curt1893 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 So, with the new codex and changes to Pask, I sat down and considered how to field him. I always enjoyed using him in the Heavy Support slot, but since he's found a new home in HQ's, it becomes a greater decision. I started crunching some numbers and wanted to share the results. I ran a sample of 3000 separate simulations to get the best distribution. The situation: Pask with Punisher gatling cannon (no other weapons were considered, so they would be a plus) Warlord trait: Old Grudge (assumed to the vehicle you are firing at) The data shows the chance that you would wreck an enemy vehicle shooting at the corresponding Armor Value facing. The calculations take into account him only re-rolling 1's to hit (since I read preferred enemy as to not work with armor pens), the addition of rending to the armor pen (1d3) on an armor pen of 6, standard cover saves. For the flyers, I just assumed they would be taking a 5+ jink save. It seems anything AV10 would get smoked regardless of cover. The high percentages come from the high volume of glances and pens. If you can catch AV13's out in the open, they don't stand much of a chance either. All of this makes it hard for me not to take Pask as my warlord, even if I have to pay almost 300 points for him and his sister tank (which wasn't even included in this calculation.) The simulation was done using a Python script, which I would make available to anyone who wanted it. Any comments or suggestion? Sorry if the image isn't showing or is too small. This is my first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 While I'm thinking a Vanquisher for now, that is some really compelling stuff for a Punisher. I'm seriously going to have to mull over this. The only thing holding me back from giving it a whirl is that I don't own any Punishers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Cato Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 thats.... a lot of dakka. You say % wrecked. Is that from 3 HP to 0? or just the chance to pen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt1893 Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 thats.... a lot of dakka. You say % wrecked. Is that from 3 HP to 0? or just the chance to pen? Both sort of. In the simulation, if a hit caused a pen, then rolled a 5 or 6, it was considered a wreck. If it got pens but less than 5 on the table, it still counted as a glance and then when those reached 3 it was considered a wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Hmm and this doesnt even take into account that Pask has to take some cheerleader support who can take the same type of Leman Russ (so these result would be even higher). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 the question is, is it worth it? how does a normal punisher fare? and a normal command punisher? personally i think pask comes at a hefty cost for what he brings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I dunno, Pask seems pretty insane, and taking those tanks in the HQ slot frees up a heavy slot rather handily -- pretty much definitely worth it if you were going to take the tanks anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 that's why you make them command tanks for 30 pts, however pask is an additional 50 points on top of that. so you end up paying 50 pts for a fixed warlord trait instead of a 1/3 chance of old grudges (not that the other warlord traits are very interesting too!), for a reroll on the armour penetration and a reroll to hit if you're putting him in a vanquisher (which is in my opinion the most viable command tank, due to you wanting to keep your tank out of harms way, cosidering it's a juicy target and gives up a slay the warlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 The rending seems more interesting than rerolls to hit since everyone and their dog can cast prescience now. The survivability is a valid concern, but in a group of three I'm not sure how easy it will be to take out av 13/14. I dunno, have to play test it to see how he really fits in outside of the vacuum of a simulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Is Pask's "Tank Hunter"-ability added in the calculation, or is it just Preferred Enemy and Rending? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 sure, a group of 3 increases it's survivability, but it also hinders you as it means those two other tanks (about 300 pts) will have to fire at the same target (although the "kill on sight" order lessens this to some effect, if you manage the order to come through) and be in the same area the wole time. I prefer my armour to be able to flank my opponent and attack him from multiple sides if possible, thus prefering single tanks. maybe players experiences with them will make me change my opinion though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt1893 Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 Is Pask's "Tank Hunter"-ability added in the calculation, or is it just Preferred Enemy and Rending? I no longer see any reference to Tank Hunter under Pask's abilities. Crack shot allows him to re-roll failed pens, but that's all I saw. Am I not looking in the right place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Is Pask's "Tank Hunter"-ability added in the calculation, or is it just Preferred Enemy and Rending? I no longer see any reference to Tank Hunter under Pask's abilities. Crack shot allows him to re-roll failed pens, but that's all I saw. Am I not looking in the right place? Well, that is essentially Tank Hunter. