Competitive and Uncompetitive Units

[SyNidus]

So, what is everyone's pick for most competitive and uncompetitive units, and why?

Please try to keep the discussions constructive.

[Scribe]

CSM Pure

 

Jugger Lord

Black Mace Prince

Black Mace Nurgle Biker Lord

 

Plague Marines (if Troops)

Cultists

 

Heldrakes

Spawn (Nurgle)

 

Maulerfiends (if taken in multiple)

Obliterators

 

Going strictly by netlisting, thats about it.

[the jeske]

helldrake and belfegor are probably the only pure compatitive unit for chaos. The rest is taken either because there is nothing better[cultists , oblits] or because they have to be taken[sorc as ally , sorc , lord , DP as ally] or because they have to be taken because of other stuff already in the list[tyfus and zombis , spawn/bikers and lords].

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Top 3 Most Competative:

#1 MON Obliterators: they have the durability and the firepower to be a major nuisance.

#2 Heldrakes: AP3 Torrent Flamer.

#3 Typhus: makes Cultists playable while being a powerful beatstick

Top 3 Worst Units:

#3 Thousand Sons: pay out the @$$ for an invulnerable save they will never use and AP3 Bolters which are useless against half the armies in the game and the other half will find cover

#2 Warp Talons: paying terminator prices for Not-Terminators.

#1 Muitilators: what's worse than a SNP CC unit that is ludicrously expensive and sucks in melee?

[Hellios]

 

 

Top 3 Worst Units:

#3 Thousand Sons: pay out the @$$ for an invulnerable save they will never use and AP3 Bolters which are useless against half the armies in the game and the other half will find cover

 

 

If they didn't need a sorcerer they would be a little better... The sorcerer is way too expensive... Especially considering the Tzeentch psychic powers... I look at a unit of Grey Knights... Then I weep.

[Spacefrisian]

My oppinion (on there own):

 

Best:

-Helldrake

-Obliterators (Nurgle or Tzeentch)

-Cultists (Tzeentch if they need a mark)

 

Medium:

-Forgefiend

-Defiler

 

Worst:

-Maulerfiend

-Mutalators

-Hellbrutes

 

All the other stuf might work, but they need to work in pairs or trios to be functional, eg Noisemarines and Sorceror. But thats just my own oppinion.

[Zhukov]

Most competitive units:

 

-Heldrake. (Both Baleflamer and Hades version. Best flier in the game, makes Chaos a good ally and playable as primary)

-Sorcerer. (Lvl3 on Bike, preferably CS version with Balestar, with spell familiar. Reliable lvl 3 sorcerer, that's fine. )

-Cultists. (50 points for 10 scoring models is very acceptable)

 

Honorable mentions for Spawn, Daemon Prince and Predators. (Cheap, tough wounds. Flying Monstrous Creature. Efficient firepower.)

 

Worst competitive units:

-Warp Talons. (Truly bad due to only doing 1 job and not even well. Awesome models though)

-Defiler. (Truly bad due to being way too expensive for mostly 1 battlecannon on an Av12 platform.)

-Thousand Sons. (Not as bad as the 2 above, but still suffering from SaP, cost en a lvl 1 sorcerer with 1 wound and acces to crappy powers.)

 

For bonus, the most overrated units from the CSM codex:

1. Plague Marines. Many people find them amazing. They are not. They are solid, but are not taken when somebody really wants to win big.

2. Obliterators. Many people find them amazing too. See the above. Competitive though, no worries.

[incinerator950]

:(

I lost the urge to use a sarcastic comment about the topic.

[Dallas Drake]

Putting aside your army isn't cult themed (i.e. Bringers of Decay or Knights of Blood, etc.)

 

Most competitive: Lord, Sorcerer, Cultists, Bikes, Heldrakes, Oblits.

 

Least competitive: Defiler, Mutilators, Possessed (as elites), Warp Talons.

[arkagl]

Most competitive troop units including cult and supplement units in order from best to worst:

CSM

Noise Marines

Plague Marines

Chosen

Khorne Berzerkers

Possessed

Thousand Sons

[Valaskjalf]

Most Competitive Units (in no particular order) :

Heldrake

Never used it, but I suppose the consensus is that their firepower and resilience makes them a damn big threat.

 

MoN Oblits

I never leave home without them, always makes their points back for me. I've once not fielded them and they were sorely missed

 

MoN Spawn

They won't tear through MEQ or wipe the floor with whoever they get in combat with, but that's not their role. They're fast, tough as nails and cheap multi-wound tarpits. Throw them at the enemy's scariest units to protect the rest of your army. Thats how I use them and it works a charm.

