Razorbacks in 7th edition ?

[GreyCrow]

 

Oh yes that's right I forgot about the Heavy Flamer. Only 2 out of 5 then. 

 

Side-note: is it really worth it over a Rhino? Rhino is a certain amount of points, and for +20 points you'd get a twinlinked heavy bolter on a vanilla Razorback, and any of the other weapons are even +40 pts compared to a Rhino... thinking about it that way, is it even worth it to take multiple Razorbacks instead of simply going for Rhino's and spending the points elsewhere? 

 

 

I think it really depends on 2 things. 1) How you want your army to play and 2) What is the loadout of the unit inside.

 

If you like to go straight in the face of your opponent to deliver your units, Razorbacks are not woth it. They will attract more attention than a Rhino and you will lose points. If you like to play more careful then move in at the last moment, Razorbacks are interesting because they have good range to engage their targets.

 

In addition, from personal experience, if you have a kitted out squad, the Rhino is a better option. Put simply, you either spend many points on the Razorbacks or on the squad inside. There's a guy in my club who plays his squads as 5 Tacticals with a Flamer and a regular sergeant in Razorbacks and they usually do very well !

But any unit that needs to shoot their weapons to be really effective will lose out on the Razorback. In the Rhinos, they can shoot from the hatch while they can't from the Razorbacks, so they have to expose themselves and put the Razorback in a good delivery position where it will die.

[knife&fork]

Outflanking razorbacks are a completely different matter. 

 

They work great both as late game scoring and making your opponent nervous about the table edges. 

66% chance to drive in from the edge you want, and make sure to place a good objective on both in case you get the less than ideal roll.

6" drive in, 6" dismount and then a 6-12" zone of death for the guns of your mounted squad. 6"+8 (template) - 48" for the transport itself. 

 

TL-HF really shines in this role as you can tank shock a unit sitting on an objective. Either they'll run or you push them into a nicely packed formation so you can toast them with the heavy flamer. 

You can also tag-team with the mounted unit is you have a meched up squad. Drive in and disembark, shoot melta at the transport and use the TL-HF on the surviving passengers. 

 

Outflank also gives you a much better shot at landing side and rear armor. Extremely useful vs things like wave serpents or russes. 

 

 

TLDR: Razorbacks rule with the Raven guard chapter trait.

[Emperors Immortals]

Baal preds too, but I know you know that. ;p

 

I think that the point I was making before was that a RB doesn't fit into MY playstyle. I like to keep my rhinos moving fast so I can take advantage of bolster fire at rapid range. I also take full melta so again, fast moving short range units.

 

A list like Deus is a great idea, and I think it was CptIdaho had good results with his UM, taught me to tank block with my CSM, and I can see a HF variant being really worthwhile in that case.

 

I also used to run 6man death co in a basic flamer or bolster back, on a fast chassis it worked nicely and presented the threat of a flanking heavy flamer.

 

RazorBacks are iconic though, and I wish they worked a bit differently.

[knife&fork]

In today's meta I don't want to place anything lower than AV13 on the board turn 1 so It's the 'scout' USR that makes all the difference.

 

Think of it like this;

Q: Why do we have a problem with rhinos and razorbacks?

A: It's because they are so fragile that they can get taken out of action before they get to do their job. (scoring, getting a unit in position, protection)

 

With outflank we not only add another job for the razorback, disruption, simply by placing it in reserves it has already fulfilled part of that job! And if you don't face strong interceptor fire it is almost guaranteed to give you an objective uncontested or an alpha strike on some enemy unit. 

In that way it functions more like a drop pod than a normal transport. 

 

 

The Baal-pred as you mention works in a similar way, but it's 'only' a tank and I feel that it's quite fragile considering the cost. 

[GreyCrow]

Think of it like this;

Q: Why do we have a problem with rhinos and razorbacks?

