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++Gods of the Arena; World Eaters' Glory Everlasting++

KrautScientist Relict Jaspcat Biohazard Flint13 World Eaters Awesome Incarnate

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#1526
Berzerker88

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A Khorne/World Eater Daemon Prince will still just do fine thaking the Talisman of Burning Blood is a nice pro.

What do you think about the Brass Collar? It could certainly help mitigate the psychic disadvantage. Though in general the Talisman is probably better.

#1527
Commissar K.

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A Khorne/World Eater Daemon Prince will still just do fine thaking the Talisman of Burning Blood is a nice pro.

What do you think about the Brass Collar? It could certainly help mitigate the psychic disadvantage. Though in general the Talisman is probably better.

 

I like it as a potential secondary Artefact but at the same time I also think that Scorn of Sorcery is easier to use. For things that are essentially defensive I tend to believe that easier defense always wins out on model specific defences with the particular area of effect in question for the Brass Collar to actually do something. It could indeed damage the potential Psyker in question but the massive advantage of Scorn of Sorcery is that its 24" of any World Eater unit and negated on a 4+.
If we for example look at stronger Psykers, such as Tzeentch (and likely others) we also see that they have ways to manipulate their Psycic Power outcome. The moment we have to deal with that (and often we really want to) we're still forced to beat them at their own game.

So since we often only have one Artefact to choose from, two if you really want to, I'm inclined to put the Brass Collar on spot number three in terms of relevancy. Where the Talisman of Burning Blood and other weapon upgrades, such as the Axe of Blind Fury, come on spot number one and two. 

Now I have to say this is with a little bit of assumption that others have ways to manipulate their Psycic Powers if they deem them to be really relevant. The thing is that if opponents roll high on their Psycic Powers I usually prefer a 50/50 shot anywhere on the field versus beating that within the area of the Brass Collar character. AoS has a compairable design for one of the artefacts and one of the reasons it gets rarely to never used is because Blood Tithe points remained there and give a very similar effect to the Strategems in question. 



#1528
Commissar K.

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So with the Codex out now for a while I wanted to cover the updates once more and the positive effects they have on World Eater armies. In general I think the updated costs and changes could easily be a whole topic on it's own but the relation of their effect on armies truely massively differs per Legion. So much that I'd rather discuss this topic per Legion topic instead of one massive 'change A + Legion X + Effect Y'.

First of a nice list of the changes is something I believe will benifit every World Eater player so here we go:
++ UNITS ++
- First things first, Khârn went from 174 to 160 which in itself is great. I believe our World Eater specific Warlord Trait is not good but running Khârn remains a great plan because our Lefion Trait is fine and our other Artefact and Warlord Trait options are fine also. So for all who question themselves, is he worth it? Yes, a charging Khârn is most certainly worth 160 points.
- Chaos Bikers went from 31 to 25 so thake that if you feel like it.
- Chaos Cultists went from 5 to 4, in general I think World Eater Cultists are not bad. You keep the Flamers, pistol and weapon and I think we're rolling fine with a squad of 20. 
- Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour went from 122 to 105, was allready a decent choice, certainly cooler with a Axe of Blind Fury.
- Chaos Predator went from 102 to 90, sweet deal, allready was a solid choice.
- Chaos Vindicator went from 160 to 135, still very limited in it's attacks so I dont think it's worth it. Likely would have considered it more if it was around 100.
- Defiler had a very cool drop, went from 216 to 152, which seems like a very viable option now.
- Khorne Lord of Skulls is another very cool drop, from 465 to 365, it is just a 30-ish points over the Kytan base cost so I think the KLoS got exactly what he needed if you want to have a centerpiece and dont mind the 570 orso points for it. It can be much more expensive but I really don't feel it needs to be, that ranged offense is legit anyway.
- Maulerfiend got a minor drop, from 149 to 140.
- Mutilators went from 65 to 50, still not relevant to us though.
- Obliterators had a special change so I wanted to mention it, it's still 65 points but from Assault 2 to 4 is legit. I will play these guys now this edition!
- Then Warpsmith got a massive drop aswell from 78 to 45, however we have have great HQ choices so I can't really see myself using it.
- Bloodletters went to 7, which is cool but so far I havnt found a great reason to bring myself to hassle in Daemons. If they get their Codex Im sure a Daemon Detachment becomes a more interesting aspect.

All in all I think the top 5 changes to me are Obliterators, Khârn, Cultists, Predator and suprisingly the Lord of Skulls. Especially the first four mentioned are changes I feel we should all at least in one game profit from. 
 
++ MELEE WEAPONS ++
- Daemonic Axe went from 45 to 10.
- Helforged Sword went from 42 to 10.
- Lightning Claws went from 9/13 to 8/12 but I think that for the Berzerker Champ the Power Fist still beats it, granted it's a good competition.
- Power Fist went from 20 to 12, as we all can probably agree, even more reason to include one.

So nothing too massively significant. I think you don't have to feel bad for the Daemon Prince now but I personally like the Talons too much still. Likewise I think the Claw and Fist change is excellent. 

