Who did it?

[Kais Klip]

Maybe if our primarch doesn’t keep leaving the airlock open after flushing out micro-managing xenos we wouldn’t have space vikings running aboard our throne damned flagship. I mean who the hell has lightning claws in this day and age?! And who has to clear up all this mess, shift after shift, and it’s not the damn Astartes no, its always “I have a meeting to go to” or “Primarchs don’t do mopping.”

So now I have to get up and leave this sweet hydra tat unfinished on this totally-not-Alpharius dude, go down that spooky hallway (because "lighted hallways arn't anonymous enough, or in the budget") to the armoury and get that Melta to teach space jesus over here who's totally not behind me the folly of notable heroics. But hey, if heresy were easy everyone would do it, right?

Sorry, its just been so difficult, I swear its as if Omegon isn’t himself lately…

[ninjasuperspy]

I kept telling myself while I was reading Scars "It's from Bjorn's POV, that guy would make putting his pants on into an Epic Saga."

[Yogi]

I kept telling myself while I was reading Scars "It's from Bjorn's POV, that guy would make putting his pants on into an Epic Saga."

 

It was on the dawn of the first day after the feast of the emperor's ascension, when battle was met. The newborn sun cast its light throughout my drinking chamber. Suffering the pain of a thousand hangovers, I cursed the arrogant star that pained me with glare when I saw them. My pants. It was then I knew what I would do. They offered no verbal challenge nor did they flinch as I stumbled bellowing praise to the allfather. They did not resist my attacks, as I grabbed them. A ruse perhaps. But what followed shall be passed down until the end of time. I had threaded my leg halfway through the pantleg when it struck a terrible unseen blow. I collapsed to the ground. Roaring the fury of Russ I tried again. Another blow the same as the first. This continued as whenever I lifted my leg I was struck down. It was when the sun was at its zenith I gained my first victory. 1 leg in the pants. However previous attacks had disoriented me. For I discovered it was the wrong leg...

 

Excerpt Saga of the pantaloons by Bjorn 

[Trevak Dal]

Alpha Legion are closer to jerks who ruin every good plot than to mary sues to my knowledge.

 

I'd rather have it be Shego who killed those Alpha Legion.

 

They are the True Legion of Tzeentch, because they are always plots within plots, within plots.

 

And they Have a Plan...

[Aias]

 

Alpha Legion are closer to jerks who ruin every good plot than to mary sues to my knowledge.

 

I'd rather have it be Shego who killed those Alpha Legion.

 

They are the True Legion of Tzeentch, because they are always plots within plots, within plots.

 

And they Have a Plan...

 

What are we, Cylons?

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Alpha Legion are closer to jerks who ruin every good plot than to mary sues to my knowledge.

 

I'd rather have it be Shego who killed those Alpha Legion.

 

They are the True Legion of Tzeentch, because they are always plots within plots, within plots.

 

And they Have a Plan...

 

What are we, Cylons?

 

Makes sense, don't it?

 

"I am Alpharius" "I am Alpharius" "I am Alpharius"

 

Alpha Legion are Cylons, we just keep seeing a heck of a lot of one copy, and only one of another.

 

They even have their own civil war when the Omegons betray the Alphariuses at Eskrador.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

Alpha Legion are closer to jerks who ruin every good plot than to mary sues to my knowledge.

 

I'd rather have it be Shego who killed those Alpha Legion.

 

They are the True Legion of Tzeentch, because they are always plots within plots, within plots.

 

And they Have a Plan...

 

What are we, Cylons?

 

I'm alright with that.  Via infiltration, they cause the downfall and near-annihilation of an entire culture.  Sounds good, right?

 

 

 

 

 

They even have their own civil war when the Omegons betray the Alphariuses at Eskrador.

 

I've been trumpeting this theory for years.  I'm glad it's finally gaining traction.

[Excessus]

 

 

They even have their own civil war when the Omegons betray the Alphariuses at Eskrador.

