[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Caillum]

Fire Raptor is Heavy Support, so you can only take 1 in Decap Strike. And you can't take 4HP Flyers in a Sub-Orbital Strike Wing.

 

If you want to spam Flyers, you just need Maun as Warlord. He helps get Flyers and Pods on the table quicker.

[defl0]

Don't feel bad. I totally made the same mistake! 

 

But no. Fire Raptors have 4 HP the Sub-orbital strike has a max of 3 HPs per aircraft

[MorgothNL]

Fellow Ravens,

 

When you field Dark Furies, what would you say is the best number of them? Do you always run 10? Would you always add a Primus Medicae or are they also good without?

 

10 Dark Furies is 330pts, which is quite expensive and seems like a huge overkill in combat. 10 would increase the chance of a good number making it into combat alive, but reducing to 7 or 8, gives a smaller footprint and saves quite some points for other stuff. 

 

I don't really have the luxury points wise to add an IC to the squad, but I was wondering if anybody is of the opinion that they are worthless without one.

 

I'm working hard to get my army finished, they core models are 90% set (which can be all be changed weapon wise so I still have flexibility until I'm sure what to run). The dark furies are quite the point sink, and I would probably prefer seekers, vets or Mor Deythan over them, if they had not been so awesome and iconic. So I'm trying to get the most out of them without wasting points.

 

The list I'm running can be found: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330783-raven-guard-2500pts-decapitation-strike-hh-tournament

Any comments on that or Raven Guard tactics in general are welcome too.

Edited February 10, 2017 by MorgothNL

[MorgothNL]

Also, what do you guys use VS Spartans, Landraiders, Levies, Knights, Mechanicum etc?

As you can see from comments I made before, I'm really struggling with reliable Anti-Tank in my RG army. The grenade FAQ just makes me weep and I'm actually wondering if I'll be having any fun in an upcoming HH tournament where I want to run decapitation strike and a fluffy RG army.. expecting to see super heavies, spartans, and of course.. dread/levies in pods dropping next to my infantry that can't fight back now.

 

Don't get me wrong, I 'always' have fun even when losing. But that's with houseruling the FAQ. Just feeling hopeless and underpowered for 2 days straight, will burn me down eventually :p.

[Jarkaira]

Don't feel. There are lots of options to take vs. AV14 with flare shields. Using house rules for melta bombs and grenades is like going with autopilot.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330474-best-ways-to-deal-with-av14-by-shooting/

 

It also has plenty of options which I consider fluffy for RG too.

[MorgothNL]

Don't feel. There are lots of options to take vs. AV14 with flare shields. Using house rules for melta bombs and grenades is like going with autopilot.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330474-best-ways-to-deal-with-av14-by-shooting/

 

It also has plenty of options which I consider fluffy for RG too.

Looks like a nice overview :), thanks, I'll have a look, maybe I did miss something.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Like the fact that its only shooting weapons...

 

For Raven Guard, Grav Rapiers are the go-to unit because of infiltrate on firing lanes, Melta Levi is decent because str 9 can normal pen av 14 and comes down turn 1, Lightnings obviously.

 

For melee there's.... chainfists on terminators, chainfists on dreadnoughts, Corax....yea, lots of counter play

[MorgothNL]

Don't feel. There are lots of options to take vs. AV14 with flare shields. Using house rules for melta bombs and grenades is like going with autopilot.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330474-best-ways-to-deal-with-av14-by-shooting/

 

It also has plenty of options which I consider fluffy for RG too.

After looking at the graph, it actually confirms what I thought, it stead of making me 'feel better' .

 

The best choices seem to be: Lightning, Vindicator LD, Rapiers, Speeders (in that order).

- I don't want a lightning, cause I run those in my Emperor's children list, my fast slots are taken and it's too much of the go-to anti-tank now for everybody (and it doesn't play fun to field one IMHO. It comes in, destroys whatever it wants and then dies or is 'useless' without rockets).

- The vindicator doesn't fit in my image of RG at all (not in a decapitation strike list anyhow), and I've got a raptor (which fits better) and has taken the 1 heavy slot.

