Help beating Eldar

[FUZIONZ96]

Hi guys,

 

I've been playing this guy for a while now and I am still unable to beat his current army.

Im not sure if this is exact but the army goes something like this.

 

HQ

-Eldrad Ulthran

-Farseer on Jetbike with Mantle of the laughing god and spear...

with spirit stones and all that stuff.

Troops

-5x Dire Avenger in Wave Serpent

-3x Jetbike

-3x Jetbike

-4x Jetbike

Fast Attack

-6 Warp spiders

-6 Swooping hawks

Heavy Support

-3x War walkers

-3x Vaul's Wrath battery

-Wraithknight with shield and sun cannon

Fortification

-Skyshield

 

Usually the skyshield goes down and on it goes the Vaul's wrath with eldrad. Then the farseer on bike and the wave serpent w/ Dire avengers hide. The wraithknight is too big to hide so it just stands there or on the skyshield. The Jetbikes, warp spiders and the swooping hawks are all held in reserve and the war walkers outflank.

 

This is a 1650 point list and is very effective in tournaments. We are playing an 1850 point game so there will be 200 points of something else in there. Unsure what though.

 

I need some tips on how to beat this with my IG/AM...

I pretty much have everything and I can always proxy something. However I don't have any super heavies or anything like that...

I have 2 vendettas/Valkyries and 6 lemon russ' with varying loadouts. And there is always the opportunity to ally with GK, SM or SW.

 

Please comment with your ideas, feel free to ask about tactics etc.

 

Thanks

-M

[Teetengee]

It seems like he depends heavily on the invulnerable save from the sky shield and that he doesn't have huge amounts of mech. I think your best bet is to drown him in lasguns. Take at least 150 guardsmen, preferably more. Also several heavy weapons squads to deal with the vehicles and the wraithknight. Don't worry about good ap (autocannons are probably a good choice) as he is going to put whatever you threaten with it on the skyshield anyways. Kill him with weight of fire. Consider also taking some aegis lines to hide behind. You might also want to consider vendettas as he might be adding a flyer, and lascannons are never a bad choice to be firing at wraithknights. They can also probably maneuver so as to get into hover and get in the rear arc of the wave serpent. Consider also maxing your master of ordnance in order to shoot a couple shots at the Vaul's wrath battery, but only if you tend to roll low for scatter.

[lionofjudah]

I recommend pie plates... Lots of them. The more template and ignore cover weapons you can throw on him the better you will have it. Otherwise get ready for some serious use of cover on your end;)

[Teetengee]

Doesn't the skyshield give an invuln save and not a cover save though? Also some mathhammer

Against toughness 4 3+ save.

It will take approximately 54 shots from guardsmen lasguns to remove a three man unit (so those jetbikes will take around one round of shooting from a platoon to remove). Approximately 18 shots per wound.

Against toughness 3 4+ save:

It will take 8 guardsmen lasgun shots per wound to remove.

Against toughness 3 3+ save

It will take 12 guardsmen lasgun shots per wound to remove.

 

On average it will take approximately 180+48+72=300 lasgun shots to wipe out his hawks, spiders, and all of the jetbikes.

Using first rank fire second rank fire and other such tricks along with guardsmen in large squads* alongside smaller units to put the last few wounds on the enemy means you can wipe a large number of his units in one turn of shooting. Now he will need to try to take out large numbers of squads while he can only target a small percentage of them each turn.

 

*For squad splitting you want to have shy of the expected number of guardmen to take out each of his infantry/jetbike squads in one round. (Keep in mind orders and rapid fire considerations in light of terrain and deployment type.) You will also want a bunch of smaller chaff squads to take out the remainder and target saturate. If you aren't going to be using lots of orders, just take them in minimum sized units. Don't worry about cover and invuln as his armour saves will be better.

I would suggest spending at least 1000 points on just straight infantry to bog him down and control the board. Remember, you can tarpit walkers and wraithknights with them once they have killed the chaff.

