Jolemai Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined. This is where the ambiguity lies. This quote that Morticon copied from the rulebook earlier tells us that to be part of a unit at the start of the game, the IC must be within 2" of said unit. However, people read that quote as how Morollan has mentioned and thus, interpret things differently. In my opinion, there is no order of operations when it comes to deployment. All the 7th edition tells us is that during standard deployment you deploy your models, then your opponent deploys theirs [basic rule]. Infiltrate [advanced rule] tells us that one model in a unit needs Infiltrate to give it to a squad and that those with this rule deploy after your opponent. ICs [advanced rule] have two choices. They either deploy during standard deployment (i.e normal or infiltrate), or they go into reserve. In both cases, you inform your opponent what he's doing. To be honest, this isn't going to get solved any time soon so talk to your gaming group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Anyway, I've updated the original post following all the excellent discussion so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 IC's can join a unit before you put them on the table. Incorrect. An IC joins a unit by: 1) Being deployed within 2" of them during the deployment phase 2) By being kept in reserve, then declared to be joining another unit that is also in reserve. If Cypher is infiltrating, any unit he could join will already have been deployed, as per the deployment rules, apart from another infiltrating unit, which deploys at the same stage as Cypher. In my opinion, there is no order of operations when it comes to deployment. One last flog of the horse: Yes, there is. 1: Declare what is being kept in reserve 2: Deploy units that do not have, or have, but choose not to use the infiltrate rule 3: Deploy models that are using the infiltrate rule 4: Oddball stuff with special rules not covered by the above. 5: 'Scout' redeployment moves. These of course are alternating with the opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Original post updated to reflect the changes with the seventh edition. Please note that most of the discussion above focused on the use of Infiltrate and as this has now been resolved, it is best to skim over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 7, 2015 Author Share Posted June 7, 2015 OP updated with Faction information regarding Cypher (info: here). The tl;dr is that he is either Faction: Dark Angels or Faction: Chaos when being used on his own. This means we are not permitted to take him in a BSF or FTSF detachment :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 When was that stated? That sucks :( Edit: saw the link. Damn. That said he could work well as the leader of an allied CAD for some Obj Sec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Mephy, cypher, priest on bike solves the T problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CypherTheFallen Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 So, I know this is a somewhat old post, but I was hoping someone might be able to clarify this: And the unit will be hard as rocks too, as you would use Meph's toughness to determine what is needed to wound the cypher/meph unit (either 6 or 9 depending Iron Arm). It's a unit that's in their face and MUST BE DEALT WITH, but it's so hard to deal with as they have shrouded to give better saves *evil laugh*. And also because Cypher is EW, you can actually have him take a wound that would somehow be considered Instant Death to Mephiston (force weapons come to mind). I mean, if I am wrong somewhere please correct me, but seems like a pretty OP unit.... I'm pretty new to 40k so I apologize if this is something simple, and this may just be due to a change from previous editions to 7th edition, but my understanding is that when it comes to determining wounds you use the majority toughness of the unit. So, in a unit consisting of Cypher, Mephy, and X amount of DC, you would use the toughness of the DC guys as they are the majority of the unit. This however is saying that you would use Mephy's toughness to determine what is needed to wound the unit as a whole... Is this correct? And if this is correct, why is that? Does Cypher or Mephy have a special rule that allows wounds to be determined this way? Or is/was this just a general thing for units with Independent Characters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderer Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I'm pretty new to 40k so I apologize if this is something simple, and this may just be due to a change from previous editions to 7th edition, but my understanding is that when it comes to determining wounds you use the majority toughness of the unit. So, in a unit consisting of Cypher, Mephy, and X amount of DC, you would use the toughness of the DC guys as they are the majority of the unit. This however is saying that you would use Mephy's toughness to determine what is needed to wound the unit as a whole... Is this correct? And if this is correct, why is that? Does Cypher or Mephy have a special rule that allows wounds to be determined this way? Or is/was this just a general thing for units with Independent Characters? That post is about our previous codex where Mephiston didn't have independant character rule and couldn't join any units but had some very high stats (toughness 6, for example). But a loophole in basic 7th edition rules allowed other independant characters to join him. So when Cypher joins Meph there is only 2 models in a unit and the majority toughness is therefore 6 (you take the highest value). So any attacks against this unit have to be resolved against T6 but when it comes to allocating wound each model uses it's own toughness value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Thread updated. Also, I was sent this a while back (thanks LutherMax!) but only just got around to adding it... Sorry! Basically, Cypher is fair game in either a BSF, CAD or FTSF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Seems pretty clearly defined. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Excellent news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Very nice. Stick him with a unit of scouts with cloaks until you can pod in your support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Very nice. Stick him with a unit of scouts with cloaks until you can pod in your support? That's my plan, but use recon style Marines instead of scouts. Think BA blood claws in lighter armour :P Basically scout models suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Very nice. Stick him with a unit of scouts with cloaks until you can pod in your support? That's my plan, but use recon style Marines instead of scouts. Think BA blood claws in lighter armour Basically scout models suck. Haha, yes, the old box heads. Just remember that Cypher (or any IC) does not pass infiltrate on to a unit, so 'recon marines' using scout rules is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Very nice. Stick him with a unit of scouts with cloaks until you can pod in your support? That's my plan, but use recon style Marines instead of scouts. Think BA blood claws in lighter armour Basically scout models suck. Haha, yes, the old box heads. Just remember that Cypher (or any IC) does not pass infiltrate on to a unit, so 'recon marines' using scout rules is fine. Why do you think I'm using them :P One idea is Wolf Scouts. Then you get special weapons/ combat weapons etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'll be making a Cypher model soon(ish) based on the DV Libby. I've got some Recon marines too but they're gonna be my Sternguard :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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