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Salamanders and "you know too much!"

- - - - - Salamanders Inquisition Grey Knights

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#1
Knight of the Raven

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I once played a Campaign game with some people down at the local gaming store, and after two weeks of fighting back Chaos and Xenos scum, the Grey Knights and Dark Angels player decide that my IG 'Had seen too much' and decided to wrap up the campaign by 'purging those who knew too much'. I thought I was [redacted], until the Store owner slams down 25-hundread points of Salamanders on the table and says: "Uh, [redacted] that [redacted]."

That comment on a deviantART picture led me to wonder; have the Salamanders ever told off the Inquisition or the Grey Knights in the same fashion as Logan Grimnar to save imperial citizens and soldiers they deemed innocent? If not, would they? I know they intimidated Marines Malevolent into relinquishing stolen equipment and beat up one of their captains, but confronting an undersupplied nobody chapter from an unknown founding isn't the same as comeatmebroing the Inquisition or the Grey Knights.

 

N.B. I know the Inquisition isn't unified.


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#2
Komrk

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The Salamanders go out of their way to protect humans so I wouldn't be surprised if they stood up to the Inquisition or GK or DA at all


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#3
Eternal Warrior

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Their greatest trait. Why I am returning to them. In a universe full of uncaring demigods they stand bastion. Defending those incapable of defending themselves. They stoke the fires of vengeance against those who seek to harm the defenseless. They are their champion.
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#4
Excubitor

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The Space Wolves, despite their great reputation, are not noted for going out of their way to save human lives. The Salamanders are.

 

I could imagine the Salamanders ignoring such an act and quietly letting it happen...over their cold, dead corpses.

 

As with the Space Wolves, the Salamander are an ancient, influential Chapter. They are master artisans, forged on the anvil of war, sons of Vulkan. The power they wield goes beyond mere Chapter strength.

 

Without serious, well-backed charges against the Salamanders, not even the Inquisition or the Grey Knights would dare challenge conflict with them. It would make the Badab conflict look insignificant.

 

I know they intimidated Marines Malevolent into relinquishing stolen
equipment and beat up one of their captains, but confronting an
undersupplied nobody chapter from an unknown founding isn't the same as
comeatmebroing the Inquisition or the Grey Knights.

They didn't intimidate the MM with force, they didn't need to - their reputation intimidated them. The Salamanders are known as one of the greatest Chapters, with a fearsome reputation in war, for a censored.gif good reason.

 

A better question is - would the Grey Knights or Inquisition challenge the Salamanders if they chose to protect citizens from them? Would they risk conflict with them? If these citizens were truly beyond saving, were truly corrupted, the Salamanders would likely deem it a mercy to end them early and would not stand in their way. But if they were innocent, they would try to save them. Anyone who knows the Salamanders would pause at this and think it over.

 

Would the Grey Knights and Inquisition risk conflict against the Salamanders for this? They wouldn't dare.


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#5
Aegnor

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Some did dare against the Space Wolves who are at least as renowned across the Imperium and connected. It's quite possible a particularly fanatical Inquisitor with sufficient favours in the right quarters might be prepared to take on the Salamanders.

The Grey Knights are extremists who don't compromise on stuff like potential daemonic contamination. If they feared the civilians the Salamanders were protecting had seen things that had contaminated them, hell yes they'd insist, at gunpoint if need be, on purging them. The GKs are definite practitioners of the attitude that it's better to be on the safe side - if any doubt exists, purge them all and let the Emperor sort them out.

Edited by Aegnor, 24 February 2014 - 10:21 AM.

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WIP - Salamanders and other randomsIt's not more guns or tactics this army needs, it's Thunder Hammers, and lots of them!

#6
Excubitor

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Yes, they might force the point, but would they take it further? Would they initiate a conflict with the Salamanders?

 

I agree, some particularly idiotic Inquisitors might try and punish the Chapter, but the Inquisition as a group? Would the Grey Knights risk open warfare with a Chapter like the Salamanders?

 

Remember, the Salamanders are, more than anything, practical. If you give them a logical reason, a valid concern, they will listen. If, after this talk, they still stood against it, I'd bet more on the Salamanders being right then the extremists. For all their extremism, the Grey Knights are also practical. They deal with Xenos, in the defence against Chaos, and use daemon weapons against Chaos. I think that between them and the Salamanders, a solution could be found that would leave both parties....content, if not happy.