Where is that information from? Haven't heard about that before...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

As I mentioned, Excessus, it's a theory.  As I'm sure you're aware (but for the rest of the audience), the source of the Eskrador battle is the reporting of an untrustworthy Inquisitor, and it's a battle honor that the Ultramarines themselves don't claim.  With the new information that has come to light on the XX Legion, its leadership, and its tactics -- specifically the potential divide in the Legion as shown in The Serpent Beneath -- it is entirely possible that Eskrador was not Alpharius versus Guilliman, but instead Alpharius versus Omegon.

 

In particular, I'd like to point out that with the new lore from the Horus Heresy series, Alpharius & Omegon are noticeably shorter than the other Primarchs, while their Space Marines must be on average a little taller than other Marines in order for A&O to blend in with the rest of the Legion (even the IA:AL claims that Alpha Legionnaires were especially tall and strong).  So if Alpharius meets Guilliman in single combat, and Alpharius is shorter than Guilliman, why does the Eskrador journal depict them as having the same height and build when they meet?

 

So yeah.  I could go on, but I thought I posted the whole argument a while back on The Serpent's Lair. . . but then again, I haven't been around there in a good long while.

[Quixus]

Now if this is true, where is Guilliman? and how is interred on McCragge?

[Yogi]

As I mentioned, Excessus, it's a theory.  As I'm sure you're aware (but for the rest of the audience), the source of the Eskrador battle is the reporting of an untrustworthy Inquisitor, and it's a battle honor that the Ultramarines themselves don't claim.  With the new information that has come to light on the XX Legion, its leadership, and its tactics -- specifically the potential divide in the Legion as shown in The Serpent Beneath -- it is entirely possible that Eskrador was not Alpharius versus Guilliman, but instead Alpharius versus Omegon.

 

In particular, I'd like to point out that with the new lore from the Horus Heresy series, Alpharius & Omegon are noticeably shorter than the other Primarchs, while their Space Marines must be on average a little taller than other Marines in order for A&O to blend in with the rest of the Legion (even the IA:AL claims that Alpha Legionnaires were especially tall and strong).  So if Alpharius meets Guilliman in single combat, and Alpharius is shorter than Guilliman, why does the Eskrador journal depict them as having the same height and build when they meet?

 

So yeah.  I could go on, but I thought I posted the whole argument a while back on The Serpent's Lair. . . but then again, I haven't been around there in a good long while.

 

Other than the height thing (omegon didn't exist when the IA was written IIRC). The major premise of eskrador was that Alpharius defeated Roboute tactically through his own sacrifice as bait. So now the entire point of the story is then thrown out. And becomes Alpharius lured Omegon into battle died and cause Omegon great losses, but leaving Omegon to inherit the legion.. It seems like a complete failure. Doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I always held eskrador was pure fabrication though, I might be the wrong audience. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Now if this is true, where is Guilliman? and how is interred on McCragge?

 

Guilliman was wounded by Daemon Fulgrim, not Alpharius.

 

 

 

 

 

Other than the height thing (omegon didn't exist when the IA was written IIRC). The major premise of eskrador was that Alpharius defeated Roboute tactically through his own sacrifice as bait. So now the entire point of the story is then thrown out. And becomes Alpharius lured Omegon into battle died and cause Omegon great losses, but leaving Omegon to inherit the legion.. It seems like a complete failure. Doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I always held eskrador was pure fabrication though, I might be the wrong audience. 

 

I always figured the point of Eskrador was that Alpharius made Guilliman break his own standard operating procedure (ie, the newly-penned Codex) in order to achieve victory, since the My Tactics vs. Your Tactics debate is what created the rift between Guilliman and Alpharius in the first place.

 

But then Legion came out, and the entire dynamic changed.  I remember reading somewhere in an interview with Abnett that the Twin Primarchs thing was always intended by the original creators, hanging there in the background, but never shown.  If true, it repaints the original writing of Eskrador in a whole new light.

