the mechanics.

 

I don't begrudge you your opinion, but that's your opinion and shouldn't be presented as fact. You may think fluff doesn't enter into it but I'm willing to bet there's a forum full of people who disagree with you.

I hadn't seen the Tau stuff in the Admech forum but am not hugely keen on that either to be honest, I don't personally like the idea of using alien rules to represent human (and they are ultimately human) forces.


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#7
Gentlemanloser

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I'm sure there are forums dedicated to the Tau, and thier fluff.  I'm quite adamant that they shouldn't get thier own subforum here.

 

But there are people using the rules to 'counts-as', which has nothing to do with the Tau as a race.

 

Why should people be shunted to another website to do that?  What benefit does that serve the B&C?


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#8
Brother dean

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Daemons are here because Daemons used to be in the CSM codex back when the B&C started.  Likewise, Inquisitors are here because they used to be in the Daemonhunters/Witchunters codexes.   Guard are here on sufferance.

 

Admech does not belong here (except maybe in the HH forums), Orks, Eldar and Tau do not belong here and have their own dedicated forums elsewhere on the net where I do not go barging in and asking if they mind if I draw up a list with SM allies.  I come in here to escape all that sillyness on Dakka and Warseer.

 

You may feel that this forum is hidebound, restrictive and stuffy but you sir, are in a minority.

I have a counter question, Why do you think there SHOULDNT be an exclusive PA only site?


Edited by Brother dean, 04 December 2013 - 03:04 PM.

"deans somewhat less rarely updated log" (ammobunker) DA, GotC and PA follies (B&C plog)

 

4500pts of Deathwing...   Quantity is a Quality all it's own.

 

 

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#9
Fibonacci

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B&C Stance on non PA Allies  .... is already too lenient.  No more.  It has erroded too far already.



#10
Gentlemanloser

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Why do you think there SHOULDNT be an exclusive PA only site?

 

We don't play with single stand alone Codexes any more.

 

Recent changes have literally rammed this in our faces.

 

Closing the door to this helps no-one.

 

B&C Stance on non PA Allies .... is already too lenient. No more. It has erroded too far already.

 

Is the Inquisition Codex a Power Armour Codex?

 

When you can form a legal, Primary detachment form a single 25 point Inquisitor, are you running a Power Armour list?

 

There are no restricitons on Ally sizes (bar FoC slots), nor on different race Formations.

 

You can legally field a Power Armour army of a single Inquisitor and as many Xenos Formations as you can Squeeze in.  If you do this with nothing by Tau Formations, are you running a Tau army?

 

Should your army designation be based on number of units, from each codex? Percentage of points spent form different Codexes?

 

From your Primary detachment only?

 

Codex: Inquisition and Formations have really blown apart the notion of single race armies.


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 04 December 2013 - 03:29 PM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#11
Kol Saresk

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No xenos. As antagonists in fanfic, that's the limit. BnC only became Humanities out of necessity due to half of Chaos involving daemons as well as an entire unit entry being devoted to Mortals and since Inquisitors and Sisters were already included, might as well throw everything else.

But not xenos. A little necessity here does not mean a large want there. Just because a little thing here goes unnoticed or is handled leniently/discreetly by the mod/admin who comes across it, does not give the justification to do something big, even through ignorance, as I have learned.

So no, no xenos. Period. Unless they're dying in fanfic.

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#12
Brother dean

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Why do you think there SHOULDNT be an exclusive PA only site?

 

We don't play with single stand alone Codexes any more.

[snip]

 

Is the Inquisition Codex a Power Armour Codex?

 

Speak for yourself and your local meta only please. I think you greatly overestimate the changes a single, e-codex only, supplemental codex will make to the complete metagame.   My local metagame will have one or two players out of 20 or so with an e-codex and they may or may not even use codex =I=.

 

 

And yes, an Inquisitor playing with only Tau allies is playing a Tau list and would be under the responsibility of TauOnline... (if they still exist..)


"deans somewhat less rarely updated log" (ammobunker) DA, GotC and PA follies (B&C plog)

 

4500pts of Deathwing...   Quantity is a Quality all it's own.

 

 

 (TheShadowGuard)
On wings of death they shall ride, to unleash hell and fury from above
Sons of Johnson shall roll like a tide, in memory of the father and the lord they love

 

 


#13
Gentlemanloser

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And yes, an Inquisitor playing with only Tau allies is playing a Tau list and would be under the responsibility of TauOnline

 

First, why would I want to go somewhere else?

 

Secondly, now look at a 2K, dual FoC army.  Take two Primary Inquisitorial Detachments, 4 Inquisitors, 6 Warbands.  Fill up the rest of the points by Tau Formations.