A: It's because they are so fragile that they can get taken out of action before they get to do their job. (scoring, getting a unit in position, protection)

 

With outflank we not only add another job for the razorback, disruption, simply by placing it in reserves it has already fulfilled part of that job! And if you don't face strong interceptor fire it is almost guaranteed to give you an objective uncontested or an alpha strike on some enemy unit. 

In that way it functions more like a drop pod than a normal transport. 

 

I agree with your Q/A, which is why any Rhino/Razorbacks list must have alternative tanks for the enemy to shoot at imho. I don't think a Land Raider is viable as an armoured distraction (correct me if I'm wrong there !) because it is too hard to kill, and all the "regular" anti tank weapons will rather shoot at the Rhinos for the easy disruption. What I mean by regular anti tank are all the strength 6 to 8 without any special rule like Melta or Lance.

I find that Vindicators, Predators and Dreadnoughts work well to soak up fire that would be reserved for the Rhinos.

 

Also, because that they're likely to get destroyed before going too deep in the battlefield, I feel that squads mounted on Rhinos should aim for the midfield rather than plan to go deep into the enemy DZ unless they have a special rule that allows to Outflank.

 

Regarding Razorbacks and Outflank, they can be a good tool indeed but I feel that 6 Marines is a small number for Outflanking. 9 to 10 Marines in a Rhino however is an ugly sight for the enemy to see behind their lines, so they'll divert forces for a few turns to take care of them. Of course, that's if you want to Outflank as a Tactical tool rather than as a distraction tool : a plasmagun squad with a TLLC Razorback Outflanking is likely to damage vehicles on their rear armour.

[MisterDutch]

 

 

Oh yes that's right I forgot about the Heavy Flamer. Only 2 out of 5 then. 

 

Side-note: is it really worth it over a Rhino? Rhino is a certain amount of points, and for +20 points you'd get a twinlinked heavy bolter on a vanilla Razorback, and any of the other weapons are even +40 pts compared to a Rhino... thinking about it that way, is it even worth it to take multiple Razorbacks instead of simply going for Rhino's and spending the points elsewhere? 

 

 

I think it really depends on 2 things. 1) How you want your army to play and 2) What is the loadout of the unit inside.

 

If you like to go straight in the face of your opponent to deliver your units, Razorbacks are not woth it. They will attract more attention than a Rhino and you will lose points. If you like to play more careful then move in at the last moment, Razorbacks are interesting because they have good range to engage their targets.

 

In addition, from personal experience, if you have a kitted out squad, the Rhino is a better option. Put simply, you either spend many points on the Razorbacks or on the squad inside. There's a guy in my club who plays his squads as 5 Tacticals with a Flamer and a regular sergeant in Razorbacks and they usually do very well !

But any unit that needs to shoot their weapons to be really effective will lose out on the Razorback. In the Rhinos, they can shoot from the hatch while they can't from the Razorbacks, so they have to expose themselves and put the Razorback in a good delivery position where it will die.

 

 

Very good point you make here. I think that I will glue my razorback turrets as the twinlinked lascannon variant, so that I can use that whenever I want a shooty transport, but when I am gonna rush it forward, I might as well take a Rhino for much less points. And a second stormbolter for +5 pts if I like me some extra dakka. 

[minigun762]

 

 And a second stormbolter for +5 pts if I like me some extra dakka. 

 

 

I wish the Rhino kit came with two SB. I'd add both all the time. 

[A D-B]

They work ok, but glances still kill them just as quickly.

 

Unless your list is built to be extremely aggressive I wouldn't recommend razors for objective capping. They are very easy to take out and then you're stuck without transport. 

If you still want to run them I say either one works fine, depends on what you have in your list besides the razor. 

 

For myself when I take them I go as cheap as possible (I quite like the heavy flamer version but only because mines are fast). I don't count on the weapon to do much, tank shocks are a more useful tool for pushing things off objectives. 

 

Dude, what do you do to model the heavy flamer turret?

[Ishagu]

On the subject of Rhinos and what not, although they are delicate, the great enemy - Heldrake - is now practically impotent at it's attempts at getting to our troops inside one.

