Wondering about HQs in 7th

[Kilofix]

Its been asked before but just curious if anything's changed.

 

 

1. What are you guys equipping your non-unique HQs with these days? E.g. Captains, Chaos Lords, etc.

 

If not using the default Bolt Pistol & PW, and if not using Relics / Artifacts; I've been equipping mine with Lightning Claw / Power Fist to capitalize on their usually higher Assault effectiveness.

 

 

2. With no restrictions on number of Detachments in 7th, has anyone tried running a list with a large number of HQs and cheap Troops?

 

Like 6 HQs and 6 Scouts or Cultists, etc.?

(But ignoring any 'Daemon Factory' type of setups for the purposes of this thread).

 

 

Thanks for the opinions.

[minigun762]

I'm still a fan of the budget HQ units like Captains with dual claws or a Chaos Sorcerer. Enough to be useful without having to build an army around them.

[Azash]

Nothings changed for my captain/cm on a bike w/ burning blade and grav pistol.

 

The really big change is the access to divination for John Q Librarian. Now an epistolary in TA with a SS can prescience (or at least attempt to) your sternguard or any other tactics and abilities. A cheap backfield fire support Libby to give your cents a 4++ save, etc.

 

I expect for non UM CT armies this is especially huge.

[MagicMan]

The really big change is the access to divination for John Q Librarian. Now an epistolary in TA with a SS can prescience (or at least attempt to) your sternguard or any other tactics and abilities. A cheap backfield fire support Libby to give your cents a 4++ save, etc.

 

 

 

Pretty sure Diviniation only got a tick because Tiggy has it. The rules say you can take what your unit entry has listed, plus Daemonology. You can't take Divination on an ordinary Librarian.

 

 

 

 

 

For me, i like to take Arty Armour and a Thunder Hammer on a jump pack captain. His Iron Halo makes him resilient enough, and the TH means he can smash just about anything...

[Stickeh]

Nothings changed for my captain/cm on a bike w/ burning blade and grav pistol.

 

The really big change is the access to divination for John Q Librarian. Now an epistolary in TA with a SS can prescience (or at least attempt to) your sternguard or any other tactics and abilities. A cheap backfield fire support Libby to give your cents a 4++ save, etc.

 

I expect for non UM CT armies this is especially huge.

As said above it's still Tiggy only I'm afraid, which sucks. On the subject of Tiggy I'm still waiting for an FAQ as to how his abilities interact with 7th, rerolling failed tests being the big one. I've gone large on troops with 3 tactical squads and 2 chimvet squads at 2k, all with dedicated transports. Tiggy doesn't really have anyone to ride with, so I've been taking a TDA captain and a unit of termies as a replacement for him and grav cents, I'll let you know how it works out.

[malorn24]

My CM is still AA/SE/TH basically Lysander with OB and can perform sweeping advance.

[minigun762]

My CM is still AA/SE/TH basically Lysander with OB and can perform sweeping advance.

With the change to Smash, the relic shield is less required I think, especially if you're on a bike or get T5 some other way.

[Disruptor_fe404]

If I read it correctly, the Blind rule now forces the test at the end of a phase, which is a slight nerf to the Burning Blade.

 

This doesn't change how I'm using my bike Master though.

[Captain Idaho]

My Chapter Master has a Relic blade and Storm Shield and wears Artificer armour. Only targets he can't dominate are Terminators, Mega Armour Nobz, Broadsides and some MCs and Independent Characters.

 

All units I don't want to fight (or in the case of Broadsides, rarely get a chance to) in assault anyway.

 

My secondary is now a Librarian with Terminator armour and a Storm Shield, sporting a force axe. Able to trade blows with many opponents and is s danger even to the likes of MCs, he becomes a nice boost to even a mundane Tactical squad. With biomancy and in a Drop Pod, he can either support AP2 shooting nicely, lower the toughness of the target, increase the longevity of his attendant squad of just give himself a stat boost right on the opponent's doorstep.

