Razorbacks in 7th edition ?

[GreyCrow]

Did 7th edition and the changes to vehicles, both for survivability and firepower, affect the Razorbacks that much ?

 

The Razorbacks are mostly a fire support vehicle that works best along units that can't be taken in more than 5 persons. I have played them with 5-6 men Tactical squads, but they are only effective in large numbers and if you keep the squad inside very cheap.

 

As a fire support platform, I'm going to play one with a Command squad. The Razorback will be there more to provide both protection and some firesupport.

 

I can't get my head around which turret to go for, though... The Command squad is geared out to take out whatever comes its way (infantry and tanks), and I'd like the Razorback to be able to provide decent firesupport against all targets available.

 

The Las/Plas turret is interesting on paper but practically, it doesn't work well with a moving transport. You basically have to choose which weapon to use for each turn because the other will be spent snap firing. Its targets seem to be primarily tanks, especially lighter ones.

 

The AssCan turret seems like a good bargain, geared mainly towards infantry with a side order of anti-tank due to strength 6 and rending. Its good point is that it can move and fire at full efficiency compared to the LasPlas.

 

The TL LC is too expensive I find, twin linking a single shot isn't that interesting unless you play long range Razorback spam.

 

The 2 base turrets are good (although the heavy flamer doesn't seem too practical), but they are definitely anti-infantry only.

 

Between the Las/Plas and the AssCan turrets, which ones do you like the most ?

[incinerator950]

I wish Chaos had them with all the MSU cult squads.

[knife&fork]

They work ok, but glances still kill them just as quickly.

 

Unless your list is built to be extremely aggressive I wouldn't recommend razors for objective capping. They are very easy to take out and then you're stuck without transport. 

If you still want to run them I say either one works fine, depends on what you have in your list besides the razor. 

 

For myself when I take them I go as cheap as possible (I quite like the heavy flamer version but only because mines are fast). I don't count on the weapon to do much, tank shocks are a more useful tool for pushing things off objectives. 

[GreyCrow]

Interesting point Knife ! Indeed, the Heavy Flamer in a Blood Angels army sounds fantastic ;)

 

I've given more thoughts about the LasPlas turret. After simulating a few dice rolls for it and the AssCan turret, I think I found an interesting use of the LasPlas turret.

Rather than taking it for its destructive power, we can pick it for its extra help in providing the right fire support for the right situation. Instead of having 2 weapons you choose from, I think there are actually 3 weapons :

1) Lascannon

2) Twin Linked Plasmagun

3) Lascannon and Twin Linked Plasmagun

 

Each has their own use and I think we should view that turret as a swiss knife for fire support against medium targets both if you are aggressive or defensive. By medium I include vehicles up to AV12 (included) like Rhinos, bikes, Terminators, MCs, multi-wounds T4 and even MEQ. It's a pain to dedicate a TriLas Predator to take down a 35 points Rhino, for example, while you would like to be aiming it at more dangerous targets !

In addition, you have 3 scenarios in which that turret works, one for each weapon listed above :

1) When you are more than 12" away from a medium target and you need to take off a wound a MC or remove a hull point from a vehicle. Against AV12, the Lascannon still is more interesting than the PG even below 12".

2) When you are within 12" of your target, the plasma becomes more interesting against non-vehicles and is a better choice against vehicles up to AV11 included.

3) When you are playing defensive, keeping stationnary in your backfield and letting the enemy come to you : from 24-48" you get the Lascannon, from 12-24" you get a shot with each and within 12" you get both weapons.

 

Am I completely off or on to something ? Basically, you don't pay premium points for firepower, but for flexibility and the right tool at the right moment. The Assault Cannon is interesting, but you lose the ability of range and against vehicles it can work wonders or fail terribly, with an average of 1HP removed against AV11 on most die rolls.

[Imren]

THe whole point of a razorback is to move around the battlefield to transport your your troops. Not to sit in the backfield and shooting. So the shrot range of the ass cannon is not really a disadvange on a troop carrier. I have ass cannons (magnetised, so I can run them as rhinos too) on my razorbacks, not only useful against infrantry, but also it can glance and perhaps pen other light troop carriers. Although I dont run them very often, they tend to be a easy first blood for the opponent and then your troops inside are stranded footslogging around.