[Kol Saresk]

As I mentioned, Excessus, it's a theory. As I'm sure you're aware (but for the rest of the audience), the source of the Eskrador battle is the reporting of an untrustworthy Inquisitor, and it's a battle honor that the Ultramarines themselves don't claim. With the new information that has come to light on the XX Legion, its leadership, and its tactics -- specifically the potential divide in the Legion as shown in The Serpent Beneath -- it is entirely possible that Eskrador was not Alpharius versus Guilliman, but instead Alpharius versus Omegon.

 

In particular, I'd like to point out that with the new lore from the Horus Heresy series, Alpharius & Omegon are noticeably shorter than the other Primarchs, while their Space Marines must be on average a little taller than other Marines in order for A&O to blend in with the rest of the Legion (even the IA:AL claims that Alpha Legionnaires were especially tall and strong). So if Alpharius meets Guilliman in single combat, and Alpharius is shorter than Guilliman, why does the Eskrador journal depict them as having the same height and build when they meet?

 

So yeah. I could go on, but I thought I posted the whole argument a while back on The Serpent's Lair. . . but then again, I haven't been around there in a good long while.

Then again, what Legion wants to admit it killed a Primarch only to get its butt handed to them? It's not like the Imperium has ever censore information before. :P

[Kais Klip]

Most of them would willingly admit that though Kol, remember Night of the Wolf? Defeat, even that of a campaign, is a tiny sacrifice to kill one of the 20 greatest beings in the galaxy. 

[Kol Saresk]

You mean the Night of the Wolf that most of the Imperium does not know about and the Primarchs only talk about it amongst themselves? The same night that the World Eaters themselves barely talk about even though they believe they came out on top?

Not to mention the timetable that has two blacked out dates with the Wolves, one of which could very well be the Night of the Wolf.

And Prospero. Funny how no one remembers the Razing was the Wolves attacking a Loyalist Primarch and his Legion.

There's also the Missing Legions themselves, an event(or series of events; since we don't really know) so shameful that it had an erasure more complete than the Horus Heresy.

Speaking of the Horus Heresy, an event that the common Imperial citizen either doesn't know happen, or is equivalent to the idea of Satan, a myth perpetuated by the religion and is not really believed to be fact.

And then you get the daemons and the length the Inquisition goes to cover that up from mind erasure to execution of loyal subjects to even whole-scale Exterminatus and red ink across the ledger.

Nope, the upright, perfect, noble, honorable and courageous Ultramarines would never ever ever ever ever think of "just forgetting" a single battle.

[Conn Eremon]

Other than the height thing (omegon didn't exist when the IA was written IIRC).

There was an interview when Legion came out, and it has been a while so I admit my memory may be faulty on this, that pretty much outright stated that Abnett was told, by the masters themselves, about the twins, as something that had always been a part of the fluff.

 

I remember a lot who were defiant against that idea, but I have been okay with it. All the sources where such a thing could have come to light, such as the IA articles, were written from the perspectives of those who would not know. What few Alpha Legion sources we had needn't have made mention either, even though the narrators must have known. Like the II and XI, just because the information is known by the characters, doesn't mean that the readers will be able to get it from them.

 

Basically, the realization that there were twin Primarchs was only a revelation to us, the readers, because we never figured it out from the older material, which had remarkably subtle hints, if any.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Other than the height thing (omegon didn't exist when the IA was written IIRC).

There was an interview when Legion came out, and it has been a while so I admit my memory may be faulty on this, that pretty much outright stated that Abnett was told, by the masters themselves, about the twins, as something that had always been a part of the fluff.

 

I remember a lot who were defiant against that idea, but I have been okay with it. All the sources where such a thing could have come to light, such as the IA articles, were written from the perspectives of those who would not know. What few Alpha Legion sources we had needn't have made mention either, even though the narrators must have known. Like the II and XI, just because the information is known by the characters, doesn't mean that the readers will be able to get it from them.