 

His wargear makes gives him all the tools for the job.

[minigun762]

My Chapter Master has a Relic blade and Storm Shield and wears Artificer armour. Only targets he can't dominate are Terminators, Mega Armour Nobz, Broadsides and some MCs and Independent Characters.

 

All units I don't want to fight (or in the case of Broadsides, rarely get a chance to) in assault anyway.

 

I'm curious how often that storm shield has been helpful compared to running just the iron halo. I hear such mixed feedback.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

My CM is still AA/SE/TH basically Lysander with OB and can perform sweeping advance.

With the change to Smash, the relic shield is less required I think, especially if you're on a bike or get T5 some other way.

 

 

I care to differ.  The Shield Eternal is still an excellent piece of equipment that I would never leave home without.  Granted, I don't run my Master on a bike, so the ability to shrug off lascannons and krak missiles is still important.

[malorn24]

 

 

My CM is still AA/SE/TH basically Lysander with OB and can perform sweeping advance.

With the change to Smash, the relic shield is less required I think, especially if you're on a bike or get T5 some other way.

 

 

I care to differ.  The Shield Eternal is still an excellent piece of equipment that I would never leave home without.  Granted, I don't run my Master on a bike, so the ability to shrug off lascannons and krak missiles is still important.

 

 

 

This.

 

I don't run bikes so I have to keep him alive for the above said reasons. I am curious as to how you mitigate the high str weapon attacks that could one shot your CM?

[Captain Idaho]

 

My Chapter Master has a Relic blade and Storm Shield and wears Artificer armour. Only targets he can't dominate are Terminators, Mega Armour Nobz, Broadsides and some MCs and Independent Characters.

All units I don't want to fight (or in the case of Broadsides, rarely get a chance to) in assault anyway.

 

I'm curious how often that storm shield has been helpful compared to running just the iron halo. I hear such mixed feedback.

Glad you asked!

 

I often used the Chapter Master to lead from the front and soak the wounds for the squad. Plasma is an issue here and I think he would be dead a lot more often without it. Same goes for assaults too, as losing a model to a jammy overwatch is horrible when you're in Artificer armour.

 

One close game I was I was assaulting a unit of 3 lascannon heavy weapon teams and the blighter rolled 2 hits for overwatch! My save was a pair of 3s. I won by about 2 points but would have lost by 1 if I failed those saves.

[minigun762]

 

 

 

My CM is still AA/SE/TH basically Lysander with OB and can perform sweeping advance.

With the change to Smash, the relic shield is less required I think, especially if you're on a bike or get T5 some other way.

I care to differ. The Shield Eternal is still an excellent piece of equipment that I would never leave home without. Granted, I don't run my Master on a bike, so the ability to shrug off lascannons and krak missiles is still important.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I'm not arguing that its not still viable, just that there is now more room for builds that don't use it if your concern was smashing MCs.

[GreyCrow]

Well, I used to run pretty beasty HQs, and I'm now trying more simple ones. Namely a ML2 Librarian with Grav Pistol. The reason is that he is cheap, comes with a free AP3 Sword that can cause Instant Death with Force. The Grav Pistol is there to reduce more beasty CC units to Initiative 1, so I can get to strike first.

 

I ran him only once and he was the last model to get killed, by St Celestine, hence the idea to use the Grav Pistol ! :p

 

____

 

Regarding HQs, Minigun made a point that blew my mind a few weeks back in a thread about the loadouts of Tactical Sergeants. He said that any upgrade taken on a Sergeant should be viewed as a squad upgrade rather than a character upgrade, and this is probably the single most sensible thing I've heard on these boards so far. (I'm not hitting on you Minigun, but thanks for that tip man, you rock !).

 

I think Space Marine HQs should be approached as part of a unit rather than what they alone can do. After all, regardless of its size, the unit is the lowest tactical currency in Warhammer 40.000. HQs could be thought of as being (expensive) unit upgrades. Or units in which HQs are can be thought of as HQ upgrades.

