MorgothNL Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Hi everyone, I'm in the process of collecting an Emperor's Children army from FW. I have played with a list I made twice yesterday, but I used 40k rules and the normal space marine codex with ultramarines CT. The list was very good, but the fact I was playing ultramarines gnawed at me.. so I'm looking to build a real 30K EC list (will still be playing 40k opponents) I already have some idea of what I want in the list, and I have painted some models as well (so they should certainly be in the list). The models I have: 15 Infantry models (magnetised weapons so they can be tacticals, veterans or tactical support) 5 Palantine Blade Squad (Im fine with running these as palantine, veterans, command squad or even normal tacticals) 2 Contemptor Dreadnoughts (4x kheres assault cannons, 2x auto cannons) 2 Drop Pods (don't have to be in the list, and probably won't be in the 30k list) I want to include for sure: Javelin attack speeder (1 or 2) Phoenix Guard Terminators (not mandatory but would really like to include them) Some more terminators. So... with all of this in mind, the list starts building itself on it's own. This is what I came up with, and I would like to get some advice and reviews from you people.. to see if I can make it a bit better and wether or not it will be able to stand up against 40k armies at all (mostly Tau, SM, SW, Eldar, Nids) HQ: 1 Praetor (Paragon Blade, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo) 160pts TROOPS: 10 Legion Tactical Squad 150pts 10 Legion Tactical Squad 150pts ELITES: 5 Cataphractii Terminators (Reaper Autocannon, Chainfist, Sword, Axe, Lightning Claw 2x, Volkite 4x) 238pts 5 Phoenix Guard Terminators (Grenade Harness) 275pts 1 Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought (Kheres 2x) 180pts 1 Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought (Autocannon 2x) 165pts FAST ATTACK: 1 Javelin Attack Speeder (MM, Searchlight) 86pts 1 Storm Eagle 210pts HEAVY SUPPORT: 5 Heavy Support Squad (missile Launchers) 160 FORTIFICATION: 1 Skyshield Landing Pad (ready for take-off) 1849pts total Going to 2000pts I would add another Speeder and add additional terminators/tacticals to the existing squads. Or perhaps take one tactical squad up to 20 man + apothecary. I like fluffy lists, which is why I'm going for the phoenix guard, speeder and eagle. Do you think this list has any chance vs the likes of SM, Nids and Tau? Please feel free to suggest what kind of list you would build with the models I already have + at least 1 speeder, some sort of terminators and at least some kind of assault aspect to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Araghast Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Hi there. From the fluff point i think phoenix guard was always traitors, non of them chose loyal side. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted December 28, 2013 Author Share Posted December 28, 2013 Hi there. From the fluff point i think phoenix guard was always traitors, non of them chose loyal side. Good luck. Thank you very much for that note. I think you are right., would be weird to except something else from Fulgrims bodyguard. I might swap them for some more normal terminators, and use the Palantine Blade squad I have for the assault part (although they are much less powerful, and I may need to find something else). Originally what I meant with 'loyalist' is that I did not want to include models that did not even belong to EC pre-istavan (like the kakaphoni and, in my eyes, eidolon). But you are right to consider phoenix guard and ,of course fulgrim, traitors as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I think you're desperately short on troops for an army this large, and the troops that you do have are not going to contribute much of anything to the fight - aside from maybe soaking a little bit of shooting before they're wiped out or run off the board. Emphasis on a little bit. It's not terribly hard to knock off a 10 man squad of footslogging marines. Or just ignore them, if they're out of position. With the assault-oriented army you want and the emphasis on terminators, I think you might just want to go Pride of the Legion. Your terminators (and Phoenix Guard) are already scoring thanks to Implacable Advance, but with Pride of the Legion the terminators will become a troops choice, as well as Veteran Tacticals. The Veteran Tacticals are actually quite assault-oriented, given that each marine has two attacks base plus BP/CCW plus options for special CCWs plus some helpful USRs. Downside is that There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - you're paying for all of that. A single Storm Eagle against Tau is probably just wasted points. Their easy access to massed S7 fire and Skyfire is going to bring that down the turn after you take off from the Sky Shield. Nids are hard to quantify right now, they're about to get a new codex within the next month or