 

MoN Crimson Slaughter Biker Lord with Daemonheart

T6 / 2+ 4++ with IWND - quite a step up from the Nurgle Bikers I used to run in the past. Squashed a Sanguinor in combat recently in 2 turns of combat, took a single wound and regenerated it again the following turn. Awesome.

 

Be'lakor

Most likely my next buy to team up with either MoN Biker Lord or Sorcerer. Expensive as heck but can play tricks on your opponent's most expensive and destructive toys with his access to Telepathy. One of the best ways to troll your opponent.

 

Plague Marines

Native FNP, T5 and Poisoned CC weapons make them an auto-include in many lists. 

 

Semi Competitive Units:

 

Cultists

Damn cheap scoring units, but dont expect them to do anything but sit on objectives. In order to make them fearless you need to pay Typhus-tax which is cool, but he's expsive for a non-EW character. Still, you can field tons of them for very little and in large numbers your opponent needs to invest a lot of shooting onto what is, essentially, a pointless threat.

 

Sorcerer ML3 (3 x Biomancy) / Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer ML (3 x Divination) both on Bikes

Biomancy Sorcerer hoping for Iron Arm and Endurance to make the Spawn semi-unkillable with IWND and FNP. Great Buff Character with T5
Divination Sorcerer saves us a ton of points over getting an Allied Lord of Change for Divination access. Also more resilient than an allied Tzeentch Herald.
Problem is they are still only have 2 wounds and mass fire can down them very quickly. Also only native Initiative 4, which isnt great for an relatively expensive model, unless you field them Slaanesh.

 

Noise Marines

Good source of ignore-cover midfielders, Blastmaster is an absolute win but the squad can get expensive pretty quickly. The other drawback is Salvo on the sonic blasters so their efficiency goes out of the window when they have to move or get into position. Still MSU with bolters and blastmaster in cover should be the way to go. Put a doomsiren on the Champ (if you want) and along with I5, few enemies would want to charge this unit. FNP icon is also an option, but too expensive on a small squad.

 

Worst Units (in no particular order) :

 

Possessed Marines

Even with the CS supplement making them troops theyre essentially overpriced 1W models. A roll on a random chart every turn is a hindrance instead of a boon...often whatever you roll will dictate what you need to do with them, instead of following your own tactics.

 

Warp Talons

TBH Ive used these guys to some success, MoS means they will tear through any MEQ, even Death Company. They suffer from the same issues as possessed...30+ points for 1W 3+ models is a lot when they have no grenades so very often that MoS you put on them won't mean a thing. Their stupid "Warpflame Strike" rule is also a gimmick not thought-trough by GW. To put such a rule on a unit from a codex which has NO Deepstrike Scatter mitigation is ludicrous. Also most armies won't be affected by Blind, so not sure what GW were thinking.

[Chaeron]

Am I allowed to choose 'Heldrake' for all three of my slots, as though I were picking my Fast Attack choices?

[Dam13n]

Well, ignoring special characters...

Best:

1 - Flying Daemon Prince of Tzeentch/Nurgle with Black Mace

2 - Lord of Nurgle on Bike

3 - Sorcerer (ML3) on Bike

Worst:

1 - Dark Apostle

2 - Warpsmith

3 - Marked Sorcerer

Best:

1 - 3 Terminators with Combi-weapons and Power Weapons

2 - 5 Chosen with Special Weapons

3 - Helbrute (as part of a Dataslate Formation)

Worst:

1 - Mutilators

2 - Possessed

3 - Thousand Sons

Best:

1 - Cultists (or Plague Zombies if running Typhus/Necrosius)

2 - Plague Marines

3 - Chosen (or Noise Marines if not running BL)

Worst:

1 - Thousand Sons

2 - Khorne Berserkers

3 - CSM

Best:

1 - Heldrake

2 - Nurgle Bikers

3 - Nurgle Spawn

Worst:

1 - Warp Talons

2 - Raptors

3 - Spawn without the Mark of Nurgle

Best:

1 - Obliterators of Nurgle

2 - Vindicators

3 - Maulerfiend

Worst:

1 - Defiler

2 - Forgefiend

3 - Chaos Landraider

Pretty much covers it.

[Forté]

Surely it depends on how you use units to work together? You could take the best units in the game and still lose if you can't use them with some kind of synergy.

[zyl-]

Though the internet would disagree, I think this is open to some opinion. Here's my top choices.. the "worst" are just not worth listing at this time.

