Woman in Space Marine army - Is this fluff-legit excuse?

[Crobat]

They found that guy, with this superb gen, to join him with codex gene-seed. But that man has a sister he didn't wan to be apart. Shee semed really good gen material too, so they want here to become a Sorita, but after close examination, they saw she had CAIS. So therofre they decided to take them both in to company with both having XY cromosome and testosteron producing ability.

 

Now... this is a bit contravesial, tehincaly she wouldn't be woman... with bulking up, and marine armor. Only distinction she had would be her face, and vulva between legs.

 

Now destroy this with legit contra arguments, or make new legit fluff exuce out of box. I know this ppost gonna see a bit of disaproving xD even my self I am not sure how do decide about this idea.

[Grotsmasha]

In the nicest way possible, just no. As far as the Canon 40k universe, Space Marines wouldn't give a :cuss about the realitive of a potential recruit, not even the Salamanders. If you're set on it, perhaps have her volunteer to be his Chapter serf, who accompany's him EVERYWHERE, use her as a wound markiner in-game even.

 

NO FEMALE SM's IS AN INVIOLATE RULE OF 40k, there is no contradiction on the point, like so many other things, it is always stated as Impossible to achieve. It would take the Emperor himself to develop a new female specific process for it to work.

 

Perhaps have her perform a significant heroic action for the Chapter, with the Chapter Master "aquiring" her a suit of SoB armour as reward.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Ecritter]

After reading about CAIS I have to say the following, no not allowed in SM chapters, for the following reasons.

 

If CAIS appears in a female, it has little to no effect ... so she's a woman and not able to undergo the geneseed implantation.

 

If CAIS appears in a male, he'd appear female but still be male.  Sadly he'd be seen as inferior and probably killed as a warp abberation.  40k is very unforgiven of mutations.

 

If you look at my Sons of Pyron, you'll see how I incorporated women into my chapter in an acceptable way.

[Demus Ragnok]

Really the only way to do girl marines is to do an alternate universe were there were female primarchs and female geneseed.

[infyrana]

Give her SoB style armour, or something from Imperial Guard, make her an IG or SoB sure.. or something else like a bearer of items (as above) or someone from the media taking pictures, or heck, even as a bloodbowl style cheerleader for pure amusement factor.

Keep the SM armoured female to your own personal fluff / modelling / ideas etc, most, as above, probably would not accept it in the 40k universe as it is currently written.

What you do in the sanctity of your own home is your choice

Edit: or that, as Demus puts it - alternative universes.

[Gorkimedes]

If you're just looking for power armored soldiers maybe something like a non-Imperial human civilization with a different kind of super soldier or the personal troops of a high ranking Magos Biologis?  Not all human individuals with extraordinary abilities are Space Marines.

 

 Lexicanum mentions - The Companions of Vogel, a division of the biologis focused of " forced augmentation to strengthen humanity. A young and radical philosophy, as it implies the human form is somehow insufficient alone."

[Aqui]

Or to keep out of the whole issue of female Marines, you could have her as a personal equerry on the battle field. She could be fielded in game in a similar way that the Watcher does for Azrael of the Dark Angels. I'm not sure if the Watcher is used in a combative role as I don't have the DA Codex, but at least they would be on the game board together if you choose to. Perhaps she could have a banner if you choose to field him as a character in you DIY army or be used as a bespoke wound counter. As for the model itself, the best way to model her would probably be a Sister

[Demus Ragnok]

Or to keep out of the whole issue of female Marines, you could have her as a personal equerry on the battle field. She could be fielded in game in a similar way that the Watcher does for Azrael of the Dark Angels. I'm not sure if the Watcher is used in a combative role as I don't have the DA Codex, but at least they would be on the game board together if you choose to. Perhaps she could have a banner if you choose to field him as a character in you DIY army or be used as a bespoke wound counter. As for the model itself, the best way to model her would probably be a Sister

Now that is some good thinking there Aquilanus.

The Watcher that carries Azzy's helm has no affect in game.

[Conn Eremon]

After reading about CAIS I have to say the following, no not allowed in SM chapters, for the following reasons.

 

If CAIS appears in a female, it has little to no effect ... so she's a woman and not able to undergo the geneseed implantation.