so. Marines may or may not have trouble bringing down the Storm Eagle, it entirely depends on what kind of list they're bringing. I don't think a MM on the Javelin is the right choice, to get into melta range with it you're basically going to sacrifice the speeder. I think Javelins are too expensive to be used sacrificially. You have two seperate terminator squads, but only transportation for one of them - transportation that actually still has room in it. Legion Praetor -Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Digital Weapons, Pride of the Legion 160 Centurion -Legion Champion, Mastercrafted Phoenix Lance, Cataphractii Armor 125 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin Kheres 180 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin Autocannons 165 Veteran Tactical Squad -10 Members, Meltagun, Plasmagun, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword, Rhino 285 Veteran Tactical Squad -10 Members, Meltagun, Plasmagun, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword, Rhino 285 Terminator Squad -Cataphractii Armor, 40 points of weapon upgrades 215 Javelin Attack Speeder -Twin-linked lascannon 85 Spartan -Aux Drive, Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield 350 This list is more of a suggestion than anything final. The Legion Champion is entirely superfluous, I just included him because he seemed really fluffy for ECs. You could actually drop him but still sorta include a semi-champion with Phoenix Lance if you just give the Phoenix Lance to the Terminator Sergeant (EC characters can take a Phoenix Lance for the same point cost as a power fist). The points freed up there could be used on more terminators. I specced a Spartan for this because it's going to be a tough and reliable delivery system for your Praetor and Terminators. The weapon loadout on the Veteran Tacticals is also more placeholder than anything else. A little meltagun for anti-tank, a little plasma for anti MC, a kitted up sergeant for winning some challenges. The sergeants here could also have a phoenix lance for a small points increase, but I thought it was cooler to reserve it for the champion. Definitely more effective if they have it, though. Hard to say no to striking at initiative with AP2, even if it's only on the turn you charge. Double contemptor-mortis is probably more anti-air than you need. Depends on your local meta. Since you already have the models, it makes sense to include them anyways. Their firepower and hardiness is a welcome addition. If you want to go a bit more blobby, you could drop the rhinos, use normal 15-20 man tactical squads instead of veteran tacticals, drop the praetor and keep the champion, maybe mix in some apothecaries. If you want to stay assault oriented, you can give the tacticals bolter/bolt pistol/ccw (AA and a special CCW on the sergeants for challenges). With the crusade USR, a big blob, and FNP, you should be able to get where you need to go and still have some hurt to deliver when you get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 there are 4 Elites in the original list at 1850 pts. I don't have 'Betrayal' handy, but as far as I remember it's one too many below 2000 pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 there are 4 Elites in the original list at 1850 pts. I don't have 'Betrayal' handy, but as far as I remember it's one too many below 2000 pts. Betrayal recommends the use of the standard force org at 1500 and below, and the Age of Darkness force org at 1501-3000 (which includes an extra HQ and Elites slot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Ah, yes, I didn't remember that thershold, now I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted December 30, 2013 Author Share Posted December 30, 2013 Thank you for the very constructive and helpful post! I will go with most of what you said and change my list on mist fronts. Unfortunately I forgot to mention I also have 5 missile launcher models (which is my I included the heavy support squad in mine). Maybe I will switch one Mortis to an assault orientated dread, since the heavy support squad will take care of the firepower. To do this I will most likely need to drop a hq for the points. I've been struggling between 15-20 tacticals or 10 veterans for quite some weeks, and still not sure which one will work best for my list. How do you suggest I equip the terminators? Claws and axes and don't bother with volkites/autocannon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Hrm. Well, this idea might help with some of those questions. Centurion -Legion Champion, Cataphractii Armor, Master-Crafted Phoenix Lance 125 Terminator Squad -5 Members, 4 Combiplasma, 1 Plasma Blaster, 5 Power Axes 218 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin Autocannons 165 Apothecarion -2 Apothecaries 90 Tactical Squad -15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword 230 Tactical Squad -15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword 230 Javelin