Sception Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 So, has anyone faced the new guard yet? Got any thoughts on them? The main thing I'm worried about at the moment is their master of the fleet HQ attachment. They can take 2 per detachment, and each imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to enemy reserve rolls. At 2k points, four of them can basically keep all of your reserves from arriving until the game is practically over - Hope you weren't relying on heldrakes (or outflanking slaaneshi lords, or deep striking terminators or daemons, etc) to do anything for you against them. When combined with Inquisitorial servo-skulls, the new guard can essentially hard counter all reserves, infiltration, and scouting. Considering that those kind of deployment options bring a lot of fun and interactivity to the game, I'm pretty disappointed to see this. Would much rather have seen guard gain more interceptor options as an interactive counter to enemy reserves rather than just preventing you from deploying them altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 So, has anyone faced the new guard yet? Got any thoughts on them? The main thing I'm worried about at the moment is their master of the fleet HQ attachment. They can take 2 per detachment, and each imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to enemy reserve rolls. At 2k points, four of them can basically keep all of your reserves from arriving until the game is practically over - Hope you weren't relying on heldrakes (or outflanking slaaneshi lords, or deep striking terminators or daemons, etc) to do anything for you against them. When combined with Inquisitorial servo-skulls, the new guard can essentially hard counter all reserves, infiltration, and scouting. Considering that those kind of deployment options bring a lot of fun and interactivity to the game, I'm pretty disappointed to see this. Would much rather have seen guard gain more interceptor options as an interactive counter to enemy reserves rather than just preventing you from deploying them altogether. I havent faced them myself, but there seems to be a number of things that seem way too good and we might have a new Tau on our hands...the Orders alone are ridiculous, giving your lascannon platoon ignore cover, re-rolls and whatnot along with what you mentioned makes all those hate toward GW for our poor codex flare up again. We've just dropped down a few more ranks in the 6th ed competitiveness pecking order... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 So, has anyone faced the new guard yet? Got any thoughts on them? The main thing I'm worried about at the moment is their master of the fleet HQ attachment. They can take 2 per detachment, and each imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to enemy reserve rolls. At 2k points, four of them can basically keep all of your reserves from arriving until the game is practically over - Hope you weren't relying on heldrakes (or outflanking slaaneshi lords, or deep striking terminators or daemons, etc) to do anything for you against them. When combined with Inquisitorial servo-skulls, the new guard can essentially hard counter all reserves, infiltration, and scouting. Considering that those kind of deployment options bring a lot of fun and interactivity to the game, I'm pretty disappointed to see this. Would much rather have seen guard gain more interceptor options as an interactive counter to enemy reserves rather than just preventing you from deploying them altogether. Makes Crimson Slaughter all that much better since they can get Divination and try for Scryer's Gaze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Well, that utterly destroys my mayhem pack list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Makes Crimson Slaughter all that much better since they can get Divination and try for Scryer's Gaze. Not really not. This makes the Crimson Slaughter mandatory, mandatory things are not fun and speak volumes of bad design in a tabletop game. I think that the order of killing is the following: - Command Squads (to invalidate orders) - Anti-Flyer units - Tanks But the problem is that all the above is bubble-wrapped by blobs of infantry and the new Conscripts with a Priest are the hot and shiny new cultists, which actually pack a punch and have the numbers to even outclass our cheap alternative. So far I think we are low on counters to effectively fight the Imperial Guard without some tailored lists. Be it CSM or CD rely on reserved to Deep Strike many units or fly them in. So even my anti-horde tactic, aka Flamers of Tzeentch will be hard to execute since I will have a permanent debuff to my reserve roles, forcing me to waste Mastery Levels on Scryer's Gaze. But this is Tzeentch, the rest of the daemons will have an even rougher time to get on board. My fear is at this moment the following: Imperial Guard main, Sisters of Battle ally, Inquisition as detachment. This composition not only ruins all the psychic deathstars and elements of an army but has nigh no problems