[FUZIONZ96]

High numbers of bodies might work. If I had a blob what I would usually do is put a priest in there and usually ally with inquisition and have coteaz and an or do xenos inquisitor with all the grenades.

So they're fearless, reroll to hit on the charge, can shoot at things incoming because of coteaz and have some psychic ability. Try to get forewarning for the 4+ inv save and use war hymns to make it rerollable.

 

Or I have tried before sticking in a space wolf such as Ragnar Blackmans or a dark angel such as Azrael. These all work well IMO...

Azrael gives a 4+ inv basic and Ragnar grants +d3 attacks on charge instead of +1

[WarriorFish]

I'm stuck at work so don't have time to add a large reply to what has already been said, but generally you should try to counter his strengths by taking numbers. Not blobs, as he can concentrate his fire there - Eldars have good weaponry so if you can dilute this by forcing him to squander it on smaller units that might help. Take the numbers to weather the storm and throw as many dice as you can.

[Teetengee]

Yeah, on further analysis, I would agree with Warrior Fish, the benefits of blobs don't really outweigh the drawbacks, but huge numbers are the way to go. The main question is where to put heavy weapons. I would be tempted to put autocannons in the middle of each squad and still go with the shoot the chaff then shoot the big things plan.

[fearlessgod]

I'll also advocate on taking more troops and using your firepower to your advantage. The ability to throw "buckets" of dice each shooting phase will wear an Eldar force down quickly. Add in 3 LRBT and a Wyvren (or 2) and your Eldar opponent will be hurting in a hurry. The unintended benefit of a larger force is your opponent has way too many of your units to deal with to be effective.

 

Remember... the harder you make your opponent work, the better your chance for victory.

 

To be honest, for the last 2 editions Astra Militarum (IG) armies have gone the way of Valkries, Vet Squads and low model elite armies. There is something to be said for the tried and true "horde" Astra Militarum armies featuring troops, tanks and tons of heavy weapons (on everything). Just a thought.

[FUZIONZ96]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Im now going to count all of my guardsmen to see how many lasguns I have ;).

 

Ill rustle up a list and I might add the results of the battle on here.

 

-M

[Teetengee]

Sounds good, also if you can provide pics of your glorious horde, that would be wonderful.

[Thoqqu]

Ccs, astropath, MoO, lascannon

Either comissar or regimental standard

(1-2 lvl 1 psykers?)

 

Platoon

Pcs, AC

Blob 50 5 AC

Aegis defence line

 

Vets, chimera, AC

Vets, chimera, AC

 

3 or 6 scout sentinels (outflank)

Vendetta

Vendetta

2x battle tank of choice (add pask?)

 

Not a finished list so there is some room to play with.

 

Aegis provides solid firebase for troops and tanks while chimeras and walkers contest objectives. Vendettas provide firepower and probably draw some of it themselves, forcing opponent to choose his targets.

[Kilofix]

Is the 4++ the only problem?

 

I'm not that familiar with Eldar but the Battery is only T3 right? (Though I reliaze that the WKnight is separately a tough MC)

 

So with the 4++ you want lots of hits to force him to miss his save right?

 

Instead of a billion Lasguns - what about:

• Space Marine - Thunderfire Cannon (Heavy 4 Blast, Str 5 Ignores Cover or Heavy 4 Blast, Str 6)
• Proxy a Vendetta as an IA:Vulture with Punisher (Heavy 20, Str 5)
• Just lots of Mortar Heavy Weapon Teams
• Just lots of Wyverns
• Squad of Hellhounds (if the board is small enough for you to reach them)
• IA: Quad / Thudd Gun
• Space Marine - Drop Pod Sternguard Combi-Flamers

 

For the WKnight - I'd try to kill it with a full Vet squad with Meltabombs (the whole squad can take Meltabombs - like 10 Meltabombs).

[Teetengee]

Artillery units are all toughness 7. Although the vulture is probably a good idea. A unit of autocannon or missile launcher devs wouldn't go astray either. And coteaz to give interception abilities will seriously threaten those swooping hawks.