Attack Speeder -TLLC 85 Spartan -Aux Drive, Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield, Lasdestroyers 350 Heavy Support -5 Members, 5 Missile Launchers 160 1653 If you decide to go with the tactical blobs instead of vet squads/pride of the legion, then IMO you can drop the Praetor. Or keep him, if you prefer. My personal opinion is that Praetors are too expensive and too single-faceted (all they really do is beat things up in assault - a centurion can be any number of things through the Consul rules, and a lot of them buff your other units in some way - the legion champion is actually the most selfish of them, and I don't like him for that reason. but champions are fluffy for ECs). If I don't need him for a rite of war, I like to leave Praetors out of my lists. The Palatine Blade models you already have would make awesome sergeants in your tactical squads, so I've dressed them up with power swords and artificer armor to reflect the models. Legion Vexillas and Apothecaries for tactical blobs help keep them around. The above terminator squad is just what I think is a good load out for terminators - for how I use them. It may not be right for how you like to use them. I like to send them after a priority target (say, an enemy squad of terminators or MC or something) and gun it down with plasma before charging in to finish the job in melee. If their target isn't available, I try to keep them safe and sound inside their transport while I work on cracking open the enemy's transport or getting into position. Power Axes are great, maybe a little too crude for fluffy ECs, but they are cheap (free!) and S+1 and AP2. If you want to add a chainfist in the squad for some anti-tank punch, maybe a thunderhammer or something on the sergeant, a couple points here and there isn't bad to give them a little more versatility and strength isn't too bad. But going all out for thunderhammer and combiweapon on all of them is going to eat a ton of points. I'm not a big fan of the volkites or twin lightning claw options. This list has 197 points left before it hits 1850, and it'd be entirely up to you what to fill that with. More tacticals, more terminators, your other contemptor, a second HQ (chaplain in cataphractii with a sword-shaped crozius to give your terminators Zealot? a primus medicae in terminator to give them FNP? a naked forge lord to keep your spartan repaired?), a second javelin, different weapons on the contemptor-mortis that's already in the list, a support weapon squad with a rhino to move them around, a sicaran, more missile launcher guys... the possibilities are pretty much endless. If you know your Tau friend isn't going to bring a whole lot of anti-air every game and you think you can get away with it, you can go back to the Storm Eagle with the landing pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted December 30, 2013 Author Share Posted December 30, 2013 Thank you again.. I'm almost amazed by the amount of work you're putting into helping me out. I have a 1750 game this Sunday, which will be a great opportunity to test the last list you posted (with some adjustments I might make). I'm very afraid of losing the spartan with contents in the first turn vs tau (tank hunter hammerhead), but against the space wolves I'll face Sunday, it should do great (and against anything else that isn't tau). I will post my 1750 and 1850 list later for you to review and comment. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Don't forget EC have the martial pride rule so an IC can really benefit from screamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted December 30, 2013 Author Share Posted December 30, 2013 Don't forget EC have the martial pride rule so an IC can really benefit from screamers Thank you, I did give my Champion one :). So.. This is my list as it stands. It is very close to what kitwulfen posted in his last post, with a few small changes: Centurion -Legion Champion, Cataphractii Armor, Master-Crafted Phoenix Lance, Sonic Shrieker 130 Terminator Squad -5 Members, 4 Combiplasma, 1 Plasma Blaster, 5 Power Axes 218 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin Kheres Assault Cannon 180 Apothecarion -2 Apothecaries 90 Tactical Squad -15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword 230 Tactical Squad -15 Members, Legion Vexilla, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword 230 Javelin Attack Speeder -TLLC, Seachlight 86 Javelin Attack Speeder -TLLC, Searchlight 86 Spartan -Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield, Laser destroyers 340 Heavy Support -5 Members, 5 Missile Launchers 160 1750 So that is the list for the 1750pts game on sunday. Should I take bolters or pistol+cc weapon on the tactical squads? Going to 1850 I will add: - Chainfist 1x for the terminators - Bolters/CC weapons for 1 tactical squad (so 1 squad will have bolter + pistol + cc weapon) - Apothecary + artificer armour - Melta bomb on 1 Sergeant (just cause I had the points