++ RANGED WEAPONS ++
- Baleflamer went from 60 to 30, Heldrake fans rejoice.
- Hades Autocannon went from 33 to 25, always nice.
- Soulreaper cannon went from 30 to 25.

Some changes that are really hard to notice, the discount on the Baleflamer remains nice.

++ OTHER WARGEAR ++
- Daemonic Icon went from 25 to 15. However as above Im not sold on Daemons just yet. 

re02_preview.jpg

With many of the changes I think that we're open to a whole slew of tactics that are very cool and flavourful. While Im still somewhat upset about the fact that we don't have the melee owning Daemon Prince I might still give the Daemonic Axe Daemon Prince a go now also. Just to see how I like it.
As above the units I am very eager to test out are basically all that recieved a significant discount or bonus. In general I think fans of the World Eater narrative and Army Rules will continue to have their backbone in Berzerkers so ranged support remains essential to guarantee the succes of this tactic. This to me really is where Obliterators could come in as a big change up. Their deep strike tactics and durability is something I can certainly enjoy as it usually will force out an melee awnser as it's actually quite difficult to outshoot Obliterators now. This is a type of tactic that I would forsee mixing up extremely well with that of Berzerkers. 

The Legion Trait we have is pretty much decent for anything so that's a big plus. As before I cannot see myself playing Bikers for 25 points either but it's certainly a nice drop in the right direction and with their likely charge the attack bonus is welcome. Likewise all Helbrutes are unlikely charging candidates in my book but again an additional attack is betetr as say re-rolling Morale msn-wink.gif. If you for example have acces to a Sorcerer with Warp Time and want to use World Eater Warp Talons then that idea seems completely legit to me. 

The Stratagems are great allround, granted Fury of Khorne feels like trap unless we're talking idiotic large Berzerker units. I do not dislike Scorn of Sorcery but offcourse ideally somewhere a Sorcerer is still added to simply provide some great support, offense and defence. Veterans of the Long War is a great Stratagem also for the simple reason that in theory it could allow your Berzerkers to beat up Vechicles that much easier. 
Cross Chaos Legion comparison I will however have to say that World Eaters or Khorne for that matter arn't as blessed as some marks and Legions. Still with the World Eater Legion Trait being what it is I do believe we have the army leverage to make it still work out well.

Looking forward to more opinions and/or new plans!

Cheers,


 


Edited by Commissar K., Yesterday, 08:47 PM.


#1529
Berzerker88

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A Khorne/World Eater Daemon Prince will still just do fine thaking the Talisman of Burning Blood is a nice pro.

What do you think about the Brass Collar? It could certainly help mitigate the psychic disadvantage. Though in general the Talisman is probably better.
I like it as a potential secondary Artefact but at the same time I also think that Scorn of Sorcery is easier to use. For things that are essentially defensive I tend to believe that easier defense always wins out on model specific defences with the particular area of effect in question for the Brass Collar to actually do something. It could indeed damage the potential Psyker in question but the massive advantage of Scorn of Sorcery is that its 24" of any World Eater unit and negated on a 4+.
If we for example look at stronger Psykers, such as Tzeentch (and likely others) we also see that they have ways to manipulate their Psycic Power outcome. The moment we have to deal with that (and often we really want to) we're still forced to beat them at their own game.
So since we often only have one Artefact to choose from, two if you really want to, I'm inclined to put the Brass Collar on spot number three in terms of relevancy. Where the Talisman of Burning Blood and other weapon upgrades, such as the Axe of Blind Fury, come on spot number one and two.
Now I have to say this is with a little bit of assumption that others have ways to manipulate their Psycic Powers if they deem them to be really relevant. The thing is that if opponents roll high on their Psycic Powers I usually prefer a 50/50 shot anywhere on the field versus beating that within the area of the Brass Collar character. AoS has a compairable design for one of the artefacts and one of the reasons it gets rarely to never used is because Blood Tithe points remained there and give a very similar effect to the Strategems in question.
Can't you use them both though? Try to deny with the Brass Collar and use Scorn of Sorcery with another unit if it fails?

I ask because I was considering to give the BCoB to my Dark Apostle but not sure if it's worth the extra command point (I already have the Talisman).

EDIT: Also, why insist on World Eaters sorcerers? The Army rules pretty much force all your models to have the <KHORNE> keyword, so I don't think they're legal. Unless you take an allied detachment with it's own Sorcerers, but then you'd have to pick another Legion for it (and wouldn't make for a very fluffy army, IMHO).

Edited by Berzerker88, Today, 12:06 AM.


#1530
Commissar K.

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Can't you use them both though? Try to deny with the Brass Collar and use Scorn of Sorcery with another unit if it fails?

I ask because I was considering to give the BCoB to my Dark Apostle but not sure if it's worth the extra command point (I already have the Talisman).

 

Its a good question but I do think this is possible as Scorn of Sorcery is not a Deny the witch roll. Keep in mind that effect can usually be only done once as per Deny the Witch rules, assumming the collar effect resolves as usual Deny the Witch effect.