[WarriorFish]

I return to find no real need to add more! Well done comrades, all I'll add is that Wyverns will be a good addition. Cheap as chips and will force lots of save :tu: Don't be afraid to experiment, if you're losing badly each time what have you to lose? :)

[march10k]

Punisher pask (no sponsons, they'd be overkill and not rending) with LRBT buddy

LRBT

2xPCS with autocannon and chimera (hull heavy bolter)

6xIS with autocannon and chimera (hull heavy bolter)

3x3 armored sentinel with autocannons

 

That's 8 multilasers, 17 autocannons, 8 heavy bolters (not counting the ones on the proper tanks, which have better things to do), pask, manticore, 2x battle cannon.  Stupid amount of shooting, and not much for those pesky eldar to shoot back at.  The LRBTs, being AP3, are intended to force bikes to jink (so they snap shot) while you focus your real shooting elsewhere, and they can also remove a squad of aspect warriors all at once...actually, with swooping hawks, they'll do it with ridiculous ease due to deepstrike clustering...but if you wanted to, you could substitute exterminators with heavy bolter sponsons for the same points to stay with the "I have more autocannons than you have models on the board" theme...Seriously, you can have more heavy weapons than he has models, and not have a single boot in the mud.

[Kilofix]

Oh - one other thing that may be cheap model-wise.

 

1 Heretical Inquisitor with Psyocculum from Codex Inquisition. You could kit bash him from almost anything. You can take him solo as an Allied Detachment. He AND the unit he joins gets BS10 against any unit with a Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers. Also, with Psyk-Out Grenades he will reduce any Psychic unit he charges to Initiative 1.

 

Could also add Condemnor Boltgun to cause Perils.

 

Then you could start thinking about adding Coteaz to your Blob so that when he Outflanks the whole Blob can out-of-phase fire on him. But I suppose that's going down a slippery slope to adding C:=I=. Still, its an option.

[Teetengee]

Psyoc in a squad of 50 would tear apart nearly any psyker, even at one shot per model and only wounding on 6s against a 2+ save that is still 50*35/36*1/6*1/6=1.35 wounds past, which may not sound like much, but that is in the absolute worst case scenario. If you are wounding on 5s against a 3+ save and are 72 shots off that is 7.78 wounds past, enough to kill just about any psyker. Goodbye farseer. Goodbye eldrad.

[fearlessgod]

I return to find no real need to add more! Well done comrades, all I'll add is that Wyverns will be a good addition. Cheap as chips and will force lots of save Don't be afraid to experiment, if you're losing badly each time what have you to lose?

^THIS^

The Wyvren is cheap and effective against almost every opponent. Four shots a turn, twin-linked (re-rolls missed to hit rolls), with blast, shred (re-rolls missed to wound rolls) and ignores cover... and a 48 inch range? What's not to love. I plan on getting a pair of them. They will do a great job against Eldat, as well Nid's, Orks, DE and even Marines.

[march10k]

I love wyverns, too...faced four of them with my mechanized deathwing...ROFLstomped all the way to the bank.  Just like longfang spam (to use an older example), there are a few things where wyverns fail.  Hard to get a lot of hits against well-spaced termies on the few turns that they're even dismounted.  TWO wyverns is good in an all-comers list, but don't sell out to them.  I would say a pair of wyverns and two solo demolishers is about perfect.  Want more tanks?  That's what HQ is for, lol.

[Emperors Immortals]

I play Eldar, im scared of wyverns and punishers. take many smaller squads as said for massive shots and limiting return fire and autocannons for serpents.

[Pyro X]

if you really want a great 4++ for the blob, use Azreal of the dark angels. He gives the squad fearless and 4++ that can't be removed with things like vindacare assassin (because you can't target the helmet barrier).

[march10k]

if you really want a great 4++ for the blob, use Azreal of the dark angels. He gives the squad fearless and 4++ that can't be removed with things like vindacare assassin (because you can't target the helmet barrier).

QFT...an opponent tried to strip the 4++ that my PFG was providing to a crusader the other night...doesn't work that way, he has to shoot the PFG bearer!