 

Tau army now?

 

How do you judge?

 

Number of points in each detachment?  Number of units?

 

GW doesn't make any sort of distinction here, there's no judgement or even guidance on thier behalf.  So why have you?


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#14
Jolemai

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There's quite a few threads the mods will need to move to tactica at the moment then...

Isn't that up to the mods then? If you are referring to those in News, Rumours and Board Announcements then that's fine as it covers discussion on new 40k stuff. Subsequent discussion should be elsewhere.

From this thread:

If your army list is 2 armies currently covered by the B&C as allies then you can discuss them wherever it is appropriate for that. But if your allies list contains armies we do not cover (i.e. Xenos and Imperial Guard) then your lists and how best to use your non power armor allies will be restricted to the Tactica and Army List forums. Obviously full Xenos and IG armies won’t be allowed at all. Nor will a Xenos/IG army with Marines/Sisters/Chaos as allies. Because lets be honest, if you are allying with vile Xenos then your Chapter should be hunted down, destroyed and the ashes used to salt the earth.dry.png

A quick example:

Your Ultramarine Army, allied with Blood Angels you can discuss in the UM forum even the BA forum, Tactica, Army list or where ever the info needed can be obtained.
However your Blood Angel army bro-fisting Necrons can only be discussed in the Tactica or Army list areas. Not in the Blood Angels forum and you certainly cannot post your Necron models on the site.

Which should also answer your question. If not, take it up with the mods.

Edited by Jolemai, 04 December 2013 - 04:12 PM.

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#15
Brother dean

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And yes, an Inquisitor playing with only Tau allies is playing a Tau list and would be under the responsibility of TauOnline

 

First, why would I want to go somewhere else?

[snip]

 

How do you judge?

 

 

GW doesn't make any sort of distinction here, there's no judgement or even guidance on thier behalf.  So why have you?

You may not want to go somewhere else but your wants do not dictate what is allowed on this site.

 

I dont Judge.  The persons actually paying out of pocket to keep the site open get to judge. (actually I guess I do get to judge then since I am a past donor).

 

Because this is a "theme" army site as stated by the management.  That army listed falls far outside the theme as shown in the example immediately above this post.  You are taking a neglected corner of the theme that is only allowed in because of past associations and trying to break the system and I am wondering what your true motives are...


"deans somewhat less rarely updated log" (ammobunker) DA, GotC and PA follies (B&C plog)

 

4500pts of Deathwing...   Quantity is a Quality all it's own.

 

 

 (TheShadowGuard)
On wings of death they shall ride, to unleash hell and fury from above
Sons of Johnson shall roll like a tide, in memory of the father and the lord they love

 

 


#16
Kol Saresk

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There's quite a few threads the mods will need to move to tactica at the moment then...

Isn't that up to the mods then? If you are referring to those in News, Rumours and Board Announcements then that's fine as it covers discussion on new 40k stuff. Subsequent discussion should be elsewhere.

From this thread:

If your army list is 2 armies currently covered by the B&C as allies then you can discuss them wherever it is appropriate for that. But if your allies list contains armies we do not cover (i.e. Xenos and Imperial Guard) then your lists and how best to use your non power armor allies will be restricted to the Tactica and Army List forums. Obviously full Xenos and IG armies won’t be allowed at all. Nor will a Xenos/IG army with Marines/Sisters/Chaos as allies. Because lets be honest, if you are allying with vile Xenos then your Chapter should be hunted down, destroyed and the ashes used to salt the earth.dry.png

A quick example:

Your Ultramarine Army, allied with Blood Angels you can discuss in the UM forum even the BA forum, Tactica, Army list or where ever the info needed can be obtained.
However your Blood Angel army bro-fisting Necrons can only be discussed in the Tactica or Army list areas. Not in the Blood Angels forum and you certainly cannot post your Necron models on the site.

Which should also answer your question. If not, take it up with the mods.


Ooh, that's an oldie. Actually since the IG now have their own sub-forum, I'd be willing to hazard, they can leave the Tactica and Army List sections. biggrin.png

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#17
facmanpob

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If we refer to the OP before the argument gets too far off the rails and gets the thread nuked....

With the advent of Codex: Inquisition and it's close ally chart, and Formations that just about every army can use, will the B&C change it's stance on the discussion of allies taken from armies not covered here?

Personally, given the changes that GW have made in the last few weeks, which have changed the way we can (if we choose) construct our army lists, I think it is entirely reasonable to ask the question of whether B&C should change it's stance on Xenos discussion with regard to allies. Regardless of whether the answer is yes or no we gain nothing by not discussing it, and having an open and reasonable discussion may be of value.