 

For example, after a major chaos outbreak on a planet, the Salamander, Inquisition, and GK defeat it and discuss what will happen now. Inquisition wants to cull the planets population, like they did on Armageddon. The GK are happy with this. The Salamanders say NO. The GK are willing to go as far as cull those who fought on the tainted ground and purify the cities affected, but leave the other, untainted cities alone with a psychic mind-wipe of sorts on the citizens. While the Salamanders are not totally happy with such a sacrifice, they would see it as the best compromise to prevent further bloodshed of the truly innocent. The Inquisition might be annoyed, but with both the GK and Salamanders in agreement concedes.

 

Not sure if I'm getting my view across clearly, but I hope so.


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By our Blood and Blade His Will be Done!

#7
Wade Garrett

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Any argument that relies on "The Inquisition and the Grey Knights wouldn't dare" for its premise is a bad argument.

The whole point of those two organizations is that they dare. They dare A LOT.

It doesn't matter if you're the Space Wolves, Salamanders, the Blood Angels, or the Ultramarines (right, Captain Titus?), if you come between the Inquisition and its prey, worlds will burn.
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#8
Eternal Warrior

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I view the inquisition as the most terrible government agency in history. They will create conflict where there is none for the sake of having something to do in a decade. The pinnacle of government waste.
"Vengeance is it's own reward! We do not tire, we do not forgive. Retribution shall be ours!" ~ Iron Father Lokir

#9
Brother Darklight

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I once played a Campaign game with some people down at the local gaming store, and after two weeks of fighting back Chaos and Xenos scum, the Grey Knights and Dark Angels player decide that my IG 'Had seen too much' and decided to wrap up the campaign by 'purging those who knew too much'. I thought I was [redacted], until the Store owner slams down 25-hundread points of Salamanders on the table and says: "Uh, [redacted] that [redacted]."



This is why I love this game... just sayin'


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#10
Knight of the Raven

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Any argument that relies on "The Inquisition and the Grey Knights wouldn't dare" for its premise is a bad argument.

The whole point of those two organizations is that they dare. They dare A LOT.

It doesn't matter if you're the Space Wolves, Salamanders, the Blood Angels, or the Ultramarines (right, Captain Titus?), if you come between the Inquisition and its prey, worlds will burn.

Especially when you consider that rumor that the suspiciously unrealistic destruction of the Crimson Fists' fortress was orchestrated by some inquisitior(s).

Thanks for the answers, everyone.


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#11
Excubitor

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I'm not getting my point across - my problem, can't find the right words. I'll try again.

 

I know the Inquisition and GK would dare a lot - the point in the OP is not that they wouldn't take on the Salamanders if they had (or thought they had) sufficient reason, it's if the Salamanders would pull a Space Wolf and protect citizens from them.

 

They couldn't ignore the Salamanders because, like the Space Wolves, they are a significantly influential and powerful Chapter. They would have to at the very least give them the courtesy of a hearing. Of giving the pretense of looking at other options.

 

Saying the Salamanders would not intervene because of the difference in confronting the Marines Malevolent compared to the Inquisition and GK is ludicrous. What I was trying to say is that, like the Space Wolves, any backlash from standing against them would be relatively minimal; sure, you might have a small group of Inquisitors get their underwear in a knot and try, but like with the Space Wolves you are attacking one of the most venerated, ancient, and powerful Chapters. Anything short of a full-scale Excommunicate Traitoris expunging would fail miserably, and getting that far would be incredibly unlikely due to their reputation. They wouldn't dare try wiping them out for such a relatively minor reason.

 

I hope this is a better presentation of what I think.


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#12
Bannus

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If I may be so bold:

 

I think what Ex is trying to say is that the Imperium is a very large place and the Inquisition can pretty much get away with anything without much scrutiny because this.

 

However, if the Sallies (or any other Chapter with similar disposition) were to "raise a stink" against the Inquisition in a situation that is justifiable (or "questionable" if you prefer), the Inquisition would likely back down because it would draw too much political heat against them and bring scrutiny that they would rather avoid.


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#13
walpurgisnacht

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That worked out pretty good for the Celestial Lions, didn't it?
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[I]Ahhhh, the children of the night...what music they make.

