Storm Raven Plasma Cannon vs. Flyers

[Dam13n]

Just to expand upon the topic even more.

 

The way I see PotMS working is that it affects the "Shooting with Vehicles" section on page 71.

 

If we look at the moving and shooting sub-section that tells us how many weapons may be fired at "full BS"

 

Namely the "Moving at Combat Speed" section which states that a vehicle moving at that speed may fire 1 weapon at "full BS".

- That exact wording is used "Full BS", I'll get to why that's important in a bit.

 

Power of the Machine Spirit interferes at this point and increases however many weapon may be fired at full BS by 1.

- This has no affect on a stationary vehicle, as it can fire all it's weapons anyway (although the secondary effect of split fire does apply).

- Combat speed will equal 2 weapons at full BS (1+1 = 2)

- Cruising speed will equal 1 weapon at full BS (0+1 = 1)

Expanding this to include some other vehicle types will give:

- A Fast Vehicle moving at cruising speed will get 3 weapons at full BS (2+1 = 3)

- A Zooming Flyer will get 5 weapons at full BS (4+1 = 5)

 

Now the wording "Full BS" is important here as it is used in both the normal vehicle shooting rules and in PotMS.  Now we know that certain game effects will over-rule the "Full BS" ruling in the vehicle moving section.  Such as Crew Stunned or any other game effect that causes the vehicle to fire snap shots.  I feel that one has to make the logical leap that these effects also affect the "Full BS" of the PotMS shot similarly.

 

Mainly because otherwise we could have people arguing that the wording "Full BS" in the Vehicle Moving and Shooting section over-rules these snap shot causing effects as well.

 

Now I'm aware this requires some RAI in addition to RAW, and therefore may invite some discussion (which I'm fine with, btw).  But to me it makes sense that it should work in this way.

[Disruptor_fe404]

And yet another expansion:

- A Zooming Flyer will get 5 weapons at full BS (4+1 = 5)

I think we came to the conclusion that of these five weapons, PotMS didn't allow for a third missile? Even if we didn't come to that, do you think you could 'show your working' for the argument re: a third missile (since you're clearly awesome at this )?

[Dam13n]

Ok...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh wait, did you think I was going to produce another massive explanation. :P

 

Sorry, no... maybe somebody else would like to weigh in.

 

I only posted my first reply to bring this thread to compliance. It was getting a little snippy, and I won't be having any flame wars on my watch... Seahawk then asked the very question I'd been thinking about after my first answer. I couldn't help but reply.

 

So over to anyone who wishes to try their hand at giving a clear, concise and nicely referenced answer to that follow-up question.

 

D.

[Seahawk]

I figured it would involve RAI...le sigh.

 

It would have been eaiser to keep this rule in the codexes: "PotMS allows you to fire one extra weapon than normal at BS4, regardless of circumstances."

[Morollan]

And yet another expansion:

- A Zooming Flyer will get 5 weapons at full BS (4+1 = 5)

I think we came to the conclusion that of these five weapons, PotMS didn't allow for a third missile? Even if we didn't come to that, do you think you could 'show your working' for the argument re: a third missile (since you're clearly awesome at this )?

The argument is simply that nothing in PotMS overrides the specific limitation on only firing 2 missiles per turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sure we should also refence the FAQ entries on Snap Shots.  Mainly the hammered in bold answers that nothing, nothing in the game, modifiers the BS1 of a snap shot.

 

Unless you're Tau. ;)

 

Sneaky Xenos, breaking all the rules...

[Kristoff]

And yet another expansion:

- A Zooming Flyer will get 5 weapons at full BS (4+1 = 5)

I think we came to the conclusion that of these five weapons, PotMS didn't allow for a third missile? Even if we didn't come to that, do you think you could 'show your working' for the argument re: a third missile (since you're clearly awesome at this )?

The argument is simply that nothing in PotMS overrides the specific limitation on only firing 2 missiles per turn.