- I already have Speeders and a full squad of rapiers..  and they are not enough, they do not come close to fighting off 2 or more AV14 (that's normally at least 9HP, which just takes too long to kill since the rapiers and speeders aren't AP1 or 2). Yes the rapiers can immobilise something, but vs some vehicles that's not enough, and a super-heavy doesn't care.

 

The only strong option for RG is the lightning, and I've handicapped myself but not wanting another, but I think you can understand why I don't want to, and it shouldn't be my only option.

 

 

Like the fact that its only shooting weapons...

 

For Raven Guard, Grav Rapiers are the go-to unit because of infiltrate on firing lanes, Melta Levi is decent because str 9 can normal pen av 14 and comes down turn 1, Lightnings obviously.

 

For melee there's.... chainfists on terminators, chainfists on dreadnoughts, Corax....yea, lots of counter play

So yes, that list makes me realise that I am forced to look back at melee, because shooting is not the best option. I will not be running chainfist terminators (call me a whiner about some of these choices, but it's just not RG enough and I hope you can agree).

Levi in pod, is kind of a cliche nowadays, but it's also very cool so I would have seriously considered fielding one if I didn't already have a raptor. And the raptor brings a lot of needed firepower and anti-air, so it feel like a mandatory choice in decapitation strike unless you build your list totally different than me. 

 

That bring us to the last melee option, a normal dread in a pod. What are people's opinion on those? It's not a Levi, but with 2 gravguns, chainfist and CC it should be able to do the job right? What about the Cortus class? Using a dread in this way is kind of a suicide mission anyway, and when throwing it at a vehicle, the lower WS doens't matter, and the Rage could make a difference. In my current list I could drop one of my 2 Mor Deythan squads and put in a Cortus.

Edited February 14, 2017 by MorgothNL

[Jarkaira]

I would try a Cortus. Its just few £ well spent in anyway and at paper it seems effective as well as fun.

[WindstormSCR]

I think honestly this is one of those times when chainfist terminators are suitably fluffy and matches fairly well with the descriptions we have of deliverer terminators

[SkimaskMohawk]

Its just that they're in a pretty contested slot.

 

Mor Deythen

Rapiers

Contemptor-Mortis

Veterans

 

Plus they need a delivery system, you can't just toss them into deepstrike like NL or IF. They're good, just hard to apply in a decap strike list

[defl0]

(quote)

After looking at the graph, it actually confirms what I thought, it stead of making me 'feel better'

 

The best choices seem to be: Lightning, Vindicator LD, Rapiers, Speeders (in that order).

- I don't want a lightning, cause I run those in my Emperor's children list, my fast slots are taken and it's too much of the go-to anti-tank now for everybody (and it doesn't play fun to field one IMHO. It comes in, destroys whatever it wants and then dies or is 'useless' without rockets).

- The vindicator doesn't fit in my image of RG at all (not in a decapitation strike list anyhow), and I've got a raptor (which fits better) and has taken the 1 heavy slot.

- I already have Speeders and a full squad of rapiers.. and they are not enough, they do not come close to fighting off 2 or more AV14 (that's normally at least 9HP, which just takes too long to kill since the rapiers and speeders aren't AP1 or 2). Yes the rapiers can immobilise something, but vs some vehicles that's not enough, and a super-heavy doesn't care.

 

The only strong option for RG is the lightning, and I've handicapped myself but not wanting another, but I think you can understand why I don't want to, and it shouldn't be my only option.

 

 

Like the fact that its only shooting weapons...

 

For Raven Guard, Grav Rapiers are the go-to unit because of infiltrate on firing lanes, Melta Levi is decent because str 9 can normal pen av 14 and comes down turn 1, Lightnings obviously. (/Quote)

 

Whoa! Way off! This isn't apples to apples and misses a lot of important concepts. First off, you can get 3 grav per lightning. Second, it's power stays constan Every turn. And grav starts turn one. Lightnings are 2 at best.