 

If CAIS appears in a male, he'd appear female but still be male. Sadly he'd be seen as inferior and probably killed as a warp abberation. 40k is very unforgiven of mutations.

 

If you look at my Sons of Pyron, you'll see how I incorporated women into my chapter in an acceptable way.

I believe he meant the latter. If this person is his sister, thereby letting me assume that she appears human, but the CAIS thing let's it work because she has an XY chromosome . . . Then she is a genetic male with CAIS, appearing female.

 

Which means, theoretically yeah. I guess it could work. I'm not too aware of CAIS, but from what I know about gene-seed the only known requirement is malehood. The rest are just brushed off as "genetically compatible," which we would have no way of knowing if this CAIS thing would have an impact on.

 

So we have a person socially accepted as a female, as the whole CAIS thing was not known prior to this. So nothing untoward would have happened to her for whatever reason prior to the test. Not every world has the capability of figuring that sort of mystery out, so it is acceptable that this is only just known.

 

Onto the OP,

 

My main issue is with the Marines. Why don't they just say no? That seems like the obvious response. What is he going to do about it? Hold a grudge until the indoctrination protocols scrub his mind so roughly he can barely even recall that he had a sister?

I mean, the fact of the matter is that there are probably a huge percentage of recruits who rant and rail against their fate. Who resist being torn from their families. Not all Chapters recruit from populations that are aware of them and actively seek to join them. A lot are straight up kidnapped because they did something that showed promise. And most of those die before continuing to full Marine status, thereby proving their weakness. This kid would be absolutely no different.

 

So why does the Chapter do it? Why do they care? And why are they willing to overlook a mutation in order to appease a kid they knoe will probably die on the table or in exercises within the year?

 

If you can satisfactorily answer that, then you will be closer to what you want.

 

That said, a lot of what others have already said are great alternatives. Aquilanus' especially runs in line with how I would approach this is if it were my own DIY. Because, for the story, for the true purpose of the final article, this girl becoming a Space Marine is irrelevant and unnecessary. If she provides some purpose, as a companion to this other character, then she can provide that easily enough, and in my opinion far better, as a Chapter serf. In an organization where every warrior is a true brother, who all share a demi-god father, than bringing such a relationship in with you loses its impact. But familial ties remaining strong between those who have ascended as Angels of Death and those who have not? There you can find some real meat for a good story. That's what gives the Salamanders some of their character and having a brother-sister relationship between a Space Marine and a mortal serf would lend great character as well.

 

Though personally, if I was writing this, the sister would have already passed some time ago. The Marine is an officer, either nearing Chapter Master level or getting there, and his current attendant is either the daughter or granddaughter of his deceased sister. If I went the daughter, then the fondness would remain and he would be the doting uncle (in that she is not shackled to a soul-crushing existence in some factory or something). If I went with the granddaughter, then I would be using it to highlight the changes coming over the Marine as he prepares himself for leadership. Where he can no longer allow himself to care so deeply for those beneath him and has begun to distance himself.

[Grand Master Aldric]

Well, all i can say is... GAMES-WORKSHOP SAYS THERE ARE GIRL SPACE MARINES! Check this out.  http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t620/SAKAGE1/girlspacemaris_zps6d94cb26.jpg This is a official games-workshop release.Oh and the original article by rick priestly says nothing about gender.

[Paulochromis]

You could always go for a female Inquisitor, like Amberley  Vail from the Ciaphas Cain novels.

She wore golden power armour.

Always useful to have an Inquisitor & some Servo Skulls.

[Toomanyprojects]

The only conceivable way that you could do this in universe would be to model the second or eleventh legions. Nobody knows anythig for sure about them. If alpharius could be twins I don't see a female primarch as being ridiculous, but it would take a bit of careful thought.

 

Having said that, it's your army, have at it if you want to :)

[auwombat]

oh come on are you guys for real!!!! The Emperor would have taken any soldier during and after the HH be they male or female and by the time they had been augmented no one  would know the difference, they would have all been space marines, and space marines are neither male or female for gods sake they just are. So the whole 50% of the gene seed would have been thrown out when the Emperor needed every soldier he could get, give me a break! so yes there are female space marines, read the horus herasy and see how many space marines display female characteristics like thinking and feeling. I reckon there is a whole unwritten story here about gene seed and its results! Just my thoughts on this topic :) 

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Where's the Sacred Order of the Bowling Ball when you need them...?