 

The most effient way of running a command squad in my opinion is to put have a squad with all equippend with plasma guns, and an apothecary and a termie libby with storm shield, drop pod them near the opponents gun line and wreak havoc, make sure you dismebark with the libby up front and have him soak up the incoming ragefire. This way of running command squads is soo efficient, especially against tau or IG gunlines. I suggest you magnetise the plasma guns so you can swap for meltas too

[GreyCrow]

THe whole point of a razorback is to move around the battlefield to transport your your troops. Not to sit in the backfield and shooting. So the shrot range of the ass cannon is not really a disadvange on a troop carrier. I have ass cannons (magnetised, so I can run them as rhinos too) on my razorbacks, not only useful against infrantry, but also it can glance and perhaps pen other light troop carriers. Although I dont run them very often, they tend to be a easy first blood for the opponent and then your troops inside are stranded footslogging around.

The most effient way of running a command squad in my opinion is to put have a squad with all equippend with plasma guns, and an apothecary and a termie libby with storm shield, drop pod them near the opponents gun line and wreak havoc, make sure you dismebark with the libby up front and have him soak up the incoming ragefire. This way of running command squads is soo efficient, especially against tau or IG gunlines. I suggest you magnetise the plasma guns so you can swap for meltas too

Hehe, in some cases it's better to sit back though, against very close range oriented armies like orks and sisters of battle But I see what you mean ! What I wanted to say in my previous post was you get to choose what weapon to shoot rather than having a set choice

Also, the Razorback compared to the Rhino is not meant for frontline duty, unless you bring a ton of them. They're very squishy and are expensive to lose. For frontline troops I use Rhinos and that work well enough ! Razorbacks are longer range, so you want to keep them where the enemy can less shoot them down ;)

Interesting command squad combo and to be honest, I was thinking about running one like that myself ! I'm running a Command squad with 3 melta + stormbolter veterans and 2 stormshield + stormbolter + melta bombs veterans. It's proven effective so far, although they're in a support role rather than in a pointman role I run them as an escort to a ML2 Libby as well, though with no Terminator armour (because he's in the Razorback and I play Raven Guard, so I can scout up if needed ).

[knife&fork]

Don't sternguard and LotD do a much better job in that role? As for command squad you can run double special weapons. Worth considering if you want the flexibility, melta+flamer on every model can be neat.

 

With scout you can outflank, so some chapter tactics and warlord traits can make razorbacks work better.

I think that expecting the razor to fill a fire support role is a bit misguided. It's a lot of points for relatively few shots. But if you want a (non podding) transport for a small squad you might as well go with the razor. 

 

The TLAC will have potentially better damage output (can be handy against fliers in a pinch and when you are stunned/shaken), the TLPG-LC will yield more consistent results while having a shot at killing non open topped AV in one blow. 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, so you do play Raven guard. That makes razorbacks a lot more viable! Tank shocks from reserves can be super handy and range is less of an issue.

[Emperors Immortals]

I've given up on RazorBacks. There too fragile, too expensive and need to be taken.en mass.

 

I've put my points into more AV and troops. It's working better.

 

If, however, I HAD to, I'd take MSU 4-5 AssBacks and stick together.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The trick to Razorbacks isn't taking them en masse.  It's taking higher-priority targets for the enemy.  I have been fielding an LRR, a Vindicator, an Ironclad, a Rhino, a Hunter, and two Razorbacks as my armor contingent in 6th and 7th and while those three AV11 vehicles do usually die during games, they usually survive until about Turn Four.  That's the point of armor saturation and presenting the enemy with multiple AV13/14 vehicles; your more resilient vehicles can soak up the high-power shots, extending the life expectancy of your light armor.

[minigun762]

The best thing I've thought of is the TLLC variant with a simple 5 man flamer squad. There is no real synergy in the combination but I see the value in keeping the Razorback in the backfield providing fire until the last few turns where I can rush forward and clear an objective with the flamer. 

