Primarch 1 on 1 tabletop tournament: How do they stack up?

[b1soul]

I'm talking about Forge World tabletop rules of course...

So far we have rules for 12 pimarhcs: Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius

(6 primarchs still pending, codenames: Bobbie, Bird Boy, Dog Man, Lion-O, I am Temujin, Maggie)

How do the available primarchs match up to each other 1 on 1 on the tabletop? How'd you rank them? Anyone wanna take a crack at any of the following match-ups, listed below for your convenience? Any observations to share?

Horus vs. (Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Ferrus vs. (Horus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Fulgrim vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Vulkan vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Dorn vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Perturabo vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Mortarion vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Lorgar vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Curze vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Angron, Corax, Alpharius)

Angron vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Corax, Alpharius)

Corax vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Alpharius)

Alpharius vs. (Horus, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar, Curze, Angron, Corax)

Evidently there are a ton of potential match-ups. (12*11)/2=66 if my math hasn't completely gone to .

Some obviously intriguing battles: Corax vs. Curze, Dorn vs. Perturabo, Dorn vs. Curze, Angron vs. Horus, Mortarion vs. Curze, Fulgrim vs. Ferrus, Ferrus vs. Vulkan. Anyone wanna give their thoughts?

[Spaz431]

On the overall rules wise, Horus actually does better than any of them thus far.

[b1soul]

On the overall rules wise, Horus actually does better than any of them thus far.

 

Interesting...why is that? From a rules perspective that is 

[Spaz431]

Horus has two CCW and can use thm both in cc. He denies attacks or stat modifiers on a 3+. Any unsaved wound in cc caused by his claw cause -1S & -1WS till end of game and is cumulative.

WS8 BS5 S7 T6 W6 I6 A5 LD10 Sv2+ 3++

[FunkyMonkey]

I heard Lorgar Transfigured with the right psyker powers is a beast in his own right.

[Spaz431]

Beast or a Warmaster? Which do you choose?

[Brofist]

You know who's surprisingly good in close combat? Logar transfigured. You get to pick any 3 powers from Telepathy and Telekinesis. Picking Terrify, Invisibility, and Hallucination opens up a pretty funny combo: 

 

Invisibility is a blessing, so it's basically guaranteed to work with Logar's 3d6 pick the lowest ability. Anything that charges Logar then get no charge bonuses and counts as WS1. That means other primarchs need 5+ to hit in CC. Logar's Dark Fortune lets him re-roll all enemy 5s and 6s once per game. His mace hits on a 3+, ignores all armor, and has concussive (so it lowers potential counter attacks to I1). That basically guarantees a loss in the first round of assault for the enemy primarch. If Logar manages to get off a Terrify then the target Prinmarch looses the combat with a ~2 penalty and probably gets wiped because Logar has the crusader special rule.

[AfroCampbell]

I think it would be fair to say Mortarion is probs the toughest, and can shrug off wounds the most easily. but maybe Vulkan being the most well defended. another thing to note is that Kurze has the insane ability to ignore an invul save with his wee ninja stars when shooting, so potentially a few free wounds knocked off his opponent before he even enters combat. very Night Lord style. I think Alpharius is the troll-king of the Primarchs. so many funny options with his rule of hiding amongst the squads.

[helterskelter]

Lorenzen did a straight fight mathhammer between corax and curze in the book 3 primarchs revealed thread in news. Quick summary, it was no charges, straight up, one on one and curze wins/holds the advantage

[b1soul]

With regard to "Logar Transfigured", is that supposed to refer to Lorgar when golden light surrounds him as in his fight with Corax?

Or is it more a reflection of his condition after the events of Aurelian (he goes from indecisive wimp to dedicated badass in a pretty short span of time)

I'm guessing it would have to be the former as Extermination covers the period during which Lorgar faces Coraz

Lorenzen did a straight fight mathhammer between corax and curze in the book 3 primarchs revealed thread in news. Quick summary, it was no charges, straight up, one on one and curze wins/holds the advantage

Not surprised as so many people have a for Curze

His fans have been saying he dominates Corax ever since the release of First Heretic, in which he prevent Corax from gutting Lorgar

[helterskelter]

Lorenzen did a straight fight mathhammer between corax and curze in the book 3 primarchs revealed thread in news. Quick summary, it was no charges, straight up, one on one and curze wins/holds the advantage

this is totally based on stats and not on fluff..

 

corax vs curze.

 

2/3rds of curzes attacks hit so 4 hits, wounds on 4's rerolling.. corax has a 5++

1/2 of corax's attacks hit so averaging his d3 extra attacks (in a vacuum so no charges) 4 hits, wounds on 4's rerolling with curze having a 4++ save..

 

Curze mathematically wins this based on better weapon skill and better invun.. corax's best chance is scourge (d3 attacks).. if he uses shadow walk Curze hits on 4's but still has a better invun with the same number of attacks and same chance to wound.