#14
Wade Garrett

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The Inquisition has attacked a First Founding Chapter for pulling stunts like that, the Space Wolves.

They brought the Grey Knights and the Red Hunters to bear on Fenris and the world "burned hotter than it ever did under the guns of Magnus the Red".

If they'll go to war with Logan Grimnar, they'll go to war with Vulkan He'stan.

"Better to die having exhausted one's strength than to fail without ever reaching your limits."

Perturabo, Primarch of the IV Legion "Warriors of Iron".


#15
Hellrender

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Especially since a lot of inquisitors, and others, think that the salamanders are mutants, much like the Space Wolves. Such superstition is easily flamed a bit brighter.



#16
hummus

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Im sure the minotaurs could be talked into it.


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#17
Excubitor

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The Inquisition has attacked a First Founding Chapter for pulling stunts like that, the Space Wolves.

They brought the Grey Knights and the Red Hunters to bear on Fenris and the world "burned hotter than it ever did under the guns of Magnus the Red".

If they'll go to war with Logan Grimnar, they'll go to war with Vulkan He'stan.

 

I know a fleet once attacked Fenris at the behest of an inquisitor, but I've never heard about the GK and Red Hunters being involved. Where did this happen?


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#18
Ashriel

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http://www.blacklibr...rs-gift-sb.html

 

and from the Lexicanum:

 

Months of Shame

 

The link was wrong, should be good now. needless to say it is full of spoilers for the book


Edited by Ashriel, 02 March 2014 - 07:42 AM.

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#19
Knight of the Raven

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I suspected The Emperor's Gift laid the consequences of challenging the Inquisition, but I never read it since neither Space Wolves nor Grey Knights interest me.

 

Maybe we'll see a conflict between the Salamanders and the more ruthless side of the Imperium in the future. Their space defenses are weaker than the Space Wolves as far as I know but the dictate of the status quo means they'll survive.

 

Minotaurs coming down on Nocturne... That would be amazing. I'd love to start this campaign if I had a gaming group.

 

Again, thanks for the answers and the interesting discussion.


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#20
Wade Garrett

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The Knights and Red Hunters attack Fenris as a consequence of Logan defying the Inquisition's purge of Armageddon after Angron's attack.

As has previously been said, this is detailed in The Emperor's Gift, which as an aside I would recommend as a good read regardless of your feelings about the GK or Wolves.

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#21
Excubitor

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Nocturne/Prometheus have significant defences - not quite as strong as the Fang perhaps, but still far beyond that of a normal planet. Remember, one of the Artifacts of Vulkan is a space defence laser of immense power.

 

Minotaurs attacking Nocturne by themselves would be tantamount to suicide.

 

Thanks for the links and info, I'll have to see if I can get it.

 

Although from the quick read of the wiki, it looks like the wolves suffered less overall than the GK/Inquistor forces, despite not engaging them directly for a significant period. I'll read the book once I get it and see if it changes my mind, though.

 

Wonder why Joros did what he did, though. And if it was really him or the Lord Inquisitor that ordered the attack.


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#22
Michael W

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So, I'm in on the Sallie love and all (about a hundred members of the 4th Company are painted and sitting in my display case), but it seems that perhaps this issue is being looked at a little arrogantly.  While I appreciate that the Salamanders could perhaps cause the Inquisition to pause, I don't think that they would.  Unlike the Space Puppies, who have no sense of tact and no respect for outside hierarchy, the Sallies have a high level of both, and I imagine they draw a very distinct line between slapping around the Marines Malevolent and going toe-to-toe with a Lord Inquisitor.  The former they'll do; the latter they won't. 

 

The Inquisition doesn't push the issue because they don't have to; the Salamanders respect the Inquisition's role and accept it.  As Excubitor pointed out, their reputation [and relationship with the AdMech] gets them a hearing, and any Inquisitor worth his salt will consider their position carefully.  But if the Sallies don't like the result, I don't think they'd raise arms against the Inquisition about it, nor hold a grudge beyond that particular Inquisitor.  That reliability alone probably saves them a lot of trouble in Imperial politicking - nobody feels the need to make an example of them, unlike, say...Space Puppies.