Agreed. The number of Missiles a Flyer can fire is no relation to its speed (which is a condition of the Machine Spirit USR), but rather due to it being a Flyer. Same would apply to Bombs. But, you could fire the 2 Missiles, 2 weapons, and then Machine Spirit a third normal weapon.

It would have been eaiser to keep this rule in the codexes: "PotMS allows you to fire one extra weapon than normal at BS4, regardless of circumstances."

Not entirely. A non-Marine Vehicle may gain access to it that may not normally have BS 4 (it may have BS 5 or 3). Not to mention, Ordnance should still affect the Machine Spirit, too.

I'm sure we should also refence the FAQ entries on Snap Shots. Mainly the hammered in bold answers that nothing, nothing in the game, modifiers the BS1 of a snap shot.

Unless you're Tau.

Sneaky Xenos, breaking all the rules...

Some of those :cuss Psykers can, too, not just the Tau.

[Seahawk]

 

It would have been eaiser to keep this rule in the codexes: "PotMS allows you to fire one extra weapon than normal at BS4, regardless of circumstances."

 Not entirely. A non-Marine Vehicle may gain access to it that may not normally have BS 4 (it may have BS 5 or 3). Not to mention, Ordnance should still affect the Machine Spirit, too.

Exactly. This is why I said it should stay in the codexes and not be a USR. This allows it to be tailored to the army instead of trying a be a catch-all that catches nothing at all (and causes lots of debate for nothing). Hence why I gave my rewritten version, as it covers all marine vehicles that can get it (no need for other BS or ordnance nonsense here). 

[Ushtarador]

Another question: A plasma cannon can't hit a flyer. Am I still allowed to place the template on a target flyer when having chosen skyfire that turn, thus maybe hitting ground targets when scattering?

[Raeven]

nope

[Ushtarador]

why :P

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

Nope. Doesn't matter if it's Skyfire or not. You cannot use blast weapons against flyers. Page 81

 

 

Template, Blast and large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode

 

Couldn't it be argued that the p.81 quote you posted is 'over-ruled', as it were, by the wording of Skyfire on p.42, which states, in part, that

 

A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. 

 

Both are imperative and there's no real logic to preferring one over the other, unless you expand the Basic v. Advanced blurb on p.7 to read Basic<Advanced<Special.

 

nope

 

Yes, they can. A Blast Weapon may not hit a Flyer...

 

Doesn't say they can't be shot at.

[Gentlemanloser]

No you can't.  If you can't hit it, you can't target it.  Therefore you can't shoot, as you can't target the nominated unit.
 

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn't need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
 
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas

 
Edit: ZOMG! Formatting fail. lol

 

<3 Dam1en /manhugz

[Raeven]

why

You cannot target a unit you cannot hit. Straight forward as that.

[Kristoff]

You cannot target a unit you cannot hit.  Straight forward as that.

Not true. You cannot target a unit you cannot SEE (unless you have ignore LOS or Barrage). However, firing a Plasma Cannon at something you cannot hit is a waste and a risk of Gets Hot! all in hopes of a deviation to hit something that it CAN hit.

[Gentlemanloser]

True;

 

 

or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them

[Ushtarador]

No you can't. If you can't hit it, you can't target it. Therefore you can't shoot, as you can't target the nominated unit.

 

 

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn't need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

 

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas

Thanks, should have guessed it would be an FAQ..:P

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Sweet FAQ.

 

So there's no point in having Skyfire at all then since you can only hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping FMCs with Snap Shots. Cool.

 

Unless of course that FAQ isn't actually authority for the matter over which it is claimed as governing, that is.

 

It does mean though that a Devastator can't fire a PC at a Flyer and so I was wrong. A Stormraven could, though.

 

Also, FWIW there is no general rule that you cannot shoot at something which you cannot hit, unless the reason you can't hit it is because it's out of LOS and/or out of range.

 

There is a rule that you cannot target non-list scenery and hope for a scatter.

 

Merged double post, Dam13n.

[Disruptor_fe404]

It does mean though that a Devastator can't fire a PC at a Flyer and so I was wrong. A Stormraven could, though.