[Legatus]

 

Well, all i can say is... GAMES-WORKSHOP SAYS THERE ARE GIRL SPACE MARINES! Check this out.

 

This is a official games-workshop release.

 

That model is not a Space Marine. The WD99 had a page with models of miscelaneous "Adventurers", and among the various space pirates, mercenaries and specialists there were two women in power armour. One was "Female Warrior Jayne", and the other was "Female Warrior Gabs". That same WD also has a page with models of "Imperial Space Marines". So if those females were supposed to be Space Marines, they would have been on that page, not among the "Adventurers". Early during Rogue Trader, all power armour looked like that. See for example the Sister of Battle in the Rogue Trader Rulebook on page 269.

 

 

 

Oh and the original article by rick priestly says nothing about gender.

 

From the WD98 article (p. 16):

 

"These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening."

[Wade Garrett]

Since when are "thinking and feeling" strictly female traits?

 

Throne of Terra, where's a moderator with a multi melta when you really need one?

[Dosjetka]

I'll be more constructive: what Ace said below

[Ace Debonair]

It's like this.

If there was an easy, non-controversial way to have female space marines that didn't go against, contradict or ignore the existing background stuff, somebody would have already found it by now.

Seriously, people have been giving it a shot ever since the old backstory stuff told them space marines had to be male.

So my advice would be, if you want female space marines go ahead and model them in any fashion you see fit, with as many or as few changes as you desire. But trying to justify female space marines to the internet is utter folly, so you might as well save yourself the headache and not bother.

[Grand Master Aldric]

 

 

Well, all i can say is... GAMES-WORKSHOP SAYS THERE ARE GIRL SPACE MARINES! Check this out.

 

This is a official games-workshop release.

 

That model is not a Space Marine. The WD99 had a page with models of miscelaneous "Adventurers", and among the various space pirates, mercenaries and specialists there were two women in power armour. One was "Female Warrior Jayne", and the other was "Female Warrior Gabs". That same WD also has a page with models of "Imperial Space Marines". So if those females were supposed to be Space Marines, they would have been on that page, not among the "Adventurers". Early during Rogue Trader, all power armour looked like that. See for example the Sister of Battle in the Rogue Trader Rulebook on page 269.

 

 

> 

Oh and the original article by rick priestly says nothing about gender.

 

From the WD98 article (p. 16):

 

"These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening."

 

Umm... there is no such thing as a male tissue type or male specific hormones. Also, their use of the term means something else. And 1 question, who wrote the article you are talking about?

[Crobat]

ok ok ok no cais woman than :D

 

here is new one for you guys: soritas slaughtered by orks, (no caos coruptions) Marines came to battle to late, and there only one sister left standing. With her ship and rest of sisters gone, Marines take her temporary under their comand. As hot headed individual as she is, she refused to stay back, while Marines are encountering new enemis along the path home. They allow her to fight alongside for the Emperror untill they finnaly reach inqusition force, to rejoin her back.

 

:D now destroy this fluff or aprove it

[Grand Master Aldric]

ok ok ok no cais woman than

here is new one for you guys: soritas slaughtered by orks, (no caos coruptions) Marines came to battle to late, and there only one sister left standing. With her ship and rest of sisters gone, Marines take her temporary under their comand. As hot headed individual as she is, she refused to stay back, while Marines are encountering new enemis along the path home. They allow her to fight alongside for the Emperror untill they finnaly reach inqusition force, to rejoin her back.

now destroy this fluff or aprove it

Do what you wish, but female space marines are entirely possible. But as for your idea while possible it unlikely do to the fact that sisters causally don't like space marines.

[Legatus]

 

Umm... there is no such thing as a male tissue type or male specific hormones.