My personal view is that I haven't actually made up my mind either way....

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#18
Eddie Orlock

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... I am wondering what your true motives are...

Well, dean, I'd wager that he's motivated to remain with the community with whom he has had positive experiences with and developed an affinity. He probably want's to hang out with his buddies and I don't blame him.


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#19
Kol Saresk

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If we refer to the OP before the argument gets too far off the rails and gets the thread nuked....

With the advent of Codex: Inquisition and it's close ally chart, and Formations that just about every army can use, will the B&C change it's stance on the discussion of allies taken from armies not covered here?

Personally, given the changes that GW have made in the last few weeks, which have changed the way we can (if we choose) construct our army lists, I think it is entirely reasonable to ask the question of whether B&C should change it's stance on Xenos discussion with regard to allies. Regardless of whether the answer is yes or no we gain nothing by not discussing it, and having an open and reasonable discussion may be of value.

My personal view is that I haven't actually made up my mind either way....


And in regards to the OP, there are appropriate places on BnC to discuss those things concerning xenos allies. Those places are the Tactica and Army List threads.

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#20
Gentlemanloser

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Ooh, that's an oldie. Actually since the IG now have their own sub-forum, I'd be willing to hazard, they can leave the Tactica and Army List sections.

 

I also expressed my concern of that in the original thread (the GK one is a C&P of the original).

 

 

Isn't that up to the mods then?

 

Totally.  But we can discuss this.

 

You may not want to go somewhere else but your wants do not dictate what is allowed on this site.

 

You are suggesting the solution is for me to leave the B&C, and go elsewhere.

 

Maybe I don't want to , as I prefer talking to the friends I've made here.  Maybe I desire the knowledge and expertise that posters here have shown.

 

 

I dont Judge. The persons actually paying out of pocket to keep the site open get to judge. (actually I guess I do get to judge then since I am a past donor).

 

You have judged the army list as a 'Tau' army.

 

 

Because this is a "theme" army site as stated by the management. That army listed falls far outside the theme as shown in the example immediately above this post. You are taking a neglected corner of the theme that is only allowed in because of past associations and trying to break the system and I am wondering what your true motives are...

 

Then subs it with Space Wolves.  Or space Marines.

 

Both are Battle Brothers to the new Tau Formation.

 

Edit: The posts above actually sum everything up in a nutshell. ;)

 

Thanks!
 


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 04 December 2013 - 04:36 PM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#21
facmanpob

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And in regards to the OP, there are appropriate places on BnC to discuss those things concerning xenos allies. Those places are the Tactica and Army List threads.

True, but I know that, for example, a lot of the DA players don't frequent the Tactica forums as the discussion there tends to focus around Codex: SM. So if I wanted to talk about a DA Primary Detachment with a Tau Firebase Support Cadre formation, I wouldn't be able to discuss it in the area where I would get the best DA knowledge (the DA sub-forum). For me, it is this particular aspect of the B&C policy which could benefit from a reasoned discussion. As I previously mentioned, however, I'm not sure whether it would be a good idea to change the policy, but I'd be happy to contribute to a debate.

smile.png

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#22
Kol Saresk

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And in regards to the OP, there are appropriate places on BnC to discuss those things concerning xenos allies. Those places are the Tactica and Army List threads.

True, but I know that, for example, a lot of the DA players don't frequent the Tactica forums as the discussion there tends to focus around Codex: SM. So if I wanted to talk about a DA Primary Detachment with a Tau Firebase Support Cadre formation, I wouldn't be able to discuss it in the area where I would get the best DA knowledge (the DA sub-forum). For me, it is this particular aspect of the B&C policy which could benefit from a reasoned discussion. As I previously mentioned, however, I'm not sure whether it would be a good idea to change the policy, but I'd be happy to contribute to a debate.

smile.png


Hmm, well I know "reference threads" seem to be okay as I've never seen one shut down. So maybe you could post a thread in the DA thread just saying "Hey, I would like advice on this subject in this thread(which is hyperlinked)" and garner attention that way. You'd be exposing the topic to the target community while at the same time remaining compliant with the rules. At least, if I am correct in my assumption on how it would all work out.

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#23
WarriorFish

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It's a good point, where is the line drawn? I'm not sure yet, but it seems reasonable that if the filthy xenos are to be allowed as allied talk then it is as the half-wit lackeys to a B&C appropriate primary force to be discussed in the Tactica and Army List forums as part of a specific list/idea.