 

Timing is more important than output. These charts lead to bad tactics imo

[WindstormSCR]

Its just that they're in a pretty contested slot.

 

Mor Deythen

Rapiers

Contemptor-Mortis

Veterans

 

Plus they need a delivery system, you can't just toss them into deepstrike like NL or IF. They're good, just hard to apply in a decap strike list

Terminator Praetor unlocks CS which don't contest the slot and can take a dread claw or darkwing DT for delivery (at least as far as I remember, currently AFB)

[Caillum]

Can't take either as a Dedicated Transport. Only Legion Terminators can do that. But you should have a spare Fast Attack slot!

[defl0]

When you field Dark Furies, what would you say is the best number of them? Do you always run 10? Would you always add a Primus Medicae or are they also good without?

I don't really have the luxury points wise to add an IC to the squad, but I was wondering if anybody is of the opinion that they are worthless without one.

 

 

1. 3 Dark Fury will pretty much gut gut most units... but you have to get there. So I usually take 10 just to suck up the casualties. That said, it depends on the timing of your list. If you are turn one dropping in a bunch of HTH threats (contemptors, levies, or moving up with a big jump assault squad), you can deepstrike in a 5 man dark fury squad turn 2 or 3. By the time they come in, the shooting threats are probably tied up or destroyed. The trick to small units is threat saturation. 

2. The Medicae is really only good in expensive termi squads or with a jump pack in armies with lots of jumper units. Even then you will be making hard choices between him and other HQ options. That said, apothecaries are great in jump units and Dark Fury squads are now exception. 

3. I never run HQs with my dark fury squads. They don't need the help. They hit like a nuclear bomb. The only time I would consider it would be if you are playing iwt relics. Then I would consider a void shield generator

Edited February 15, 2017 by defl0

[Anarnii]

Has anyone weighed up the pro vs cons of mor deythan v seekers v vets v plasma support squad as a source of anti infantry?

In my context they will either be infiltrating or via pod, so no rhino for the MD.

 

---------------------------------

 

Ran some numbers, if a combi weapon only fires once in game and other units i've calculated at 3 turns of shooting:

 

Seekers do the most damage per 100pts vs 2+ armour saves.

 

If comparing a single turn of shooting:

 

Mor Deythan with combi plasma at rapid fire range do the most damage per 100pts

 

Veterans with combi plasma in at rapid fire range comes second, seekers third  which coming above plasma support with and without Bs5 boosting.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Anarnii

[WindstormSCR]

Has anyone weighed up the pro vs cons of mor deythan v seekers v vets v plasma support squad as a source of anti infantry?

 

In my context they will either be infiltrating or via pod, so no rhino for the MD.

 

---------------------------------

 

Ran some numbers, if a combi weapon only fires once in game and other units i've calculated at 3 turns of shooting:

 

Seekers do the most damage per 100pts vs 2+ armour saves.

 

If comparing a single turn of shooting:

 

Mor Deythan with combi plasma at rapid fire range do the most damage per 100pts

 

Veterans with combi plasma in at rapid fire range comes second, seekers third  which coming above plasma support with and without Bs5 boosting.

 

Try re-running the numbers with LVTs running combi-flamers/marksmen. average is 4 hits per template (over several games, usually 3 minimum)

 

For myself I always run at least one combi-flamer vet squad and 1 squad of seekers, combi-vets usually a ten man in a pod/dreadclaw for point and remove ability.

[pompeyladbfp]

i played a game the other week and ran a bare bones seeker unit (sgt had AA,PF but they never got charge) infiltrated on the flank and poured str5 ap2 shots with shred into his Space wolves all game including chipping rounds of Russ at one point. I loved them, just so realible especially if you mark of death a big unit your going to target all game anyway.

 

ive started using my MD squads smaller and in rhinos taht scout, move up. hopefully survive then suicide assault the hardest hitting enemy unit possible.