 

What? Uh... No, it can't... It may be have Skyfire, but the Flyer still can't be hit by template weapons.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Skyfire means they don't fire Snap Shots, which takes it entirely out of the ambit of the FAQ posted, which is talking about targeting a Flyer via the other method of targeting a Flyer; Snap Shots. The FAQ posted has nothing at all to do with Skyfire and has no bearing on it, properly read. Flyer rules say a Flyer can't be hit by a blast weapon, template et al.  

 

Ergo, a SR can fire a PC at another Flyer, but cannot hit it. If the target is within range and LOS, ostensibly there'd be a scatter. 

 

However, the rules about firing blasts et al at a different level to the one you are on would apply and so even if it scattered right over a juicy unit, it would be fifty or sixty feet over their heads...

[Kristoff]

 

 

It does mean though that a Devastator can't fire a PC at a Flyer and so I was wrong. A Stormraven could, though.

 

What? Uh... No, it can't... It may be have Skyfire, but the Flyer still can't be hit by template weapons.

 

 

It can if it's Hovering. It doesn't change the Vehicle's Unit Type, just how it performs.

 

 

But I don't think that's what either of you were talking about, exactly.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I guess? I sort of assumed the context of the question was 'plasma cannon firing at a Zooming flyer', since he mentioned that a Devastator wouldn't be able to hit it... Because if he was firing at a hovering Flyer, it could fire.
 
EDIT:

 

Skyfire means they don't fire Snap Shots, which takes it entirely out of the ambit of the FAQ posted, which is talking about targeting a Flyer via the other method of targeting a Flyer; Snap Shots. The FAQ posted has nothing at all to do with Skyfire and has no bearing on it, properly read. Flyer rules say a Flyer can't be hit by a blast weapon, template et al.

Ergo, a SR can fire a PC at another Flyer, but cannot hit it. If the target is within range and LOS, ostensibly there'd be a scatter.

However, the rules about firing blasts et al at a different level to the one you are on would apply and so even if it scattered right over a juicy unit, it would be fifty or sixty feet over their heads...

 

I see what you're saying now.

[Raeven]

 

You cannot target a unit you cannot hit.  Straight forward as that.

Not true. You cannot target a unit you cannot SEE (unless you have ignore LOS or Barrage). However, firing a Plasma Cannon at something you cannot hit is a waste and a risk of Gets Hot! all in hopes of a deviation to hit something that it CAN hit.

 

If you cannot hit a unit, for whatever reason, you cannot target that unit. 

[Morollan]

 

 

You cannot target a unit you cannot hit.  Straight forward as that.

Not true. You cannot target a unit you cannot SEE (unless you have ignore LOS or Barrage). However, firing a Plasma Cannon at something you cannot hit is a waste and a risk of Gets Hot! all in hopes of a deviation to hit something that it CAN hit.

 

If you cannot hit a unit, for whatever reason, you cannot target that unit. 

 

Source?

[Dam13n]

I suspect the intended source is:

 

 

Which models can fire - page 13, BRB

"If a model cannot shoot at the target, for any reason, then it cannot shoot at all"

 

Now this falls apart on any model that can fire more than one weapon.  Essentially if I have a Dreadnought with an Assault Cannon and a Heavy Flamer that is firing at a flyer, with an intervening, and very close unit of infantry, then I'm allowed to fire the Heavy Flamer even if it has no chance of hitting the flyer, because the model does have a weapon with a chance of hitting the flyer.  This then could cause collateral damage on the intervening unit of infantry.

 

This has been discussed before, believe it or not.  Though I'm not going to link to that (ultimately WAAC) discussion.

 

Essentially, it's largely considered to be the fair interpretation that you can't shoot a weapon at a target it has no chance of hitting.  The reason this is required is that GW have (in their infinite lack of wisdom) neglected to rule how to fire multiple weapons from the same model properly.

 

Gent has kindly quoted the FAQ answer that (somewhat) supports this above.