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 i think he is worth it, 29 shots with 20 of them being rending and re-rolling armour pen rolls makes for some nice anti air/infantry, armour 14 front also works very good against Helldrakes flaming from up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 The Tank Commander option is great, Pask is pricey but I think he can be worth it. The rules he has are good and as shown here he makes Punishers into what everyone thought they'd be when they were first released :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Only a 40pt upgrade, not 50. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I'm rolling with pask in a vanquisher. misses 1/9 of the time, and two chances at AP, with 15 for the average roll? and AP2? Anything that basically autopens land raiders from across the table is...Godlike!!! Did I mention that he autopens those land raiders for significantly less than the 250 points that those land raiders cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I dont think Id really take a single punisher without him... rending on 20 shots is just to good, but S5 is rough vs vehicles without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Who else is doing a Pask model for the ETL? :lol: Perhaps our next question should be which tank suits him best, relative to certain roles of course? The Rending Punisher seems only held back by the range, but the Vanquisher is almost a guarantee of some serious damage to a vehicle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0MMY Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I was thinking of running him (or at least a command tank) in an executioner - is this a bad idea...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 a tank commander is never a bad idea as it frees up a heasy support slot and can use it as your warlord. I guess the only way to find out is to try it out and see how it works for you. even though it now has "gets hot" the executioner is still a very dangerous and potent weapon, able to annihilate entire 2+ save units in a single volley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andhil Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I personally think taking Pask carries risks too. So you've got a Vanquisher who can basically autopen a Land Raider. Great. Guess what the other guy wants to take out first? Anyway, I'm probably never going to take a Vanquisher. My group seems to prefer MC's. Flying ones at that! So Punishers are where it's at! But. I think we can all agree that Tank Commanders are awesome, if only for letting us take Lemans as HQ. And Pask is a beast. That's your go to guy when you need to turn it up to eleven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'm feeling the killing power of a Leman Russ elite HQ choice, but it feels like you're potentially making it so your Warlord VP is tied to the one unit an opponent has to kill to win a game instead of being wiped off the board. It's kinda like a Guard Deathstar. Do we have any experience of the pros and cons here from our learned commanders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'm feeling the killing power of a Leman Russ elite HQ choice, but it feels like you're potentially making it so your Warlord VP is tied to the one unit an opponent has to kill to win a game instead of being wiped off the board. It's kinda like a Guard Deathstar. Do we have any experience of the pros and cons here from our learned commanders? Yes, and no. in general the leman russ command tank is always tougher that the T3 commander model. However it's harder to hide, especially if you wish to use any other variant than the vanquisher tank(which can stay in the back, hiding behind cover, sniping down juicy targets). As an armoured battalion player i prefered the armoured battalion to be the allies because this ment i could take a cheap command squad as my warlord and keep in in reserves for most of the game, denying an easy slay the warlord while my "actuall" commander in chief wrecked mayhem on the fields of battle. However this also had to do with the armoured battalion warlord traits not being that special. in the new guard dex things have changed however! not alone did the command squad that would be placed in reserves go up, but the command tank also became a lot more survivable! giving it camo netting is an auto-include, due to always having (at the very least) a 6+ cover save, and you can now take a (cheap) leman russ bodyguard tank that will soak up damage for your warlord (2 seems a bit overkil and too many eggs in 1 basket). In addition making the tank command your warlord also limits the warlord traits (which is a good thing here!) from 6 up to 3. on a 1 you will get to outflank D3 units (imo the best trait), on a 2 you get prefered enemy, and on a 3 the blobs guarding your commander won't run away from recieving shooting cassualties. I think these far outweigh the risk of making the warlord a juicy target, considering it will already be a juicy target even without being the command tank. I plan on including a command vanquisher warlord and armoured sentinel team combo in most of my lists. the armoured sentinels can either outflank when getting the right warlord trait (giving a good chance to getting linebreaker!), or help in covering the warlord due to their mass. The only downside is you will only be able to give commands up to junior officer level, but that's in my opinion a trade off worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (At work so I don't have the codex in front of me)\ To Captain Idaho's point, can you take Pask as a non-warlord? Talk about a tempting HQ for a Guard ally detachment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.