 

my vets are now used as all rounders but with a good mix of antitank melta combis as its the thing my force lacks, ap2 is in abundance from plasmas/dark furies rending/MD rends etc

[Anarnii]

i played a game the other week and ran a bare bones seeker unit (sgt had AA,PF but they never got charge) infiltrated on the flank and poured str5 ap2 shots with shred into his Space wolves all game including chipping rounds of Russ at one point. I loved them, just so realible especially if you mark of death a big unit your going to target all game anyway.

 

ive started using my MD squads smaller and in rhinos taht scout, move up. hopefully survive then suicide assault the hardest hitting enemy unit possible.

 

my vets are now used as all rounders but with a good mix of antitank melta combis as its the thing my force lacks, ap2 is in abundance from plasmas/dark furies rending/MD rends etc

[Anarnii]

How many points was this?

 

At 3000 im looking at melta vets, melta terminators, plasma mor deythan and seekers.

 

Plus 2 tactical units, bikes, grav cortus, deredo, knight Palladian, master of signal, maun

 

I'm really struggling with elite slots so I'm thinking another unit of seekers instead of plasma deythan so I can squeeze rapiers in

Edited March 7, 2017 by Anarnii

[defl0]

"Has anyone weighed up the pro vs cons of mor deythan v seekers v vets v plasma support squad as a source of anti infantry?

 

In my context they will either be infiltrating or via pod, so no rhino for the MD."

 

Mor Deythan - Best for first turn, anti infantry alpha strike. Scout and a rhino is very reliable.

 

Seekers - cheapest plasma esque squad if you infiltrate and use Scorpius bolts. They are also the best alpha strike plasma unit, ie most damage in a single turn.

 

Vets - Best tank hunters. Best beta strike anti infantry. Best objective holders.

 

It's not worth comparing them on damage output. The slight differences on when they can use the weapons best and how they get into position is more important.

[Nusquam]

Anyone done a Victory is Vengeance campaign yet? My group is gearing up for it. We just did a test game and I have a few takeaways as RG.

• Infiltrate, and by extension outflank, is very potent.
• I found a use for my volkite calivers. I imagine Culverins would be amazing too. My Opponents HBs were pretty decent.
• Paragon is utterly broken for a role, needs immediate nerfing.

I just built a new hero to lead my force; A Standard Bearer in Cataphractii with a PF and RAC. He won't be able to infiltrate but will be great bait.

[Biscuittzz]

When running a Praetor how do people go about loadouts? Are two combat weapons legal? I'm thinking of making one rolling with a paragon blade, power fist, jump pack, digi lasers and iron halo. Will probably use a Raven Talons as the PF as I think it looks badass.

 

Was thinking of making a command squad to go with him from a fluff/modelling point of view. Or is popping him into a unit of Dark Furies just as good?

 

Finally, what do people use as their paragon blade? I'm stuck between a sword and a glaive, always liked the look of a glaive for some reason.

[Purge the Daemon]

When running a Praetor how do people go about loadouts? Are two combat weapons legal? I'm thinking of making one rolling with a paragon blade, power fist, jump pack, digi lasers and iron halo. Will probably use a Raven Talons as the PF as I think it looks badass.

 

Was thinking of making a command squad to go with him from a fluff/modelling point of view. Or is popping him into a unit of Dark Furies just as good?

 

Finally, what do people use as their paragon blade? I'm stuck between a sword and a glaive, always liked the look of a glaive for some reason.

Double melee works provided no terminator armour. Fist and paragon is the best combo but does get pricey.

 

Dark furies probably hit harder than a command squad but have no ++ not that a 6++ is very good either.

 

Paragon blade description states it can literally be anything from dueling rapiers to mysterious alien scythes. Most people do use swords though or at least hand held blades as it's less confusing.

[defl0]

The Panoply of the Raven Lord. Type: Melee, Shreed, Blind, Fighting Style, Two-handed.

 

Blind rule in short: If hited = INIATIVE test = if failed = WS + BS reduced to 1. 

 

Thet's why he is WS 7 only. It's like lesser version of invisibility ...

 

 

Also remember that the blind rule changed. You used to take a check with EVERY hit... Now it's just once. 

 

The piece that boogles my mind is that Corax doesn't have infiltrate... golly gee?