 

In that way, I'd think of what I'd want the unit with the HQ to do in the game, then specialize my HQ to either boost what the unit does, or specialize the unit to make sure the HQ does its job. Spending 250 points on one beasty Chapter Master is easy and cool, but for the same price, you could have had 6 Terminators (with 14 extra Power Fist attacks !).

E.g. : I want my Librarian to support my force with his Psychic Powers, and I run him in a Command Squad with a loadout that makes them able to provide supporting fire to the rest of my units, as well as a few Storm Shields to keep the Librarian safer over the course of the game.

[Excubitor]

Haven't played a game in 7th yet, but I plan on still using my Mir'san counts-as as my go-to HQ - after all, my second company captain's fluff fits his rules perfectly, as a fluff player I couldn't ask for anything more!

 

My Master of the Forge and Librarian will also be getting used to support him at different times. Stock librarian with power sword is a cheap and effective HQ that never really lets me down. My Master of the Forge uses a Lightning Claw and the Primarch's Wrath and is more of a backfield support HQ, but can put a surprising amount of hurt into combat with his two servo-arms and lightning claw. Primarch's Wrath, MC-Plasma Pistol, and flamer gives him plenty of options too.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

The mighty lord Greathorn the indifferent rolls with his mark of Slaanesh, 4++, lightning claw, burning brand (cleverely disguised as a very noisy backpack) and a melta bomb, mounted upon a bike. Always has, always will.

[Sheesh Mode]

I run a black legion army led by Khârn with 4 troop choices (2 cult squads and 2 chosen) they have worked well for me in my games against guard.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I've always liked running chaos lords with deamon weapons and I don't think that will change with 7th. Sure it's a hefty investment once you buy some protective gear as well and you run the risk of wounding yourself with daemon weapons, but that's something I expect to see with chaos gear plus there's so much satisfaction in seeing my lord get 9 or so attacks and smashing faces.

 

With the addition of the pyshic phase though I will try out a sorcerer with the black mace and biomancy. May not be the best option but it week be fun to try.

[minigun762]

There was a good discussion awhile back about budget HQs and a key point that was made was having a durable enough HQ to deny an easy kill point.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree, a very good point to discuss.

 

I find budget HQs and VP denying HQs are separate things for Space Marines. To get the most out of the HQ you want to use it or you're wasting points. By using him in an army that generally means getting down with the boys at the front, thus the budget choice becomes easier to kill.

 

Not set in stone of course but it's often the case.

[minigun762]

I think you can run budget HQs that are still effective for the points.

 

Good example is a Captain on a bike with art armor. Have him escort a biker squad. Give him something like a combi grav and claw.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah yes. I was thinking of cheapo Librarians and Chaplains.

 

My bad.

[minigun762]

Ah yes. I was thinking of cheapo Librarians and Chaplains.

 

My bad.

Two wound HQs make great secondary HQs but poor Warlords. I'd fully agree with that. Sad because the new Chaplain looks amazing.

[GreyCrow]

 

Ah yes. I was thinking of cheapo Librarians and Chaplains.

 

My bad.

Two wound HQs make great secondary HQs but poor Warlords. I'd fully agree with that. Sad because the new Chaplain looks amazing.

 

 

I agree with that to an extent of the point size. I've played a few games at 1250 points, and 2W HQs are decent enough for this point size and don't give the VP too easily. In addition, they often provide force multiplying effects that Captains/Chapter Masters don't have, and are great to buff up the low points Space Marines armies that will likely lack bodies or special rules at that point level.

 

For larger points game however, like 1500 or 1750pts+, 3W HQs are a better choice for warlord simply because there will be so much enemy density that there is no way that you will manage to protect your HQ for long and contribute with his escort unit.

 

At larger points games, I'm really tempted to use 1 cheap HQ (Libby most likely) and 1 main HQ (combat captain) to buff up my force, but these two models cost 250points total and I'm wondering if it's a good idea :p