 

Basically, the realization that there were twin Primarchs was only a revelation to us, the readers, because we never figured it out from the older material, which had remarkably subtle hints, if any.

 

 

It also doesn't help that any hints that might be in something like the IA article may have been largely misinterpreted by the fanbase. Case in point(and I know I use it a lot but its the one I'm most familiar with), the Night Lords IA. Common misinterpretation says "Impossible for them to have been at Istvaan V" and "Impossible for Nostramo to have been destroyed twenty years before the Heresy."

 

Reality: "The Night Lords made their allegiance well-known when they declared it. It does not say where they were or were not."

 

"The IA article says that after Nostramo, the Night Lords went on a rampage across the unknown sectors of the galaxy, leaving few civilized worlds intact. Meaning the sequence of events was not Nostramo BAM! Heresy."

[Yogi]

I always figured the point of Eskrador was that Alpharius made Guilliman break his own standard operating procedure (ie, the newly-penned Codex) in order to achieve victory, since the My Tactics vs. Your Tactics debate is what created the rift between Guilliman and Alpharius in the first place.

 

But then Legion came out, and the entire dynamic changed.  I remember reading somewhere in an interview with Abnett that the Twin Primarchs thing was always intended by the original creators, hanging there in the background, but never shown.  If true, it repaints the original writing of Eskrador in a whole new light.

 

Yeah breaking his own standard operating procedure, winning tactically. That's what I meant.

 

As you and cormac point out there is an Abnett interview where he says Alan Merrett head of Lore told him Alpha legion has twin Primarchs. I also remember it. But this is the same GW that doesn't have this stuff all written down anywhere as ADB has said. There is no holy book to consult. No lore bible. Just what has been written and whatever Merrett says. That fact means to me its a lot less organised then you are implying. Cool hooks are written with no real concern if they are revisited or retconned.

 

But anyway what I was trying to ask is what would be the point of appropriating Eskrador to Omegons doing? What about this makes you think its good idea? It seems to me the story becomes flat and boring. Instead of a hazy possibly untrue tale of a primarchs death while demonstrating tactical superiority/vindication. It becomes, Omegon won with many losses. There is no vindication. The story loses a lot of its flavor. 

 

Im just trying to figure out why you like appropriating eskrador to the civil war so much. From my perspective it doesn't seem interesting. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're not looking at this Alpha Legion-y enough, Yogi.  Who ever said that Omegon is the one who won the duel?

 

IF -- and that's supposed to be in all-caps -- the Alpha Legion does split into an overt civil war as Serpent Beneath suggested might occur, then both sides are going to claim to be the "real" Alpha Legion.  Which side was likely playing at being Ultramarines?  Arguments can be posed for either Twin.  If anything, in true Alpha Legion fashion, this theory being true brings up more questions than an answers.  Which Primarch died?  Which side was Loyal, and which Traitor?  We know some of the Traitors remain thanks to the Alphas continuing to exist as a Chaos Marine force into M41, but what happened to the Loyal Alphas?  Were they all killed?  Dispersed?  Splintered and became Second Founding Chapters purportedly of the Ultramarines?  The Alpha Legion splitting in a microcosm of the Heresy itself isn't flat and boring, it provides drama, character, and back story to one of the least written-about Legions.

 

That being said, the entire Eskrador story is just as likely a fabrication, though whether it was made to fool Inquisitor Kravin or made by Kravin to fool the rest of the Inquisition is a whole other can of worms for which we just don't have any other information.

[Yogi]

The AL civil war idea isn't boring to me. Appropriating Eskrador for it is.  

 

Personally with Legion I don't find any of the Alpha Legion to be loyalists. Wiping out humanity to save the rest of the galaxy from chaos has no loyalty to the Imperium. Saving the galaxy for xenos has no real purpose. Defeating Chaos has no purpose if there aren't any humans left. 