[GreyCrow]

On the subject of Rhinos and what not, although they are delicate, the great enemy - Heldrake - is now practically impotent at it's attempts at getting to our troops inside one.

 

That's a good point, the nerf to Vector strike and their turret neck means they won't pop the Rhinos open then flame the content to death in a single turn !

[incinerator950]

Sigh.

[Ishagu]

In my last game two Heldrakes failed to pop open a Rhino, only flamed 5 Marines due to good positioning, and were shot down by Stormtalons :-D

[Excubitor]

And a second stormbolter for +5 pts if I like me some extra dakka.

I wish the Rhino kit came with two SB. I'd add both all the time.

On one of mine I have the driver marine with a bolter in each hand modeled for one, and on another I'm going to have a marine with a storm bolter held up while pointing with his other hand. You've just got to be a bit creative

I used to have one with a marine with Storm Bolter shooting a gargoyle that had landed on the Rhino, but someone walked off with that Was my only painted model at the time too.

[*Furyou Miko]

Dude, what do you do to model the heavy flamer turret?

Immolators.

Actually, for Razorbacks, the conversion to any weapon type is really easy. Take a standard heavy bolter turred, chop off the bolters just inside the cowling, and replace the barrels with the weapons from another kit, for example a Bhaal Predator.

Edit: Except Las/Plas, I guess, but there's a Forge World for that. Or an ancient 2e kit dredged up from the archives of history...

[Excubitor]

Las/plas is just replace one of the lascannons with the front parts of a pair of plasma guns/pistols

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, but that's....boring, and anatomically incorrect since they count as two different weapons. I swapped the second lascannon for a searchlight and mounted two plasma guns on the stormbolter-pintle. Then again, i did get accused of modelling for advantage because of that once...

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, but that's....boring, and anatomically incorrect since they count as two different weapons. I swapped the second lascannon for a searchlight and mounted two plasma guns on the stormbolter-pintle. Then again, i did get accused of modelling for advantage because of that once...

 

I really wonder whether they were intended as 2 different weapons though. When you look at the original official Las/Plas turret (see below), they're mounted on the same targetting array.

 

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_2HAuhOIOb6s/R0Cr-hojctI/AAAAAAAAA_M/N8NnY8zFkh0/100_1979.JPG

 

And from Forgeworld : http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/large/las-plas-rb2.jpg

 

Forgeworld would seem to indicate 2 different weapons, but being on the same turret one could argue that they are "built in" each other.

 

In any case, I think that playing them as 2 weapons is safer, but still.

 

Regarding your modeling for advantage, I can understand why some people would be upset, that makes the plasmaguns gain 2" for Rapid Fire. Not saying you did that specifically for that advantage, I totally understand the logic of having these two weapons not mounted on the turret ;)

[Ishagu]

It's a single weapon, not one or the other.

[knife&fork]

 

 

Dude, what do you do to model the heavy flamer turret?

 

 

Two land speeder heavy flamers as shown here.

 

http://i.imgur.com/hiN7CR2.jpg?1

 

I just trimmed the pegs slightly (still works with the stock weapons) and used a small amount of super glue so I can break them off if I wish. 

In this picture I had dropped the turret, so the top is missing. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's a single weapon, not one or the other.

 

In point of fact, the previous edition FAQ specified that they are two differently weapon systems; a Weapon Destroyed result, for example, would only deprive you of either the lascannon or the plasma guns, not both.

[Sohail187]

Since 7th I have been running minimum 3 razorbacks with 3 twin linked assault cannons, with 5 man GH squads inside... and I will never look back. yes they are fragile, but u can always try and move form cover to cover.  Razorbacks all the way! :D

[incinerator950]

I would love to take five man plague or noise marine squads in them.

[*Furyou Miko]

Why not 6 man units?

[incinerator950]

Razorback cap at 5?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Razorback cap at 5?

 

At 6, actually.