 

-----------------------------

 

Here you go guys, and I am a fan of both these primarchs. In fact they are my top two. I think It's due to them being a twisted yin yang type thing,

[b1soul]

 

Curze mathematically wins this based on better weapon skill and better invun.. corax's best chance is scourge (d3 attacks).. if he uses shadow walk Curze hits on 4's but still has a better invun with the same number of attacks and same chance to wound.

 

How does Corax's extra attack factor in? I believe Curze is A2 and Corax is A3? Could be misremembering 

[Moonstalker]

 

You know who's surprisingly good in close combat? Logar transfigured. You get to pick any 3 powers from Telepathy and Telekinesis. Picking Terrify, Invisibility, and Hallucination opens up a pretty funny combo: 

 

Invisibility is a blessing, so it's basically guaranteed to work with Logar's 3d6 pick the lowest ability. Anything that charges Logar then get no charge bonuses and counts as WS1. That means other primarchs need 5+ to hit in CC. Logar's Dark Fortune lets him re-roll all enemy 5s and 6s once per game. His mace hits on a 3+, ignores all armor, and has concussive (so it lowers potential counter attacks to I1). That basically guarantees a loss in the first round of assault for the enemy primarch. If Logar manages to get off a Terrify then the target Prinmarch looses the combat with a ~2 penalty and probably gets wiped because Logar has the crusader special rule.

 

The potential counter-attacks will strike simul, Concussive will only matter in subsequent rounds of combat.  Horus, at least, ignores those Psychic powers on a 3+ (a power that makes him WS1 - adversely modifying his characteristic profile - and a malediction, either can be negated by his armor).  On turn 1, he can use the Talon to go simul at initiative.  If Lorgar gets one wound through to make him hit at I1, he can just swap to World Breaker.  If Lorgar's psychic trickery does not work, then Horus is hitting on 3+ with his WS8 while Lorgar hits on 4s with his WS6.  And Horus gets an extra wound and attack, along with a better invul.

 

One thing I've heard bandied about is that losing a wound counts as 'adversely modifying his characteristic profile,' and so if he fails an armor save he gets a 3+ save against actually losing the wound.  Can anyone confirm/deny?  Even if this rule doesn't work this way, I still think Horus is at the top of the list for dueling champion.

 

I think Vulkan is also a good contender in this fight, mostly due to Adamantium Will, Blood of Fire (reroll failed Deny the Witch tests), and his sheer toughness.  T7, 2+/3++, and rerolling failed IWND tests.

[Massaen]

Your not modifying it - I remember reading the reason why somewhere... Will dig around for it

[Moonstalker]

Your not modifying it - I remember reading the reason why somewhere... Will dig around for it

 

I can buy the idea that it works that way.  BRB page 15, "Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit.  Reduce that model's Wounds by 1.  If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty."  So the process of taking a wound definitely seems like a modification of the characteristic profile.  I'm also not sure that it counts as a save, I think it might be more like Feel No Pain in that regard - it 'negates' an effect, it's not defined as an armor/cover/invul save.

 

Rules as written, I think it might actually work that way, but I am really not sure that this is what they intended.

[fission]

Can someone do the Math for Curze versus Vulkan ?

 

And also it would be cool to see the math for each primarch battle the happened during the Heresy and after ...

[Moonstalker]

Can someone do the Math for Curze versus Vulkan ?

 

And also it would be cool to see the math for each primarch battle the happened during the Heresy and after ...

 

Sure.  I can guess before I begin that Curze is gonna lose - he's really more for destroying infantry squads than dueling Primarchs.  But let's see how much he loses by.

 

Curze strikes first at I7, swinging at WS8 with 6 attacks.  Hitting on 3+, he lands 4 of those attacks, and then needs 5+ to wound with his S6 vs Vulkan's T7.  1.333 wounds on the first go around, and then another .888 from the Shred reroll.  Total of 2.221 wounds inflicted per assault phase.  Vulcan will succeed in 1.480 of his 3+ invuls, meaning he will take 0.740 wounds per turn.

 

 

Striking back at I5 with 4 attacks, Vulkan should hit with 2 of them and proceed to wound with 1.666 of them.  Curze, having only a 4+ invul, will only save 0.833 of them.

 

So, Vulkan comes out ahead in the damage dealing department.  To make matters worse, Vulkan gets to reroll his failed IWND rolls, so he will regain 0.555 wounds per turn while Curze only regains 0.333.

 

The only real thing I haven't worked out for this is Curze's ability to hit and run, and his extra Hammer of Wrath attacks.  Given their lack of AP, I don't anticipate that his Hammer of Wrath attacks will amount to much, but the extra attack for charging every other assault phase may even things up a little.  In a straight slug-fest, though, Vulkan wins.

[DuskRaider]

The problem with Primarchs like Mortarion, Dorn, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker is... they have Unwieldy. So you have a Primarch hitting at Initiative 1. Kind of gimps them, IMO.

[Moonstalker]

The problem with Primarchs like Mortarion, Dorn, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker is... they have Unwieldy. So you have a Primarch hitting at Initiative 1. Kind of gimps them, IMO.

