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The Legio Bolter & Chainsword - read 1st post before voting

Legio Bolter & Chainsword

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Poll: The Legio Bolter & Chainsword (79 member(s) have cast votes)

What should we do with the Legio? Please read the first post before voting.

You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
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#1
Brother Tyler

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The Legio Bolter & Chainsword is the site's mascot Chapter. It was created in 2001/2002 with the intent of providing a means by which our members could interact "in character" with the board.

Initially, our method of moderating the site associated the moderators with the Inquisition. Also, the lore provided for each of the ordos of the Inquisition having a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes as their chamber militant, with no specific Chapter named for the Ordo Hereticus. So our initial construct was that the Legio was the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Codex: Witch Hunters later upended that construct when it was revealed that the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas served as the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Also, we had been adjusting our methods of moderating, with a style less jackbooted than before. So we revised the lore of the Legio to say that we worked with the Inquisition, but were not part of the Inquisition.

Additional adjustments to the lore of the Legio have taken place over time, but we have always been left with a problematic core: the Legio bears a very strong resemblance to the Ordo Xenos Deathwatch with regard to drawing members from other Chapters and painting our armour black (though the color scheme of the Legio has always been based on the default colors of the website and the old Field Police from the Rogue Trader/1st edition era).

So over the years we have been debating what to do with the Legio.

Here are the elements of our intent with the Legio:
  • Provide our members with a way to immerse themselves in the game universe, interacting with other members organizationally.
  • Represent the broadest range of (loyalist) Space Marines possible - ideally all Chapters are included.
  • Provide a vehicle for board events such as Arena of Death challenges, campaigns, etc.
  • Bottom line - the Legio is the "brand" (or mascot) force of the Bolter & Chainsword website.
  • Here are some things that are not part of the Legio (and they will not become part):
    • Chaos Space Marines - At one time we discussed having some deep cover members of the Legio infiltrating the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines, but we discarded that idea. We've had traitors from the Legio, but that's as far as we'll go.
    • Adepta Sororitas, Imperial Guard, etc. - While we allow the full range of the armies of humanity to be discussed at the site, we just can't shoehorn all of the various organizations into a single organization without coming off as silly and fanboyish. The Legio, whatever it is, may work alongside these organizations, but the Legio is about the Adeptus Astartes.
    • Special rules - The purpose of the Legio isn't to give anyone nifty rules for an army or ways to indulge our desire for better rules. It's just a lore-based vehicle for participation. The only time we've really had rules was when the Chapter Traits rules were in use. We may consider a basic set of Chapter Tactics, but it's difficult to come up with decent Chapter Tactics when you're talking about a Chapter that draws its members from all Chapters. What we're likely to do is simply provide the lore-based construct and allow members to use whatever rules they want to represent the Legio (e.g., a Space Wolves player might want to use Codex: Space Wolves while a Raptors player might want to use that Chapter's Chapter Tactics). Bloodsaint said it nicely, and I'm paraphrasing, when he said that the Legio wasn't a super costume - it was more like a football jersey that a Space Marine donned.
    So the administrators, moderators, and former moderators have discussed some options and we have narrowed our options down to a few basic concepts. Since the Legio is supposed to represent our members, however, we want to solicit some input in order to help us finalize the Legio:

    CURRENT MODEL - SPECIAL CHAPTER
    This is the "status quo" option where the Legio is a separate Chapter that draws its members from other Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. Even though this is status quo, though, we can still make adjustments to the lore in order to refine problem areas.

    Pros: Provides a basis for members to create Legio armies if they desire (several of us have planned such armies over the years, and it would be really neat to see someone actually complete one). Gives us a hierarchy and logical basis for events such as campaigns and stories (we can use the Legio as one of the protagonists).

    Cons: Very strong resemblance to the Deathwatch. The FFG Deathwatch RPG even provides some challenges for the Deathwatch that would be equally applicable to the Legio (i.e., battle-brothers from different Chapters getting along).

    WAR COLLEGE/PlACE
    Instead of being an organization, the Legio is a place sacred to the Adeptus Astartes and where members of various Chapters might gather to study, train, and exchange ideas. Potential leaders might even be singled out and developed here. The actual organizations at the location would vary over time, each adopting the temporary mantle of "Legio" during their tenure. This might be seen as the United Nations of the Adeptus Astartes, with representatives from the various Chapters. Alternately, it might be a temporary assignment for elements of one or more Chapters, with the various Chapters rotating this duty.

    Pros: Most Chapters can easily be represented in either setting. Replicates the real world concept of the Bolter & Chainsword website where players of various Chapters meet to discuss relevant issues and help each other to enjoy the hobby.