left) And going for 2000pts I would: Add a Mortis Contemptor (autocannon) 165pts and to makes this happen, I will remove the chainfist on the terminator and the melta bomb on the tactical sergeant. How do you guys think this looks? (I like they way I was able to just add stuff when going for higher points. I will just be able to buy the extra model/models without having to shelf ones I already have). I'm not sure if I should be running bolters or combat weapons on the tacticals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Bolters would be my preference. Given that you are footslogging with them, I think the extra range is important, and with fury of the legion you can be unloading 30 shots with each squad at 24 inches if necessary (or saving the Fury for 12 inches, but still hitting at 24). Well, actually, 28 shots, since the sergeants are running with power sword/bolt pistol. You could do powersword/bolter on them if you'd prefer, though. The Kheres-armed Contemptor-Mortis definitely brings the most dakka, but I worry about the short range of it when it's the only anti-air in a list. Considering that it has to stand still to fire, you may not get interceptor shots on flyers as they come in because you were still moving into position - or the flyer just comes in on the other side of the board. I prefer lascannons when I can find the points (I like their mix of range, performance against AV12 flyers, utility as another anti-AV14 tool, and their ability to punch through the armor of FMCs). If I had to choose between autocannons and Kheres, I like autocannons. They still perform reasonably well against AV12 flyers, they can get some grounding tests done on FMCs even if they can't pierce its armor, though they lose their anti-AV14 utility. The important thing, in my mind, is that they can get interceptor over the entire board, ensuring that I get first hits on an incoming flyer before that flyer takes out my only anti-air. Some shots is better than no shots. If you downgrade to autocannons, you could spend the extra points on a chainfist for your terminator squad aaaand... 5 points somewhere. Dunno. If you want to afford the Lascannons, you could drop the sonic shrieker off your HQ for the 1750 list and add it back in later. Alternately, you can drop one (or both) of your Javelins down to CMLs instead of TLLC. The points from that could pay for weapon upgrades on the terminators and the lascannons for the Contemptor. You might also try another Javelin loadout that I kinda like but haven't seen tried - just go for the CML on one of them, but give it two Hunter-Killer missiles. I'm normally not a fan of HKs, but in this case it provides a pretty mean alpha strike of 4 krak missiles. Same price as the TLLC variant. Fielding both in the same game could let you compare and contrast them, see how each performs and which you like better. Otherwise, just make sure your Spartan is doing something. SItting still with that many points isn't going to do you any favors. If you have to park it out of LoS for a turn while you nail the enemy's anti-tank, that's all well and good, but you've got 700 points riding in there. You cannot afford to play 700 points down for half the game. If your opponent doesn't bring any lascannons, laugh hysterically and just go throw yourself a Spartan party on his side of the board. The Flare Shield will turn Demolisher cannons and lascannons into glances-on-6 from the front, and the same for any meltaguns - that hit from the side or rear. Just be wary of any jerks getting into melee with it with meltabombs/chainfist/DCCW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Thank you once again. For the 1750 list I changed the mortis dread to TL LC. I decided to keep the sonic shrieker on the champion, and create the points for the lascannons by changing 1 speeder from lascannons to CML with 1 HKM. The 1850 list has the same change as before, only will I now spend the 5 points I had left on an extra HKM for the speeder (in stead of the meltabomb on a serg) The 2000 list sees an mortis added. They will then run kheres and autocannon. The LC speeder will get a HKM as well. I am especially curious on how the terminators + champion + spartan will do. Tau will be the hardest to play against. They have a very good change of destroying the spartan turn 1 or 2. And like you said, I can not have the spartan + loadout sit back the whole game.. so in some cases it may be better to move forward in the shooting phase and not fire the destroyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 I've decided to make room for a squad of 5 Phoenix Guard (replacing the current terminators). The axes I had on terminators just bugged me (fluff point of view) and the Phoenix Guard are just to iconic for EC (not cooler than cataphractii but more EC). Besides this, the Cataphractii would cost me 86.24 pounds to get them WYSIWYG and still 68.32 if I don't bother with the 2 extra combi-plasma's. Since I will not be adding