 

Hormone levels are very different between males and females. The differences are most pronounced in the pelvic and genital tissues, but are responsible for anatomic differences in the entire body. The differences in bone strength and muscle mass between males and females develops during puberty, which is exactly where most of the Marine organs are implanted and intended to affect the aspirants development. The Biscopea for example is directly tied to the aspirants hormone levels and is intended to greatly stimulate muscular growth.

 

 

 

And 1 question, who wrote the article you are talking about?

 

The article in question is "The Origins of the Legiones Astartes" from the White Dwarf number 98 from 1988. It was written by Rick Priestley. That article would then later be reprinted in the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article series, including the first Volume of the Index Astartes books.

[Conn Eremon]

ok ok ok no cais woman than

here is new one for you guys: soritas slaughtered by orks, (no caos coruptions) Marines came to battle to late, and there only one sister left standing. With her ship and rest of sisters gone, Marines take her temporary under their comand. As hot headed individual as she is, she refused to stay back, while Marines are encountering new enemis along the path home. They allow her to fight alongside for the Emperror untill they finnaly reach inqusition force, to rejoin her back.

now destroy this fluff or aprove it

Seems plausible. To make it seem more acceptable, I'd make it so that the Chapter has close ties with the Ecclessiarchy (either because they do worship the God-Emperor or they are simply more accepting of such a belief), and that this occurs in a Crusade that is far from the Imperial center, along the galactic rim or the clusters of stars just outside. Not exactly in easy contact, so it would stand to reason why should would be spending so much time with the Chapter (and like hell they'd go out of their way to drop her off. They got wars to fight. I'm sure They'll run into one of her kind at one of them. Until then, you're stuck with us, or whichever planet we're orbiting that you want to get off at), and why they are more accommodating with her warrior fervor and allow to her to fight alongside them.

[infyrana]

For those trying to justify what is fact and fiction when it comes to real life biology - don't even bother (though kudos if you do have the knowledge).  This is a game based in a science fiction fantasy setting that I can't believe for a second was designed with the intention of being factual and realistic.  Though of course, their ability to use time, resources, and newly gained knowledge to semi-justify things and give more detailed explanations is both commendable and entertaining for us all.

 

A poster above - Ace-Debonair - pretty much sums it up :)

[Sanctus Ferri]

As it happens, blood hounds, Legatus is reading from the same Rick Priestly article you are. It's also the one on page 6 (quote on page 9) of the 1989 40k Compendium.

 

A point of interest: as blood hounds has pointed out, there is no such thing as male tissue types, nor male hormones. That being so, what can 'keyed to male hormones' mean, logically? I think Legatus' mention of hormone levels (the only thing that hormonally distinguishes gender) is the only scientifically sensible thing one can take away from that line. However, that being so, we are then obliged to throw the 'must be male' part out the window, and mute it to a 'works easier and more consistently on males.' The amount of any given hormone present in a human varies wildly from individual to individual. For example, looking at testosterone, one estimate for the age that the Astartes process begins gives a variance of between 1 and 619 nanograms per decilitre (of blood) in males and 2-33 ng/dL in females. That means that some females will have higher levels than some males.

 

That brings us back to the question of hormone types. Logically, the differing functions of the various organs will mean that they all respond to different hormones, relevant to their function. Some, like the example Legatus gave, may therefore respond to typical male levels of a given hormone. Others will respond wholly or partially to hormones that are not regulated by gender, and therefore those organs would grow in females normally.

 

The next question is what amount of those hormones that are found in greater abundance in males are actually required to begin the growth of the remaining organs? What percentage of the male population was the Emperor aiming at when he made the gene-seed? While it is reasonable to assume levels that would rule out those considered 'hormonally deficient,' that does not automatically imply a level so high that it 'just couldn't be found in a female. The higher a level required, the more of his male candidates he would eliminate as well, so that too far past whatever was 'average' and he would be losing promising candidates for no reason.

 

In any case, that only accounts for natural hormone levels. Even at our technology level, we can both stimulate specific hormone production in the body, and directly augment hormone levels by introducing them to the body from outside, both of which are used therapeutically to those with deficiencies. Thus, any level of hormone required to cause a given organ to begin development could in fact be produced in a female candidate if it was desired to do so.

 

In conclusion, from a science perspective, the lack of females Space Marines is about what the Imperium chooses to do, not about what is actually possible.