 

I don't really agree.  With their high toughness, saves, and EW, they aren't going to die easily to a mass of tac marines, and they'll strike simul with the threatening stuff (a bunch of terminators with powerfists).  In a duel, I don't think any of the Primarchs has the damage output for a one turn kill on another.  So, let's do a lore matchup - Fulgrim vs Ferrus.  We know how it turns out in the fluff, how does it turn out on the tabletop?

 

Fulgrim strikes first with blinding speed at I8, and receives 3 bonus attacks for his Sublime Swordsman rule.  With a total of 8 attacks, he hits with 5.333 of them, and then wounds with 1.777 of them.  Ferrus will save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.792 wounds get through.

 

Assuming he still has Forgebreaker, he strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting with 2 and wounding with 1.666 of them.  Fulgrim will similarly save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.555 get through.  If Ferrus must fight with his bare hands, he is left with only 1.333 wounds and Fulgrim only fails to save 0.444 wounds.

 

As for imponderables... if Ferrus is especially unlucky, Fulgrim will pass one of his saves with a 6, and then Ferrus will fail his Initiative test (by rolling a 6), leaving him blinded.  The chances of that happening in any given assault phase a pretty miniscule.  However, if Fulgrim fails any of his armor sauves against Ferrus while Ferrus is wielding Forgebreaker, Fulgrim will not only strike second in the next round of combat but he will lose the extra attacks from Sublime Swordsman.  Approximately halving his damage output gives the edge to Ferrus, but you could really only expect this to happen half the time - you could probably even it out by thinking of Fulgrim's output as being 1/4 lower, at 0.594-ish wounds per turn.  Overall, things look like they will turn out exactly as they did in the lore - Ferrus is an artisan, not a fighter.

[Spaz431]

Fight Fair? Fight Fair? My Primarch knows not the idea, nor will he deign to consider it!

[helterskelter]

Cheers for doing these kitwulfen! It's like an episode of deadliest warrior :D

[fission]

Kitwulfen thanks for the answer ;)

 

A good test woul be. To face primarch with superenemies like Carnifex , Imperial Knights ..but that's for an other thread ;)

[b1soul]

The only real thing I haven't worked out for this is Curze's ability to hit and run, and his extra Hammer of Wrath attacks.  Given their lack of AP, I don't anticipate that his Hammer of Wrath attacks will amount to much, but the extra attack for charging every other assault phase may even things up a little.  In a straight slug-fest, though, Vulkan wins.

 

 

 i believe this might be in line with the fluff as when Curze repeatedly puts down Vulkan in Unremembered Empire, Vulkan has lost his wits after burning up during atmospheric re-entry (would manifest as lower WS I think) and he's fighting with gear cobbled together from Guiliiman's exotic weapon collection (which I'm pretty sure is inferior to primarch battle armour and wargear)

 

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I rolled it out and got these as the 3 best:

#1 Horus

#2 Angron

#3 Curze

But it dosent really matter in the long run as most of them take longer to kill each other than there are rounds of combat.

[Sevatar]

 

The problem with Primarchs like Mortarion, Dorn, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker is... they have Unwieldy. So you have a Primarch hitting at Initiative 1. Kind of gimps them, IMO.

 

I don't really agree.  With their high toughness, saves, and EW, they aren't going to die easily to a mass of tac marines, and they'll strike simul with the threatening stuff (a bunch of terminators with powerfists).  In a duel, I don't think any of the Primarchs has the damage output for a one turn kill on another.  So, let's do a lore matchup - Fulgrim vs Ferrus.  We know how it turns out in the fluff, how does it turn out on the tabletop?

 

Fulgrim strikes first with blinding speed at I8, and receives 3 bonus attacks for his Sublime Swordsman rule.  With a total of 8 attacks, he hits with 5.333 of them, and then wounds with 1.777 of them.  Ferrus will save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.792 wounds get through.

 

Assuming he still has Forgebreaker, he strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting with 2 and wounding with 1.666 of them.  Fulgrim will similarly save 2/3 of them, meaning 0.555 get through.  If Ferrus must fight with his bare hands, he is left with only 1.333 wounds and Fulgrim only fails to save 0.444 wounds.

 

As for imponderables... if Ferrus is especially unlucky, Fulgrim will pass one of his saves with a 6, and then Ferrus will fail his Initiative test (by rolling a 6), leaving him blinded.  The chances of that happening in any given assault phase a pretty miniscule.  However, if Fulgrim fails any of his armor sauves against Ferrus while Ferrus is wielding Forgebreaker, Fulgrim will not only strike second in the next round of combat but he will lose the extra attacks from Sublime Swordsman.  Approximately halving his damage output gives the edge to Ferrus, but you could really only expect this to happen half the time - you could probably even it out by thinking of Fulgrim's output as being 1/4 lower, at 0.594-ish wounds per turn.  Overall, things look like they will turn out exactly as they did in the lore - Ferrus is an artisan, not a fighter.

Have you factored in Strikedown? Very important as it needs Fulgrims initiative. Also, the Servo Arm gives him 5 attacks. So, assuming strike down every round, Ferrus will attack before Fulgrim, then do a Servo Arm attack at I1