more terminators below 2000pts, I think it is a waste to have 20 pounds of weapons just leftover. The phoenix guard are much more affordable at 45 pounds. Does anyone have any experience running with phoenix guard? I have them in the spartan with the champion, so I hope to get them where and when I want them. I will be facing 1750pts Clan Raukaan sunday. I know his whole list, but I will not make changes to mine because of it. He will be running 4 Dreads (3 venerable) and 2 vindicators.. so it will be a good test to see if I have enough anti-armour. I will be focussing on the vindicators first, because their shots will make my apothecaries useless. On a unrelated topic, I think those Deathshroud terminators of the deathguard are insanely cheap pointswise (or phoenix guard expensive?). Those guys cost 210 points for 5 models with 2! wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I think the extra point cost for the Phoenix Guard is largely due to them having Stubborn. Without ATSKNF and with the generally lower leadership values in the Legion list, things like stubborn and fearless command a premium price (especially compared to what you would pay for them in 40k). I can also totally understand preferring a model or list for its monetary price instead of just point prices, and the terminator loadout I recommended is, again, just my preference on how to use them. With the advantage that the Phoenix Spears offer (in combination with Sonic Shriekers and Sudden Strike) you have a strong chance at winning any assault against other terminators before the enemy even has a chance to strike. Good luck in your upcoming game. That's a lot of armor to deal with, but the good news is that your Spartan will shrug off any demolisher cannon blasts from the front and could conceivably kill both Vindicators in one turn with its lasdestroyers. If you're lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 So, I won the battle sunday, but wasn't completely happy with the army. The battle was kind of weird. Turn 1 - I had first turn. My spartan exploded 2 razorbacks. My missile launchers removed the lascannon of another razorback and 1 glance. The speeders immobilised 1 vindicator. The marine blobs move forward. - In his turn my opponent shot 1 of my speeders with a quad gun. (4 hits -> 3 glances + 1 pen -> 2 jink saves passed -> wrecked). One of his dual autocannon venerable dread shot the other speeder (4 hits -> 3 glances -> 1 jink save made -> wrecked). 2 other venerable dreads (ML/autocannon) shot my contemptor (1 pen + 1 glance -> removed glance with 5++ save -> pen became a exploded result). He was playing Clan Raukaan btw. He repaired his lascannon on the razorback and restored a hull point (it will not die). Turn 2 - My spartan removed destoryed another 2 razorbacks (no more lascannons left in my opponent force). My missile launchers shook a dread. Since I lost the contemptor and speeders, all I could do was move the marines forward. - My opponent now had no way of actually killing my spartan, unless with lots of lucky rolls to glance, so he aimed everything at the marines and missile launchers. All missile launchers died, and I lost about 4 marines. Turn 3 -My spartan was now the only anti-tank I had left, and he still had 4 dreads and 2 vindicators to deal with. The spartan immobilised 1 vindicator, my phoenix guard jumped out and assaulted 2 combat squads (7 man total left in those squads. I was hoping to leave 1 alive so I would be locked in combat in his turn, and be free in mine to murder behind his lines). Just his sergeant survived (challenge vs my centurion) so it paid out well. - His dreads shot a 2 or 3 marines,1 dread moved towards my phoenix guard, and 2 dread toward the relic on the middle of the table (my marines were about 5 inch away from the relic now) Turn 4 - The spartan whiffed on both shots (trying to kill the dread moving to the phoenix guard). 1 marine blob moved into contact with the relic (13 left in this blob). The other blob stayed close as backup. The centurion failed to kill the sergeant.. and since they had to be in a challenge, the phoenix guard stood by and waved (yes I used the reroll for them). - His 2 dreads shot and assaulted my marine blob that had the relic. The other dread assaulted my phoenix guard. From this point on, the whole game reached a standstill. My phoenix guard + centurion would remain in battle with the dread for the rest of the game. I could not leave this battle, because the krak grenade on the centurion could hurt the dread (so 'our weapons are useless' could not be used?). Either way, his dread had no cc weapon, so failed to kill anyone during the rest of the battle (so I could no even run away even if I wanted). The 2 dreads vs my marine blob would also remain in battle for the rest of the 3 turns. End the end of turn 7 I wrecked 1, and the other was down to his last hull point. I lost about 4 marines. My spartan just kept shooting vindicators, even though