when comes to scouting, infiltration and deep strike units and has a massive volume of fire, with cheap vehicles to boot. All in all, things look very grim for Team Chaos. The AM is on par with the power level of the Eldar and Tau, exceeding them in some points. Now I have won battles against those armies but unfortunately it was either against not tournament grade lists or combined armies, those ripped my chaos in pieces by turn three. Add to that SM allies, Tau allies, Eldar allies, Knights and the rest of the imperial goodies and up the sudden we will see a dozen armies with massive rerolls due to the Divination from the cheap Primaris Psykers. Ah, Machine Spirit on a Knight Paladin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I guess puppet master and hallucination are our best weapons, so Belakor seems like good bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 there will be fewer vendettas around , so if someone doesn't play with FW , our flying stuff gets better. There is a lot of no cover, plasma , ap 3 stuff which doesn't change much about the stuff we used before and doesn't make stuff which was bad suddenly better. Re-rolls mean that bs3 does not hurt them as much and there will be more av 14 stuff around , which kind of a hurts us as we don't have melta options and long range support[aka oblits] will be overloaded . All in all , not much changes for us [no new builds , no nerfing of good stuff from other armies to make our stuff suddenly good] . It is an ok codex , but no where near what eldar or tau can do . And they only get better with ally added . IG can now easily have re-rolls on most of their units. the key to beating them is higher fire power[we can't realy do that] coupled with an ability to snipe the psykers/inq and Command Sections that give out the buffs[barrage , precision shots , LoS ignoring stuff]. With FW IG get very decent , very good as ally force. As they bring cheap , troops that can buff themselfs with good fire power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I guess we could just get an allied Eradicator or Wyvern with some random guardsmen to back it up. Both these tanks can easily take care of enemy command squads in a single turn. Also, Noise Marines could do the same thing as an Eradicator. I think the big problem is that GW forgot to give us any artillery, instead forcing us to rely on Deep Strike and the Heldrake to get at hidden enemies. And now IG have a hard counter to both deep strike and flyers, meaning we have nothing that can get to hidden stuff at all. It sad that most problems that crop up for CSM these days is solved by "Don't play CSM". Or, "use allies" as it is more commonly known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 The only reason to take a command squad over Yarrik that I can see is Officer of the Fleet shenanigans. Getting rid of Yarrik could be a lot of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 It sad that most problems that crop up for CSM these days is solved by "Don't play CSM" Yep, the new guard unfortunately really seem to hammer that home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Watched a battle report on Frontline Gaming between Chaos and new Guard - It was disgusting. Chaos never came within 24 inches, only Be'Lakor did, but they have so much ignore cover bull**** at the moment he got fried pretty quick. Not looking good...the have a hard counter to the most things we throw at them. Pretty sure Daemons are screwed as well, shrouded means nothing when your lascannons have ignore cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 demons have the star and enough FMC , so when FW is not played they can be realy fast near with use of dogs . with fewer vendettas taken they will do specialy good and they have a very good anti blob/hide unit option in form of ally helldrakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 demons have the star and enough FMC , so when FW is not played they can be realy fast near with use of dogs . with fewer vendettas taken they will do specialy good and they have a very good anti blob/hide unit option in form of ally helldrakes. Possible, Daemons definitely seem less screwed than CSM....yet not even the mighty Heldrake seemed to stand a chance against the twin-linked / ignore cover that was spread throughout the army. It got killed off without doing any damage from what I remember. Who knows, as with most new Codex releases it takes a while for armies to come to grips with the new kids. Time will tell I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 the helldrake doesn't jink , it has a inv [better]. And if we are talking about the spiky bits game , then I must say the chaos list was a very fluffy one . Also Belfegor was brutaly unlucky with his psychic powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 the helldrake doesn't jink , it has a inv [better]. And if we are talking about the spiky bits game , then I must say the chaos list was a very fluffy one . Also Belfegor was brutaly unlucky with his psychic powers. Im