    Cons: This concept lacks support in the official lore. While there are instances where conclaves of Chapter Masters (or their representatives) from multiple Chapters might meet for a specific purpose (the creation of the Deathwatch, the judgment of the Badab War Chapters, etc.), there isn't strong support for this happening on an ongoing basis. Also, there are many Chapters that are known to be quite insular or aggressive towards other Chapters (e.g., Iron Hands, Minotaurs) and finding a rationale for them to have members of such a body, either the rotating duty concept or the permanent body concept, would be a challenge. There also doesn't appear to be a rationale for a special livery.

    PERIODIC GATHERING
    This is similar to the war college concept above, but is more like the Feast of Blades where Chapters meet on a periodic basis and rekindle bonds of brotherhood while having friendly competitions (if ramming your sword through the heart of someone else can be considered "friendly"). This doesn't have to be a permanent scheduled event with a fixed set of participants like the Feast of Blades conducted by the Imperial Fists Legion Successors, but might be an ad hoc tradition when multiple Chapters work together.

    Pros: Allows for interaction between and among various Chapters.

    Cons: Doesn't justify special livery. Instead of this being a permanent construct, is more like a series of gatherings between a variety of participants over the years. This concept also bears a strong resemblance to two different events in the lore - the Feast of Blades (already cited) and the duels between the champions of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves when those two Chapters interact.

    CRUSADE/CONFLICT/EVENT
    Under this construct, the Legio is the aggregate of all the Space Marine forces (and potentially other organizations) that participate in a major event such as a crusade or the defense against a black crusade.

    Pros: Provides the basis for a campaign, arena of death competitions, etc.

    Cons: Events such as (black) crusades are limited in terms of both time and participants - there would be limits beyond which adding more Chapters or multiple members from Chapters already included becomes problematic (and silly). Also, this doesn't allow for the justification of the current livery (though the Chapter badge might become a Campaign badge). Also, some fairly momentous events have been developed in the official lore and there is no mention of a "Legio" of this type participating in any, making the development of an appropriate event problematic (we won't shoehorn the Legio into any of the official events).

    HONOURS
    In this construct, the Legio changes from a permanent organization to an honorary organization composed of all members of the Adeptus Astartes who have been awarded a certain honour (or family of honours). Such honours might be awarded by the parent Chapter, or they might be awarded by Inquisitors (the latter if we want to preserve the concept of the Legio working with the Inquisition). Such honours might also have a basic award or family of awards described in the Codex Astartes, but with variations developed in different Chapters - the concepts of the awardes might be the same, but the form of the awards might vary. Those familiar with the Purple Heart awarded for injuries sustained in combat can equate the Legio as an award to becoming a member of the Order of the Purple Heart after being awarded the Purple Heart (though the criteria for the Legio wouldn't be injury in combat - it would be something else).

    Pros: Allows for any Chapter to have members "in the Legio." Also, a Chapter might have any number of members "in the Legio" at one time and over the years - there's no need to come up with a rationale for why Chapter X has four battle-brothers "in the Legio." Creates an opportunity for players to represent forces "of the Legio" with considerable creativity, with various markings/honours indicating that a battle-brother is "in the Legio."

    Cons: Doesn't support the need for special livery. Doesn't really support full Legio armies as separate organizations (though all the members of a kill team might conceivably be "in the Legio"). Legio armies would shift to being standard Space Marine armies with certain leaders being "in the Legio."

    ADOPT THE DEATHWATCH
    Under this option, we would drop the Legio entirely and simply replace it with the Deathwatch as our mascot Chapter. Interestingly enough, a number of members of the Bolter & Chainsword have helped to playtest various FFG Deathwatch RPG products over the years.

    Pros: Official organization, heavy support from Games Workshop and Fantasy Flight Games.

    Cons: We have no control whatsoever over the Deathwatch. Also, the visual cues of the site's colors, especially our signature red, aren't present with the Deathwatch. The black is there, but we don't really use silver.

    So please consider which of these options you prefer and vote accordingly. Most of the options are only conceptual at the moment, so we have plenty of room to make further refinements to whichever one we select.

    Feel free to reply and discuss ideas.

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#2
JeffTibbetts

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I'd vote for the War College. As you said, it's very much in line with what we actually do here. As for fluff, I've never seen anything that said they DON'T do this sort of thing... Of course, as the chapters are spread far and wide, it seems like it'd be less likely for some chapters that are very well represented here, like the Black Templars. I think most chapters would have no problem sending occassional members (possibly from the Librarius) to engage in these sorts of things.

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#3
Ace Debonair

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My vote goes to keeping the Legio as it is.

It works well in the same way the Deathwatch does, even if their campaigns and missions are rather less popularised.

 

I'm not against borrowing heavily from the War College idea, though. Perhaps a sort of combination of the two might be best? Hmm.



#4
Dam13n

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I vote to keep the Legio as-is.  