nothing really mattered anymore (since the fights with the dread would never end and those were game determining). The game ended after turn 7. I had first blood, linebreaker with the phoenix guard, and the relic. He had nothing. So I won without any problem, but I did not really like the way my list played. The speeders are just too venerable (2 hull point is nothing, they are dead as soon as the opponent wants them to be gone). The blobs of marines were not fun to play, all they do is advance up slowly but surely, and camp on an objective somewhere halfway the table, no combat squads or special weapons makes them kind of boring. The phoenix guard terminators were quite the disappointment. It took them 3 assault phases to kill 8 marines. Because it took so long for them to kill the enemy, a silly venerable dread joined the combat and that was it. There was some bad rolling on my side, but it did make me realise that the phoenix guard have a good first round of combat, but after this, perform less then mediocre (lack of attacks, initiative and better weapon skill). When you do the math, you'll also come to the conclusion that they will lose vs TH/SS terminators (which are 65 points cheaper). I've decided to remove the 2 speeders from my 1750 list for now, and put in the 2nd contemptor I have. (will save me 104 pounds for the moment until I figure out what direction I want my list to go). I'm looking to get more variation in my list, even if it loses a bit of it's strength in the process. Did we play the fight of the phoenix guard vs the dread correctly? Is it correct that all models had to stay in the never ending combat just because the centurion has a krak grenade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I do not think the fight between the Centurion/Dreadnoughts played out correctly, but not for the reason you think. In the lists we've discussed, the Centurion has been specced with Cataphractii armor. When taking any kind of TDA, the Centurion loses his krak grenades. If you fielded him with TDA, he did not have any grenades to use (likewise, a Centurion or Praetor in TDA cannot take meltabombs - that's an artificer/power armor only option). Marine blobs is not for everyone. Use only as directed, consult your doctor if you have a battle lasting more than four hours. It's good to find these things out when playtesting, though. Maybe you would prefer a Pride of the Legion list with the Veteran Tacticals? They could field the special weapons you are looking for. Sorry to hear that the performance of the Phoenix Guard was underwhelming. Yeah, TH/SS terminators are better, but you have to understand that these are balanced for fighting in 30k. They are paying a premium for their Phoenix Lances and for Stubborn. To get TH/SS terminators in 30k, you have go to Salamanders, field Cataphractii armor, and pay 250 points for a squad of 5 with Thunderhammers and Dragonscale Storm Shields - and unlike 40k terminators, they cannot Run or Deep Strike. TH/SS have gone up in price in 40k with the new marine dex. They are now 225 points for a squad of 5, so only 40 points less expensive than your Phoenix Guard. I'm not really surprised that your speeders blew up. They are basically razorbacks with TLLC that fly. And have one fewer hull point. The loss of your contemptor so early was also quite surprising, just a bit of bad luck - or good luck on your opponent's part. As things go, I am not sure that killing the Razorbacks first was the right choice. I dunno if they were threatening to flank your spartan or if there was an immediate need to do so, but your Spartan is just as immune to them from the front as it is immune to the Vindicators. Lascannon or Demolisher, either will hit at S8 AP2 when fired through your flare shield. In this, I think the better target may have been the Vindicators first to make sure they can't drop blasts on your marines, or killing dreadnoughts. So long as the razorbacks were content to sit back and focus their attention on the front of your Spartan, why bother with them? They need 6's to glance. Maybe if they get your Spartan down to 3 hull points you can swat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmashoo Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 try out the pride of the legion= drop the marine blobs and heavy support squap for: 2x10 veteran with 2xsuspensor-web missilelaunchers drop the speeders for: the second dread and upgrade the centurion to a praetor be aware uve get now 15 marines less...... aka something like this Praetor -iron halo -paragon blade -melta bomb -digi 170 Pheonix Terminator 265 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin las-cannon 185 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin kheres 180 Apothecarion -2 Apothecaries 90 10 Veteren Tactical Squad -legio vexilla -2xmissile launcher & suspensor web 260 10 Veteren Tactical Squad -legio vexilla -2xmissile launcher & suspensor web 260 Spartan -Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield, Laser destroyers 340 1750 (downgrade mortis contemtor to a normal contemptor with 1 kheres and fist and add cc weapons to veterens) 1850 give the veterans rhinos and more quip to the praetor 2000 points maybe add another veteran squad hope this gives ur boring bolter marines some better use.