[GreyCrow]

I think that expecting the razor to fill a fire support role is a bit misguided. It's a lot of points for relatively few shots. But if you want a (non podding) transport for a small squad you might as well go with the razor. 

 

Oops, bad wording on my part ! I was thinking about supporting fire rather than fire support, hehe :p

 

As in I can penetrate a vehicle up to AV12 and cause debuffs pretty reliably with the LC as well as pop 2 infantry models pretty reliably with the TLPG. Because that's just 1HP/vehicle less to worry about or that many infantry model less to worry about. That kind of support role :p

[Ming]

I like the Forgeworld las-plas turret kit for Razorbacks that just came out! Got to order some!

[minigun762]

Is there any redeeming value to the stock Razorback?

When you figure that a Rhino can take dual Storm Bolters for 15 points less, I'm not convinced the heavy bolter is really worth it.

 

The kicker is that a dual heavy bolter speeder is only five points more expensive

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Heavy bolters in general aren't worth their weight. They're one of those weapons whose stats haven't kept up with the game as it evolves. Ideally, they need to be Salvo 3/5 to be worth anything these days. As it is, they're really only useful en masse where their rate of fire can bne exploited.

[minigun762]

Heavy bolters in general aren't worth their weight. They're one of those weapons whose stats haven't kept up with the game as it evolves. Ideally, they need to be Salvo 3/5 to be worth anything these days. As it is, they're really only useful en masse where their rate of fire can bne exploited.

 

Salvo 3/5 would be a nice change, I'd be very happy with that I think. 

The other option is to reduce the cost of it, probably matching it to the flamer instead of the meltagun (for Tactical Squads). Not a big difference but it might be something. 

For the Razorback, knocking off 10 points would make it perfectly fair I think. 

[tdemayo]

 

Heavy bolters in general aren't worth their weight. They're one of those weapons whose stats haven't kept up with the game as it evolves. Ideally, they need to be Salvo 3/5 to be worth anything these days. As it is, they're really only useful en masse where their rate of fire can bne exploited.

 

Salvo 3/5 would be a nice change, I'd be very happy with that I think. 

The other option is to reduce the cost of it, probably matching it to the flamer instead of the meltagun (for Tactical Squads). Not a big difference but it might be something. 

For the Razorback, knocking off 10 points would make it perfectly fair I think. 

 

I agree with your thoughts on the heavy bolter. I'd like to see machinegun-equivalent weapons have a rate of fire of around six or ten.

[Ishagu]

I love Razors.

Just deploy them in a list with scarier units and don't rush them up the field ahead of your Landraider...

[Ming]

We did a bunch of experiments and the TLAssC Razorback was far superior against infantry targets than the las-plas variant, including vs terminator equivalents. The rending aspect in the prior addition was pretty good to get AP2.

[Excubitor]

With the increase in price from last codex, unfortunately I don't run razorbacks unless I want to get the upgraded weapon. Rhinos with 2 storm bolters and 2 people firing from the hatch is otherwise a much better option for points. Last codex I think the Heavy bolter was priced about right. I think HB razors for 45 points (as you gain the heavy weapon but lose the larger transport size) and 20 points to upgrade to a heavier weapon would be better than the current pricing - just too much for the basic HB variant.

 

Beyond pricing I actually really like them, one of my favourite mech lists from last edition is a pair of Land Raiders, an auto-las Predator with Chronus and several rhino/razor squads led by Tarnus Vale from FW badab books. A similar set-up would work with the Iron Hands CT as well.

[Brother_Marius]

I'm thinking about running dual Razorbacks in my Imperial Fists army, at the moment there won't be very much other armor, just an Ironclad Dreadnought and a Stormtalon. Maybe a single Land Speeder. My heavy weapons will come mostly from devastators of course to maximize my chapter tactics. I'm wondering how to equip my dual razorbacks, i guess it just comes down to whatever the rest of my army brings. 