 

The many photos of Legio B&C marines in the associated topic was a definite attracting factor in me joining the forum.

 

The association with the Inquisition doesn't need to be an affiliation with any specific Ordo, IMHO.  

 

In fact having the Legio associated only loosely with the Inquisition as a whole, and thus involved in many different areas, wouldn't be a bad idea.  

- From clubbing baby Tau to burning naughty Heretics and Witches to chasing diabolical Daemons, the Legio does them all.

 

The re-launch (so to speak) of the Legion also offers a great opportunity to have a painting competition/design competition in order to update their image away from the Deathwatch.  That should resolve that particular issue, and in a way that encourages it's members to get involved.



#5
Black Cohort

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I think the war college idea is the best, if you go the direction of the deathwatch perhaps it is a specific watch fortress or training centre of the deathwatch?
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#6
jokaero weaponsmith

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Having the Legio as a reworking of the old Mentors Chapter would be interesting coming under the war college idea.

Would allow brothers to field more than one Legio character in their chapter.

Brothers could field a Legio Ultramarine in their Iron Hands Chapter if they so wished (he's there to learn)

Brothers could field one or more Legio Ultramarines in their Ultramarine chapter (they are there to teach)

Legio squads would be refining what they have learnt or refining inter chapter tactics

Legio "chapter" deployment deployed in similar role to status quo legio .( wouldn't have to rework all the lore that is already in place )

There is some support in the old lore with the Mentors chapter, hell Legio could be the new reason that the Mentors chapter has gone insular . Annoyed that their role was subverted.
I would see delegates having to repaint their armor as they are all equals all there to learn.
In what ever form I can't wait to see the rebirth of the Legio .

Edited by jokaero weaponsmith, 03 March 2014 - 07:18 PM.

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#7
Hyaenidae

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If we need anything, it'd be a drive to make some of the newer members aware of how the Legio operate, and what they are.

 

A painting and fluff competition would be outstanding, fun, inspiring, and could spread "the good word" that is the BnC, even beyond our black and red borders.


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#8
KingKurama

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I like the idea of having an event campaign, such as the high lords have decreed that each chapter must present there most lauded hero & take to the honour crusade where actions speak larger than words.

Where everyone builds/converts/paints there hero in a crusade themed competition against an encroaching xenos invasion
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#9
Lord Sondar

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While I like the idea of the Legio. I think that having some sort of time served in the Legio might be a better idea than a permenant secondment. I like the War College idea as members working together sharing ideas is exactly what the forum is all about.

I also really like the idea of having a marine with B&C honours in a comand squad, representing him after he returned to his parent chapter.

I think we could borrow ideas from the Deathwatch but be our own version.

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#10
Ace Debonair

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I also really like the idea of having a marine with B&C honours in a comand squad, representing him after he returned to his parent chapter.
 

 

That is just the coolest mental image.

 

I'm adding that to my modelling 'to-do list'.thumbsup.gif



#11
Conn Eremon

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While I am perfectly accepting of the current Legio, I cast my vote for the College. To my eye, the two can actually be married together really easily, without affecting much of the original content. But if the intent of this is to refresh the Legio and get some new attention, I'd advocate for the one that is at least a change. You are much more likely to get some new blood and extra interest if there is something new to it, than if you retain the way it was. Even though the two are very similar and the original is still rather good.

So I say go for the College.

I had also thought when I voted earlier today that this could allow for a community project, like 1000heathens suggested. However, as I don't model or paint, but am here only for the fluff, I didn't think of a modelling/painting challenge.

But I think both ideas are great and would really serve to spread the word of the Legio/Collegia Bolter and Chainsword (where Space Marines learn to Space Marine).

A Painting/Modelling Challenge that isn't a competition, just a cool project for forum members to participate in as they see fit and just feel like they are a part of the community. Sure, pick out favorites and such, like Golden Daemon awards, but don't make it a Forum vs. Forum event. Award individual quality rather than the quantities subforums put out.

Or perhaps make it an internal Legio competition. Wasn't the original fluff that there were three Great Companies or some such? If that is being kept, perhaps each participant gets randomly assigned and the competition is between these Great Companies. I don't know, like I said I am only here for the fluff, so I might be totally off base coming up with ideas for such a Challenge.

But that brings me to the second thing. Pinned in the main Liber Astartes forum is a community IA that we could use as a model for a community fluff project on the Legio's new course. Create a thread, foster some discussion. Have someone high up, such as yourself, moderate it and be the final judge on what is kept or discarded, or go by the majority's interest as you are with this poll. If the Legio is to get itself a new identity, let the community be a part of its construction. What better way to instill the feeling that the community is a part of the Legio?

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#12
Aqui

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My vote goes to keeping the Legio as it is.
It works well in the same way the Deathwatch does, even if their campaigns and missions are rather less popularised.
 