 

Of course, if the charges are against the Sallies directly, then all bets are off.  I can't imagine, "Oh, Exterminatus on Nocturne?  Signed by Lord Inquisitor Frank himself?  Well, shoot.  I guess that's it for us then.  Come on guys, let's go home.  Only a few hours till our planet's rendered a lifeless husk, let's spend it with our families." 


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#23
CompanyChampionSiege

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Salamanders, the pices chapter


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#24
Xisor

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Apologies for something of the necromancy, but nevertheless: I think Michael's kinda hit the point that Ex was trying to make.

 

Simply: the Salamanders are a lot more savvy and, in many respects, a lot more *valuable* to the Inquisition than the Space Wolves. In that light, it's not so much of a question of whether the Inquisition would 'dare' to go against the Salamanders, but whether they would *need* to.

 

If it had been Salamanders at Armageddon instead of the Space Wolves, it's not difficult to suppose that things simply would have fallen out differently. If we accept the idea that they could have both ultimately stopped Angron (with GK help), and we accept the idea that they could have been left with a human population to worry about, the question then becomes: in what state is that actually achieved?

 

I'd contend that the Salamanders would simply have taken vastly greater casualties than the Space Wolves. Yet, in doing so, they'd have perhaps done things in such a manner that the Inquisition and Grey Knights didn't feel it was right and proper to 'reduce the surplus population'. I don't recall the specifics from The Emperor's Gift, but I'd guess it would work out that way - the Salamanders operate differently from the Space Wolves, probably all the while being mindful of the practicalities of the situation: Angron isn't the only threat humanity needs to be spared from. So the Salamanders would have to work extra-hard (and die in greater numbers, probably) to defeat Angron in a different manner and thus spare the (bulk) of the humans the exposure that causes the Inquisition and Grey Knights to decide to act against the humans in the final place.

 

---

 

There's also the question of the Salamanders' reputation generally. It's not just a reputation, but a direct result of their MO and raison d'etre. The Inquisition and Grey Knights probably don't expect the Salamanders to cause trouble. They also might expect them to be more reliable and mindful in actually shielding humanity from Chaos. The Salamanders also exert a lot of influence within the Imperium, arguably 'making friends' more than the Space Wolves do - might the human forces cooprate more coherently, might the Adeptus Mechanicus be more prepared to commit huge forces if they believe that they're working with a Chapter that's trustworthy, or even a Chapter that they are comprehensively invested in? Perhaps they have more legitimate bonds and debts that can be called in more easily? The economics of the Salamanders' reputation could, generally, be much more appealing and obviously useful to non-Space Marine forces than the near-theatrical (but ultimately real & effective) heroics of the Space Wolves. If that's the case, there's certainly a more obvious basis for cooperating properly with the Salamanders where with Space Wolves they'd only get mistrust, suspicion and heel-dragging.


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#25
elithren

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In response to Xisor, I dont think it's fair to say that one chapter is more valuable over another, especially when dealing with two first founding chapters that participated in the heresy and all number of things for the last 10k years.  The ultramarines are the source of the vast majority of space marines today; would you say they are more valuable than either the space wolves or the salamanders?  You and I would say no but I bet a ultrafan would say yes.  They all have their own strengths and contributions to the Imperiam and to lose any of them would be a huge blow.  Also, just because Logan had a falling out doesn't mean the space wolves haven't been useful to the inquisition prior.

 

To summarize the question, would the inquisition/GK go against a first founding chapter (no matter who it is).  Answer is yes they would and they did, as shown in the Emperor's gift.  Would they all united in it, no they would not (as shown in the Emperor's gift as well).  When you get two ppl who refuse to back down, a fight is inevitable.  That leads to the thought of what would it take to stop the fighting before the one eliminates the other.  I'm personally more inclined to think that in the case of inquisition vs random first founding chapter, the other founding chapters would side with their space marine brothers.  We know that the space marines have the power to alter the government of the imperium, as shown when that random assassin high lord killed everyone and the age of apostasy (to an extent).  Would they do that to redo the inquisition?  Maybe, if they determined that it no longer fulfilled it's purpose it was originally meant to accomplish.

 

That's what keeps the whole thing grimdark.  Could the imperium be reorganized to be happy good guy government?  Probably.  Will it? Nope.  It's dark and it's going to stay that way!







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