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Two issues with that list, Blackmashoo. 1: The third apothecary cannot be assigned to the Phoenix squad. 2: The nuncio-voxii have no purpose. There are no deep strikers or barrage weapons in this list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmashoo Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 edited the third apothecary away alrdy (was going with 3 veteran squads at first) noncio-voxii will save 20 points -->1735+digi-laser for praetor=1750 edited everything now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Alright Morgoth, I've also got a new list for you, using some of the things you relayed in your battle report and said in the thread. Praetor -Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, Pride of the Legion 160 Contemptor-Mortis -Twin TLLC 185 Apothecarion -3 Apothecaries 120 Legion Terminator Squad -Cataphractii Armor, 4 Power Fists, 1 Power Sword 195 Veteran Tactical Squad -10 Members, 2 Missile Launchers with Suspensor Web 250 Veteran Tactical Squad -10 Members, 2 Plasmaguns, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword 250 Veteran Tactical Squad -10 Members, 2 Plasmaguns, Sergeant with Artificer Armor and Power Sword 250 Spartan -Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield, Laser Destroyers 340 1750 points So, we've dropped the Javelins you thought were too fragile. Instead of the Phoenix Guard, whose melee performance you were unsatisfied with, we went back to a standard terminator squad. I've chosen a weapon loadout that is maybe not ideal, but is cheap - you can buy that exact weapon pack and the Cataphractii squad for just 45 GBP. No leftover weapons or broken budgets. The TLLC Contemptor-Mortis, cause it's just good. Spartan, whose performance I think you were pleased with. And Veteran Squads with special weapons. Instead of Rhinos, we have an apothecary for each squad. They're nearly the same price, both make the squad a little harder to kill. You could drop the Apothecaries and grab three Rhinos instead, and spread out 15 points of wargear somewhere. I think the Apothecaries will be more helpful if you get into melee, where these Vet Squads will be really rough (3 attacks per model, 4 on the charge!). I normally swear by Vexillas, but you could potentially leave them out - the two plasmagun squads could take Fearless, while the missile launcher squad takes Tank Hunters or Sniper (depending on if there are any tanks to blap). If you want, you could pick one of the Veteran Squads to drop (you do have four troops choices here), then drop an Apothecary. That frees up 290 points. From that, you could spend 180 bringing in your second Contemptor with dual Kheres, and the remaining 110 could pay for a Primus Medicae (for the Terminator Squad), additional terminators, and/or more wargear for your Praetor and Veterans (maybe a couple power weapons, meltabombs, vexilla, etc?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thank you all for the lists and comments. I do not think the fight between the Centurion/Dreadnoughts played out correctly, but not for the reason you think. In the lists we've discussed, the Centurion has been specced with Cataphractii armor. When taking any kind of TDA, the Centurion loses his krak grenades. If you fielded him with TDA, he did not have any grenades to use (likewise, a Centurion or Praetor in TDA cannot take meltabombs - that's an artificer/power armor only option). Yes fight with the dread did go down wrong because of the terminator armour. I was using a proxy which had artificer armour, which is why I made this mistake. Still wondering though.. if you have a squad of 20 marines and 1 IC, is it true that the whole squad will be doing nothing the rest of the game if only the IC can do something on a roll of 6 many turns i a row? I think I will be going for pride of the legion like you both suggested. It fits better with my view of how I want a army to play. Using missile launchers in veteran squads, makes sure the missile launcher wont die as fast as they did when I fielded them in a heavy support group. And the webs make sure they are still kind of mobile. I will post my new list soon, it looks like its going to be a hybrid of the 2 lists you guys posted. I will be facing 30k iron hands this friday, so that might be a good opportunity to try out a new list (and give the phoenix guard a 2nd chance?). Though I'm also keen on trying out my new eldar list, but I could be facing Tau in the evening, so maybe I can go 30K IH vs 30K EC and eldar vs tau. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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