 

But assuming they did actually consider themselves loyalists, as I thought when I first read legion, the obvious answer is that the "loyalists"

-died

-went native to chaos

-fell to despair that their plan failed

-attempted some new plan

-attempted to reintegrate into the imperium under another name

-Became an Istvaanite faction (strengthening the imperium through conflict)

 

I like to think they all died in despair. And only the true traitors remain. 

 

As for which side, I kinda feel like it doesn't even matter. A and O are pretty damn similar. I think O in serpents beneath was instigating the civil war, leaning towards loyalism. But I can't remember for sure. 

 

Forge World shall hopefully shed some light in a good way on all of this. 

 

"Real" Alpha legion to me are the ones that spat on their oaths for pride and the chance to demonstrate their superiority to their brothers in the only contest that matters war. So essentially at this point neither A nor O are "real" anyway. 

 

I get why you like it now.

[Aegnor]

I don't think Oregon is starting the Al civil war, or whatever it is going to be, is even due to any genuine philosophical difference with Alpharius. It's because it's part of the strategy the Alpha Legion undertook at the end of Legion. They're going to sabotage either side to ensure the optimal version of the Heresy they've imagined/had revealed as a vision comes to pass.

 

One thing they would have known is that they are dealing with forces who can read minds etc, and where their scope for treachery will be constrained by the level of scrutiny they'll be under and by the level of ability of those they seek to fool (inc Horus etc). So any treachery has to be not just plausibly deniable but also something whoever is dealing with Horus etc HAS NO ACTION KNOWLEDGE of. Really, the A&O could never even discuss it explicitly. Alpharius would have said "I'll be the one to deal directly with Horus and Erects etc". And Oregon would have taken it as understood that his role then was, along with his other roles, to sabotage Alpharius in circumstances where Alpharius couldn't evade having to do what he was told. If anyone worked out what was happening, it would look like Alpharius was a fool who had missed the "dagger at his back" rather than playing both sides.

 

Golden rule of deception, if you can't conceal something, you need to provide a plausible and (relatively) benign explanation.

[Wade Garrett]

Eskrador was a defeat for the Ultramarines?

 

IA: Alpha Legion states that the Ultramarines got so fed up with all the insurgency stuff the XX were pulling they decided to apply Remark xxxvii, Chapter XIX of the Codex Astartes , which reads as follows (all rise for the word of Roboute):

 

"Sometimes, it is necessary to take off into orbit and bombard the site with mass drivers and cyclonic torpedoes. It is the only means by which certainty may be gained." (You may now be seated)

 

Looked at LOGISTICALLY, this means that whatever casualties the XIII suffered, the XX lost 100% of everything they committed to that particular fight.

 

Truly, a victory worthy of engraving on their armor for all time.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall saying "defeat" specifically. I do recall saying they got their butts handed to them, which does concur with the IA article. After "Alpharius" was "killed", the Alpha Legion pushed back the Ultramarines across the board. So far that they had to resort to an orbital bombardment.

 

Yep. "Victory". Rings hollow when you get it by throwing a temper tantrum, doesn't it.

[Wade Garrett]

Yep. "Victory". Rings hollow when you get it by throwing a temper tantrum, doesn't it.

"Nope. Seems like it's ringing pretty darn solid to me!"

-Angron

 

Also, intelligent use of all the assets at one's disposal =/= throwing a temper tantrum.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In Kol's defense of that statement, Wade, the IA does make it sound as if the Ultras pulled back to orbit and conducted bomardment out of exasperation because they, you know, couldn't beat the Alpha Legion on the ground.  Plus, the main battlefield was made out to be a combination of wadis and mountains with plenty of places to hide, and from what I remember -- I don't have the book near at the hand at the moment -- they didn't conduct Exterminatus, just executed a "standard" orbital bombardment.  Thus, it is entirely possible that the Alpha Legion elements (or at least a fraction of such) committed to Eskrador survived.