not sure we're talking about the same Batrep, but anyway. I think the issue is mostly that IG can field a ton of cheap Divination Psykers so whenever Be'Lakor tries to pull off a test they pretty much have an army-wide 4+ DTW. The Helldrake does have a 5++, which is fine if he has to make only a couple of saves, but when it has to make tons of saves against twin-linked everything it becomes an issue, as with most things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 the helldrake doesn't jink , it has a inv [better]. And if we are talking about the spiky bits game , then I must say the chaos list was a very fluffy one . Also Belfegor was brutaly unlucky with his psychic powers. Im not sure we're talking about the same Batrep, but anyway. I think the issue is mostly that IG can field a ton of cheap Divination Psykers so whenever Be'Lakor tries to pull off a test they pretty much have an army-wide 4+ DTW. The Helldrake does have a 5++, which is fine if he has to make only a couple of saves, but when it has to make tons of saves against twin-linked everything it becomes an issue, as with most things. If Belakor is casting, there is no way they should be better than 5+ DTW. There is not real way to give Guard Adamantine Will, and Belakor will always be the better psyker, so the IG should have only had a 5+. Sounds like the chaos player also made a couple of rule mistakes from the comments, so I'm not too impressed with his playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 the helldrake doesn't jink , it has a inv [better]. And if we are talking about the spiky bits game , then I must say the chaos list was a very fluffy one . Also Belfegor was brutaly unlucky with his psychic powers. Im not sure we're talking about the same Batrep, but anyway. I think the issue is mostly that IG can field a ton of cheap Divination Psykers so whenever Be'Lakor tries to pull off a test they pretty much have an army-wide 4+ DTW. The Helldrake does have a 5++, which is fine if he has to make only a couple of saves, but when it has to make tons of saves against twin-linked everything it becomes an issue, as with most things. If Belakor is casting, there is no way they should be better than 5+ DTW. There is not real way to give Guard Adamantine Will, and Belakor will always be the better psyker, so the IG should have only had a 5+. Sounds like the chaos player also made a couple of rule mistakes from the comments, so I'm not too impressed with his playing. Ahh I see they posted a re-match - much closer game, though still a chaos loss. Yeah I just read through the comments and it does seem like the dude was too impatient and aggressive with him. Puppetmaster seemed to do the trick though, so a I suppose he needs a little more finesse to be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Yea, that seems to be a common Belakor mistake, rushing him forward in front of the enemy guns. I've seen a couple local guys make the same mistake, and get shot down in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I've only ever faced Guard in Killteam, and it was pretty fun-it went down like the pictures in our codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 While I haven't faced the new guard yet, I am very much interested in using them as allies to represent my traitor guard forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I know this is unlikely, but Im hoping the new IA book with it's Renegade updates will at least give us SOME parallels to the new Guard. Perhaps some Cheap Divination Psykers? Some orders to at least give us an ounce of tactical flexibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 About divination. I noticed some time ago , that unless am taking a biker/spawnstar there aren't many units worth using divination on in a chaos list. Stuff either works fine without it or has to few attacks going off to make re-rolls worth it . We also don't run multi shot [well as in good ones] low ap units that can benefit from the no cover power or the +4inv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I think divination is more usefull on our daemonic possessed units all being bs3. Perhaps ons forgefiends? Also im quite heavy on running full squads of oblits so twinlinked / ignore cover could work well on them I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 8 shots isn't that much to twin link[not that it doesn't make it better of course it does] , compering to re-rolling shots from weapons that have pseudo rending or units that have 3+special/heavy weapons inside[and ignore cover]. A unit of vets with a plasma priest re-rolled up can do some hurt. To get the same load outs we would have to run something like chosen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valaskjalf Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Perhaps the 4+ power will be good on spawn or cultists. The other one is of course misfortune on an enemy deathstar which could be handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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