Rerolling DTW

[redmapa]

I have a question about rerolling failed deny the witch rolls, say I have Silas Alberec (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf) in my army, he gives this bonus:

 

 

Soul-seared Champions: Any unit in the same detachment as Silas Alberec with the Chapter Tactics rule may re-roll any failed Deny the Witch tests they are called upon to take.

 

For example: My opponent casts a power with 3 dice, I need 3 dice to deny, I roll and fail with one dice, do I reroll the failed dice or all 3?

[Raeven]

I would say it's all three. Your retooling the test, which is all the dice your are using to try and deny with.

[Morollan]

Compare this to the Grey Knight Reinforced Aegis rule:

 

'Reinforced Aegis:This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

 

How would you interpret that one? Is a roll the roll of a single dice and therefore you can re-roll any that fail? Note that this is supposed to be the improved version of the Aegis which now says 'A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls results of 1 when making Deny the Witch tests.' which clearly would allow individual dice to be re-rolled.

[Venemox]

Big Rule Book, under General Principles, Re-Rolling:

 

"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to

the re-roll."

 

Seems fairly self evident.  As there is no specific permission to re-roll single or select dice while Denying the Witch, re-rolls MUST include all original dice.

[Morollan]

 

Big Rule Book, under General Principles, Re-Rolling:

 

"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to

the re-roll."

 

Seems fairly self evident.  As there is no specific permission to re-roll single or select dice while Denying the Witch, re-rolls MUST include all original dice.

 

 

 

But that only applies when you are rolling multiple dice and adding them together, as described under Modifying Dice Rolls in the paragraph above the Re-roll section that you are quoting.

 

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6 and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add them together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a result between 2 and 12.

 

 

In the case of DtW you are rolling x number of dice individually so I don't think it's clear.

[Raeven]

Same reason you reroll all the dice when making a psychic power check. It's the attempt hats important. Not the dice count. All the dice count towards a single attempt. You are reroling failed attempts.

 

Unless the wording says reroll particular results, like all ones, then you have to reroll all dice.

 

I have a slightly related question. Is deny the witch considered a save?

[redmapa]

 

Is deny the witch considered a save?

 

I'd say no, its a test or check in the same sense manifesting powers is but I could be wrong.

 

Thanks everyone, I'll be rerolling everything.

[Venemox]

 

 

Big Rule Book, under General Principles, Re-Rolling:

 

"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to

the re-roll."

 

Seems fairly self evident.  As there is no specific permission to re-roll single or select dice while Denying the Witch, re-rolls MUST include all original dice.

 

 

 

But that only applies when you are rolling multiple dice and adding them together, as described under Modifying Dice Rolls in the paragraph above the Re-roll section that you are quoting.

 

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6 and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add them together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a result between 2 and 12.

 

 

In the case of DtW you are rolling x number of dice individually so I don't think it's clear.

 

Re-Rolls and Modifying Dice Rolls are two different sub sections under Dice.  This is denoted by them having the same size header font,m which is smaller than the header font for Dice.  They are independent thoughts from each other, and the applications need not be tied together.  Using that logic, you could only randomize your roll-offs of your re-rolled, modified, divided scatter d3's and d66's.

[Morollan]

 

 

 

Big Rule Book, under General Principles, Re-Rolling:

 

"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice, not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Any modifiers that applied to the first roll also apply to

the re-roll."

 

Seems fairly self evident.  As there is no specific permission to re-roll single or select dice while Denying the Witch, re-rolls MUST include all original dice.

 

 

 

But that only applies when you are rolling multiple dice and adding them together, as described under Modifying Dice Rolls in the paragraph above the Re-roll section that you are quoting.

 

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6 and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add them together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a result between 2 and 12.

 

 

In the case of DtW you are rolling x number of dice individually so I don't think it's clear.

 

Re-Rolls and Modifying Dice Rolls are two different sub sections under Dice.  This is denoted by them having the same size header font,m which is smaller than the header font for Dice.  They are independent thoughts from each other, and the applications need not be tied together.  Using that logic, you could only randomize your roll-offs of your re-rolled, modified, divided scatter d3's and d66's.

 

 

You seem to have missed the point that the earlier paragraph is telling us what is meant by "2D6", "3D6" etc and I don't think you can then rely on a further paragraph describing how to deal with re-rolls of such dice rolls whilst ignoring the definition provided and pretending that it applies to a completely different set of rolls. A DtW roll is not a xD6 roll and therefore procedures relating to xD6 rolls do not apply.