 

Chaos Lord- bike, MoN, lc, pf, SoC. I never played a game where this dude didn't make his points back and then some.

MSU noise marines with blastmaster (as troops). They can be killed out with focus fire, but it takes a lot more than 125 points of firepower to get 5 wounds into cover on a MeQ barring some luck.

MoN Spawn- good for getting there.

Autocannon havocs + quad gun. I know they aren't in style anymore, but I still can't let go of their threat range.

[Scribe]

Surely it depends on how you use units to work together? You could take the best units in the game and still lose if you can't use them with some kind of synergy.

 

Not really, not when discussing them in a binary of good/bad. If a unit requires another unit to work, then the result of that synergy would need to be amazing for it to vault a middle of the pack (forget bad) unit into 'good' territory.

 

A competitive unit must be cheap, hard to remove, killy, and preferably all of the above while also filling in the 'required' slots such as an HQ (cheap Sorc), or Troops (Cultists).

 

That said, this thread looks at the book in a very limited light, and does not expand upon the wider appeal of Chaos as a whole, which for me, makes the books worth playing in the first place.

 

If I only wanted to win, I would have bought into Taudar, or more likely a Farsight list as I am a sucker for mech's.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

With thousand sons, their price would be okay if either A) The lore of Tzeentch did not exist, B) The mark of Tzeentch allowed a model to use it's invun against perils of the warp, or rerolled failed tests, or C) The mark of Tzeentch gave them an extra psychic level, (so aspiring sorecerers are lvl 2, ahriman vl5) as the lore of Tzeentch is the main problem.

The main problem with squad itself is the price, slow and purpsessless and the lack of options or gear every other power armoured unit in the book has.

[Trevak Dal]

 

Top 3 Worst Units:

#3 Thousand Sons: pay out the @$$ for an invulnerable save they will never use and AP3 Bolters which are useless against half the armies in the game and the other half will find cover

 

 

If they didn't need a sorcerer they would be a little better... The sorcerer is way too expensive... Especially considering the Tzeentch psychic powers... I look at a unit of Grey Knights... Then I weep.

 

So your move (unfortunately) is to play the Jedi Knights (On the Darkside...)

[Tenebris]

Sincerly...

 

Helldrake, Be'Lakor

 

The rest of the book is there just to support the gruesome twosome above. 

 

The laurel for the worst unit goes to the Mutilators.

 

Now on the argument of the Thousand Sons. The Tzeentch Discipline is the worst in our books, the lack of implements like grenades and some sort of special/heavy weapons is a big malus and the forced reliance on the Aspiring Sorcerer for some damage output is plain bad mechanic. Add to the mix S&P and the high cost in points and you realize that you really need a strong incentive to field the Thousand Sons even in a fluffy list of the XV legion. 

[Smurfalypse]

We could also include some stuff in here from the Crimson Slaughter Supplement as well I think.

 

A CS Nurgle Lord on Bike with the Blade.

Sorcerer with Mannon.

 

Normal CSM stuff.

Sorcerers

Drakes

 

 

Most everything else is overrated compared to other things. Oblits are not as good as Centurians but cost similar points, Lords not as good as Chapter Masters or Captains, Plague Marines are severly overrated.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Meant to mention earlier, but I'd say tri las predators are fairly good, my heavy support is usually 2 of them plus a vindicator, though I have been experimenting with obliterators, they seem very hit and miss (one game deep struck in and gunned down a vindicator and marine squad, the next gunned down by fire warriors, but that is tau so yeah).

[Brother Heinrich]

Meant to mention earlier, but I'd say tri las predators are fairly good, my heavy support is usually 2 of them plus a vindicator, though I have been experimenting with obliterators, they seem very hit and miss (one game deep struck in and gunned down a vindicator and marine squad, the next gunned down by fire warriors, but that is tau so yeah).

Deep Striking Obliterators???? Why not just blow up your own landraider if you're trying to throw away points.

[Dosjetka]

Please keep a civilised and constructive tone when answering other people's posts, even if you disagree with the way the person uses X unit(s). Thank you.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

It allowed them to unleash multie meltas turn two on a vindicators side Armour turn two, and against most non tau opponents a unit deepstriking and unleashing that amount of fire power on tank sides or on units that are protected/out of site or range of the rest of the army can be usefull, especially if it takes pressure off the rest of your force.

[SyNidus]

Nice list so far, I'm starting to see a general consensus here.

 

As for deep striking, I think most people are too worried about a little risk, it definitely pays off when it works though so I wouldn't discount that option entirely.