I'm not against borrowing heavily from the War College idea, though. Perhaps a sort of combination of the two might be best? Hmm.

The War College sounds not unlike the setting to "This is the Liber Astartes", albeit the Legio is far, far, far less bonkers! laugh.png

Having the sites' Legio as a "proper" War College or battle honour are the directions I'm currently leaning to thumbsup.gif but I'm certainly willing to have it remain as it is too smile.png

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#13
Brother Cambrius

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With the style of the group in everyone supporting/helping each other as we go through our time playing our beloved genetically enhanced warriors of awesome judgement the war college idea certainly stands strongest in my mind. Thus, the War College idea definitely gets my vote, with status quo a close second. It certainly opens up the opportunity as mentioned for players to fields multiple Legio models in their army.

 

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#14
Dragonkin Arenis

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I like the idea that the Legio is a War-College, but I'm also in favour of keeping it as it is. Maybe some combination of the two proposals? Like there is an extensive Librarius with permanent placements and other temporary staff to do with teaching and instructing, but keeping the three Great Companies setup as the military force of the Legio.

If the "Great Companies" take in only one member of a chapter, but the "Librarius" can take in any number from any chapter, that could solve the "many members from one Chapter" issue.


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#15
Brother Casman

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I'm most in favour of the War-College idea, I think. Though, keeping the status quo is very close second.
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#16
Ecritter

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Either leave as is or go with War College setting.



#17
JamesI

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I like the war college idea best.


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#18
recon0321

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I like the war college idea it fits with modern military themes which can easily translate to 40k...what about having a set of resin bits made up from shapeways or another 3rd party for shoulder pads,tank doors etc....?
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#19
Madwolf Shadowmane

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I think a combination of a "special" chapter and a war college would fit the bill.  Maybe the purpose of the special chapter could be to further the codex.  Or maybe the college is tasked with studying and regulating the Astartes.  The "this is the Liber" story lends itself to the combination as well.


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#20
Dosjetka

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Another vote cast for the War College.


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#21
Conn Eremon

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I was thinking, if the College had permanently attached members, much like how you have Marines who are permanently forwarded to the Deathwatch, then having a special livery for those "Tenured Teacher" Marines (which could be modeled after Mods and Admin) that the temporary "Student" or "Traveling Teacher" Marines (the Frater, Moderators, etc) could adopt for their stay makes sense.

Likewise, if this College had a "Chamber Militant," perhaps for the purpose of practical application of lessons learned, then the current Legio could survive wholesale within the College. Led by permanently forwarded officers over the bulk of the army, Marines who might only be present for a few decades at a time.

I think that would be awesome. The Legio survives as is, with the addition of a stationary base utilized as a College. Where people can get a doctorate in chainswords.

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#22
Dolchiate Remembrancer

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The war college is a great idea. I however voted for the crusade and event idea as I really like the concept of having a means of communication to unite astartes under the imperium's banner for a specified cause. And that is what I feel the B&C is, a unification of all Space Marines.


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#23
Icewolf

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What about a hybrid between the War College/Special Chapter, the idea of the War College is to learn about other chapters and what better way than on the battlefield as brothers. 

 

Whilst on secondment to the Legio the marine repaints his armor and then has the choice to retain the colours when he returns to his parent chapter.

 

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#24
Rohaen

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The War College idea is really sharp in my opinion. The idea of a place to send special candidates to learn from other legios seems in spirit with the concept of the Legio, and the idea of a "united nations of legios" could introduce some interesting options for campaigns and tension over time. To me, this is unique and different from Deathwatch and other constructs in the 40k mythos.

 

1 vote for War College and thanks for the discussion.



#25
Orion

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I have voted for the War College as well.

 

I think the United Nations approach is a great start. It could have been developed as far back as when the Legions were broken down into 1000-strong chapters. This may have been decided by the Lords of Terra to ease the loyalist Legions being broken down while still keeping a Legion size force to protect Terra.

 

Sure not all chapters are agreeable towards each other, but would any lone chapter want to be left out of such a gathering?

 

Perhaps when the War College is not fully gathered for greater agendas they operate as a smaller "special" chapter. They're are similarities to the Mentor Legion and Deathwatch but this can be seen as other groups copying the "original" idea of the War College in their own way. I.e, is Deathwatch really a chapter? Or is it just Kill-Teams? Arguments for both exist. Why not the same for the Legio?

 

Livery is as livery does. Deathwatch has its silver arm and Inquisition stamp. The B&C logo is right up there with any other heraldic symbolism.

 

I think the War College is an even stronger example of the B&C, moreso than its similarities to Deathwatch. It's more than the sum of its brethren... and that is BECAUSE of all of its brethren!


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