 

The rest of the forum should only refer to them by the manner of how best to destroy them, how much we dislike them or swapping tips on how to get the xeno blood off your power armour!


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#24
Bryan Blaire

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Allies and what to do with them?

That has been the question the staff has been pondering over for well over a month at this point. The B&C has an identity and while that identity has changed slightly over the years, we are still largely power armor focused (daemons and admech being the exceptions).

Initially when the B&C started we had 7 forums:

Amicus
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Ultramarines
Chaos
Liber Astartes

In time we added Black Templar, Sisters of Battle (Inquisition) and Index Astartes because they were all power armor related. Even the inquisition had HQ units that could wear power armor.

For a brief time we even had Lost and the Damned but they went the way of the do-do when the V3 Chaos Codex was replaced. Each time we always asked the questions: Does it help or hinder the board to add/remove this? Does it change our identity and mission? If the answers were hinder and yes to changing the identity we left it alone. Admech was our caveat to this initially because they weren’t represented anywhere on the web really (Sisters were in that same boat for a time as well). Eventually the Daemons joined this as we felt even though they are not power armor they are integral to Chaos.

So had our identity changed for the worse? Better?

People still came to the site in growing numbers and for the most part things kept on smooth as before. Did we lose people because of it? Maybe but we gained as many as we lost (many more gained in fact).

In recent years Forge World has muddy the waters with things like the Siege of Vraks and the Tyrant’s Legion. Yes there are some power elements to those armies but they aren’t power armor armies. They are a guard cupcake with power armor sprinkles on top. So again we asked those questions and decided to stand our ground and not allow those lists on the site. A very small number of people complained (less than 10) to us and in the end we don’t think it has hurt the site.

Now, though, GW has muddied the waters a great deal with the allies rules. So how do we treat this? In past editions with allies we simply said “no power armor so it isn’t allowed” and left it at that. The small vocal groups were upset at first but it didn’t take long for folks to get back to power armor talk without much fuss.

Do we keep that tack here or alter course some? Through the discussions one thing was adamant from all: no xenos, ever on the B&C.

Adding Imperial Guard (thereby becoming an “armies of humanity” board), the continuation of the AdMech forum, whether or not to keep Chaos Marines and Daemons (becoming Imperium only)- these were all discussed as well. In the end it was decided to hold fast to our identity and remain a power armor board.

HOWEVER this does not mean we won’t let you discuss your allies. You will be restricted to where you can discuss them, though. If your army list is 2 armies currently covered by the B&C as allies then you can discuss them wherever it is appropriate for that. But if your allies list contains armies we do not cover (i.e. xenos and Imperial Guard) then your lists and how best to use your non power armor allies will be restricted to the Tactica and Army List forums. Obviously full xenos and IG armies won’t be allowed at all. Nor will a xenos/IG army with Marines/Sisters/Chaos as allies. Because lets be honest, if you are allying with vile xenos then your Chapter should be hunted down, destroyed and the ashes used to salt the earth.

A quick example: If you have an Ultramarine army allied with Blood Angels, you can discuss in the UM forum or even the BA forum, Tactica, Army list or where ever the info needed can be obtained.However your Blood Angel army bro-fisting Necrons can only be discussed in the Tactica or Army list areas. Not in the Blood Angels forum and you certainly cannot post your Necron models on the site.

We’ll give this a go for a few months and if things are running smoothly leave it be. If things are not running smoothly then we’ll change them as we deem necessary.

So far as I know, none of this has changed. The rules are pretty clear. If you think that some of this is being violated, please use the Report button so that the Mod team knows to take a look and can discuss and respond appropriately.

Just like previously, if you want the Admins to look at something: Contacting the B&C

You can also send a request for the Admins and Mods to discuss something by using the Private Message function, but realize that it may take some time to get back to you this way.

Edit: Re-opened for further discussion, keep it within the bounds of the rules

Edited by Bryan Blaire, 04 December 2013 - 08:06 PM.

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#25
Disruptor_fe404

Disruptor_fe404

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Codex: Inquisition and Formations have really blown apart the notion of single race armies.

 

I'd just like to say that this is hyperbole at best, and sensationalism at worst. Neither of those things has 'blown apart' the single-Codex army. What they have done is open the door on a new age of versatility and variety.

 

My stance on the issue notwithstanding, I do agree that the topic is worth discussing.

 

And for the record, my stance on the issue is that they are fine where they are, though I wouldn't mind a bit more leniency in where people are allowed to suggest and discuss non-human allies (but I still want them to primarily stay in the Tactica and Army List subfora). Definitely do not want them in the PC&A or HoA fora, but I have less rational arguments for those so I won't state them.


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