 

I think that in the end it doesnt really matter that much what weapons the Razorbacks have specifically, it just has to balance out with the rest of your force. If I put lascannons in my devastator squad I might want Heavy Bolters on my Razorbacks, Stormtalon and Tactical Squads. And vice versa. It's just too bad that the Razorback box comes with only 1 turret with 2 out of 4 options, and you can't even really switch between those 2 unless you're into magnatising (which im not really). Guess I'll have to order some turrets from Forgeworld.

[Imren]

assault cannon is the most versatile, effective against infantry and low armour vehicles. I got my turrets from:

 

http://store.forgeplanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_69_81&product_id=52

 

look even better than the GW assault cannon

[Ishagu]

I think the Las Plas is the superior variant.

 

Can still engage at long range, and from 12" with rapid fire on the plasma it's better against well armoured infantry.

 

The assault cannon is only better at ranges 13" to 24"

[GreyCrow]

I'm thinking about running dual Razorbacks in my Imperial Fists army, at the moment there won't be very much other armor, just an Ironclad Dreadnought and a Stormtalon. Maybe a single Land Speeder. My heavy weapons will come mostly from devastators of course to maximize my chapter tactics. I'm wondering how to equip my dual razorbacks, i guess it just comes down to whatever the rest of my army brings. 

 

I think that in the end it doesnt really matter that much what weapons the Razorbacks have specifically, it just has to balance out with the rest of your force. If I put lascannons in my devastator squad I might want Heavy Bolters on my Razorbacks, Stormtalon and Tactical Squads. And vice versa. It's just too bad that the Razorback box comes with only 1 turret with 2 out of 4 options, and you can't even really switch between those 2 unless you're into magnatising (which im not really). Guess I'll have to order some turrets from Forgeworld.

 

I agree with that, and it's a pain that only 2 of the 5 loadouts are available (not even the Heavy Flamers !)

 

Conversions are relatively easy to make though, for the assault cannon, you can just cut the barrels of the Heavy Bolters and glue Assault Cannon barrels from elsewhere.

The Las/Plas is perhaps the easiest to make, by cutting a Lascannon and glueing 2 Plasmaguns/pistols end. I did it with the Plasma Pistols and that looks relatively nice !

[Excubitor]

Also for the Assault cannons, the turret set-up is the same as the weapon on the Redeemer/crusader sprue

[Brother_Marius]

 

I'm thinking about running dual Razorbacks in my Imperial Fists army, at the moment there won't be very much other armor, just an Ironclad Dreadnought and a Stormtalon. Maybe a single Land Speeder. My heavy weapons will come mostly from devastators of course to maximize my chapter tactics. I'm wondering how to equip my dual razorbacks, i guess it just comes down to whatever the rest of my army brings. 

 

I think that in the end it doesnt really matter that much what weapons the Razorbacks have specifically, it just has to balance out with the rest of your force. If I put lascannons in my devastator squad I might want Heavy Bolters on my Razorbacks, Stormtalon and Tactical Squads. And vice versa. It's just too bad that the Razorback box comes with only 1 turret with 2 out of 4 options, and you can't even really switch between those 2 unless you're into magnatising (which im not really). Guess I'll have to order some turrets from Forgeworld.

 

I agree with that, and it's a pain that only 2 of the 5 loadouts are available (not even the Heavy Flamers !)

 

Conversions are relatively easy to make though, for the assault cannon, you can just cut the barrels of the Heavy Bolters and glue Assault Cannon barrels from elsewhere.

The Las/Plas is perhaps the easiest to make, by cutting a Lascannon and glueing 2 Plasmaguns/pistols end. I did it with the Plasma Pistols and that looks relatively nice !

 

 

Oh yes that's right I forgot about the Heavy Flamer. Only 2 out of 5 then. 

 

Side-note: is it really worth it over a Rhino? Rhino is a certain amount of points, and for +20 points you'd get a twinlinked heavy bolter on a vanilla Razorback, and any of the other weapons are even +40 pts compared to a Rhino... thinking about it that way, is it even worth it to take multiple Razorbacks instead of simply going for Rhino's and spending the points elsewhere?