I personally skip on the collar because I like Talisman and I like Axe of Blind Fury a lot, though if you want to stack on effects I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible.



#1531
Berzerker88

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Can't you use them both though? Try to deny with the Brass Collar and use Scorn of Sorcery with another unit if it fails?
I ask because I was considering to give the BCoB to my Dark Apostle but not sure if it's worth the extra command point (I already have the Talisman).


Its a good question but I do think this is possible as Scorn of Sorcery is not a Deny the witch roll. Keep in mind that effect can usually be only done once as per Deny the Witch rules, assumming the collar effect resolves as usual Deny the Witch effect.
I personally skip on the collar because I like Talisman and I like Axe of Blind Fury a lot, though if you want to stack on effects I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible.
Who do you give the axe to? Juggerlord?

#1532
Commissar K.

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A Khorne/World Eater Daemon Prince will still just do fine thaking the Talisman of Burning Blood is a nice pro.

What do you think about the Brass Collar? It could certainly help mitigate the psychic disadvantage. Though in general the Talisman is probably better.
I like it as a potential secondary Artefact but at the same time I also think that Scorn of Sorcery is easier to use. For things that are essentially defensive I tend to believe that easier defense always wins out on model specific defences with the particular area of effect in question for the Brass Collar to actually do something. It could indeed damage the potential Psyker in question but the massive advantage of Scorn of Sorcery is that its 24" of any World Eater unit and negated on a 4+.
If we for example look at stronger Psykers, such as Tzeentch (and likely others) we also see that they have ways to manipulate their Psycic Power outcome. The moment we have to deal with that (and often we really want to) we're still forced to beat them at their own game.
So since we often only have one Artefact to choose from, two if you really want to, I'm inclined to put the Brass Collar on spot number three in terms of relevancy. Where the Talisman of Burning Blood and other weapon upgrades, such as the Axe of Blind Fury, come on spot number one and two.
Now I have to say this is with a little bit of assumption that others have ways to manipulate their Psycic Powers if they deem them to be really relevant. The thing is that if opponents roll high on their Psycic Powers I usually prefer a 50/50 shot anywhere on the field versus beating that within the area of the Brass Collar character. AoS has a compairable design for one of the artefacts and one of the reasons it gets rarely to never used is because Blood Tithe points remained there and give a very similar effect to the Strategems in question.
Can't you use them both though? Try to deny with the Brass Collar and use Scorn of Sorcery with another unit if it fails?

I ask because I was considering to give the BCoB to my Dark Apostle but not sure if it's worth the extra command point (I already have the Talisman).

EDIT: Also, why insist on World Eaters sorcerers? The Army rules pretty much force all your models to have the <KHORNE> keyword, so I don't think they're legal. Unless you take an allied detachment with it's own Sorcerers, but then you'd have to pick another Legion for it (and wouldn't make for a very fluffy army, IMHO).

 

So yeah using them both seems legit, as the Stratagem is used during manifistation (which is even before Deny the Witch).

WE Sorcerers are available if we 'must' ignore the Army Rules in Index, something I dont recommend but what was suggested by someone at 40Ks Facebook a while ago. As the Codex again doesnt cover any of those rules.

As before, page 116 Codex. Psykers cant thake Khorne. World Eaters must have Khorne if they have the option.
Strange.jpg

 

 

 

Can't you use them both though? Try to deny with the Brass Collar and use Scorn of Sorcery with another unit if it fails?
I ask because I was considering to give the BCoB to my Dark Apostle but not sure if it's worth the extra command point (I already have the Talisman).


Its a good question but I do think this is possible as Scorn of Sorcery is not a Deny the witch roll. Keep in mind that effect can usually be only done once as per Deny the Witch rules, assumming the collar effect resolves as usual Deny the Witch effect.
I personally skip on the collar because I like Talisman and I like Axe of Blind Fury a lot, though if you want to stack on effects I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible.
Who do you give the axe to? Juggerlord?

 

Yep or Chaos Lord on Bike/Termy armour. Basically I dont mind an additional mini Khârn :P



#1533
Berzerker88

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@Commissar K True, and you could even go crazy and take Emperor's Children Berzerkers that always fight first (and have that extra attacks on kill stratagem) for extra craziness. That's why I agree with your hypothesis that the Army rules have to still be valid. But I guess we will be sure once the FAQ comes out.

#1534
Swarmlord Unleashed

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Anyone have any idea to convert the lord of contagion to be less nurgley? I was thinking of using him to represent a Chaos Lord in Terminator with the AoBF. My first conversions would be to remove the censers and the icon, cut off the haft of the axe right before and right after his left hand before putting them together again, rotate the right hand holding the axe 90 degrees, cut away the gut and sculpt an armor plate, replace the Nurglings with Skulls, slap two bolter barrels on the now empty left hand and shave away any of the fly iconography.

 

TL;DR make him mirror Voldus' pose, replace rotting guts with a plate, shave/cut away Nurgle iconography and bob's your uncle.


Well would you look at the time, it's zombie o'clock!
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