[Grey Mage]

Anyone want to compare it to the wording for say, twin linked shooting?

[Seahawk]

Twinlinked:

"rerolls all failed To Hit rolls."

 

"you must reroll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice." (blast weapons)

 

"must reroll failed To Wound rolls and armor penetration rolls." (templates)

 

 

 

But really, this should be obvious:

Deny the Witch:

"Then roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points expended"

 

Modifying Dice Rolls:

"You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on."

 

Reroll:

"If you reroll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must reroll all the dice."

Looks pretty clear to me, and the terminology agrees, that you'd reroll all the dice.

 

 

Now! To the OP's actual question that seems to have gotten lost:

For example: My opponent casts a power with 3 dice, I need 3 dice to deny, I roll and fail with one dice, do I reroll the failed dice or all 3?

"unless the rules specify otherwise" (pg 11)

 

You'd only reroll the failures, because that's what the rules say to do.

[Morollan]

 

But really, this should be obvious:

Deny the Witch:

"Then roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points expended"

 

Modifying Dice Rolls:

"You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on."

 

Reroll:

"If you reroll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must reroll all the dice."

 

Except on that basis you can never deny any power that is cast with more than one success because the rest of the 'Modifying Dice Rolls' rule that you partially quoted above goes on to say "Roll the indicated number of dice and add them together". I repeat what I said earlier. DtW is not a xD6 roll. Rules for re-rolling xD6 rolls simply do not apply. I'm not necessarily saying that your conclusion is wrong but the basis on which you reached it certainly is.

[Brother Casman]

To add further fuel to the fire: Take Psychic Test, paragraph 3

For each individual result of 4+, the Psyker has successfully harnessed one Warp Charge point.

Also: Deny The Witch, paragraph 5 (just after the list of modifiers)

For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified.

This strongly suggests to me that each d6 roll is a separate attempt to harness/nullify a Warp Charge point, so you would only reroll the failures, and not all of the dice. If you reroll all of the dice, you'd be rerolling successes with your failures, which we are not told to do.

[Seahawk]

@Morollan: Good point. It's all moot anyway, because the ability specifically states that you reroll all failures, which generally means any dice that were not successes.

 

Everything else that's been hashed over in this thread actually has nothing to do with the question at hand and has only served to conflate the issue.

 

 

To answer the OP: When you're allowed to reroll all failures, that means you reroll all non-successes.

[Raeven]

But that's not what the rule says.  It says, failed Deny the Witch tests.   Not DtW roll's or failures.

 

I would agree with you, if it had the wording you imply.  

[Brother Casman]

Yes, and the result of the tests are successes or failures. We're told to count the individual successes, so each d6 roll must also be a separate test.

[Teetengee]

I'm not sure that makes sense. A failed test is when you have failed to equal or exceed the enemy's successful rolls. What does the faq currently say?

[Brother Casman]

No, a failed test is when you have failed to nullify a Warp Charge point.

[Teetengee]

What rule defines it that way? As far as I understand (mind you I don't have the book in front of me atm so I may be forgetting something) every time an opponent gets enough successes you may attempt a deny the witch test comprised of however many warp charges you spend worth of dice.

[Raeven]

No, a failed test is when you have failed to nullify a Warp Charge point.

 

The rules say nothing of the sort.

 

"If the total number of nullified Warp Charges is equal to or greater than the number of harnessed Warp Charges, the DtW test has been passed..."

[Brother Casman]

I quoted the relevant rule above:

For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified.

If an individual 6+ is a success, each result of 1-5 must therefore be an individual failure.

[Teetengee]

Each roll is an individual failure, if it said to reroll all failed deny the witch rolls then I would agree with you. But it doesn't, it says tests, and I am not sure that tests are the same as rolls.

[Brother Casman]

Yes, each roll gives either a success or a failure result - which we see in terms of tests or checks.

 

Evidently, I'm not going to convince anyone, so I'll concede the point. Just reroll everything.

[Raeven]

All I'll say is notice that the portion I quoted uses the singular form of test, not the plural.  So, no, a DtW test is not a combination of multiple tests, but is a single test done with one or more dice.

[Teetengee]

That was my thinking too. In other words the test is successful if the power is stopped and failed if it is not.