Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

How many companies and in what format?

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#26
SickSix

SickSix

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,996 posts
  • Location:Tallahassee, FL
  • Faction: Silver Skulls
Good points. But there are 'unofficial' successors. We know there had to successors becuase the Dragon Warriors. I think the Black Dragons and a couple other named chapters have been called succesors by the AT but the Salamanders themselves just refuse to acknowledge it.

In the continous war of grinding attrition that is the 40k universe its not hard to imagine that the Salamanders never grew past roughly a chapter. They don't back down. So they would probably suffer more total wipes of forces than many other chapters. Kinda like the IF have suffered due to stubborness.

Now with Primaris, they could have nearly doubled in size. I haven't read Dark Imperium and still debating whether I even want to. But it sounds like there were a crapton of these Marines 2.0 in stasis.

Anyone have an estimate?

#27
Aothaine

Aothaine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,930 posts
  • Faction: Flesh Tearers

Good points. But there are 'unofficial' successors. We know there had to successors becuase the Dragon Warriors. I think the Black Dragons and a couple other named chapters have been called succesors by the AT but the Salamanders themselves just refuse to acknowledge it.

In the continous war of grinding attrition that is the 40k universe its not hard to imagine that the Salamanders never grew past roughly a chapter. They don't back down. So they would probably suffer more total wipes of forces than many other chapters. Kinda like the IF have suffered due to stubborness.

Now with Primaris, they could have nearly doubled in size. I haven't read Dark Imperium and still debating whether I even want to. But it sounds like there were a crapton of these Marines 2.0 in stasis.

Anyone have an estimate?

 

I know that at the end of Devastation of Baal there were at least 2,000 primaris for every most successor chapters. Possibly more for the Blood Angels.

 

I have not read Dark Imperium yet though. So I'm not sure about the other chapters.


Edited by Aothaine, 23 February 2018 - 09:18 PM.

"Death before Dishonor! No Mercy!" - Captain Donatello of the Roaring Lions!

gallery_62972_14467_40478.png


#28
Xisor

Xisor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 933 posts
Bear in mind, I think it's implied that Indomitus/Imperium Nihilus/Dark Imperium has hugely added to their turnover. So you might get 2000 new ones straight out of stasis, but after a couple of weeks the parade of disasters and near-apocalypses will mean you're down to 300 Primaris, but with much quicker creation/killing.

-----

Anyway, I've been thinking on this again. I'm broadly happy with two possible solutions to the puzzle.

One: we retcon the full implications of the '7 Companies for 7 Cities' idea - there are indeed 7 full companies - one each in a big ol' city, plus the Firedrakes living on the moon, plus an indeterminate number of Scouts scurrying about the place.

The most senior beggar in the Firedrakes, the 'Captain' (though, as it's not really a Company, I'd be happy with them being the 'Command Squad Sergeant') is the de-facto Chapter Master - standing in for Vulkan's job of being the face of the Legion where the Imperium is concerned, e.g. Pen-Pusher Tu'shan. From Prometheus they take responsibility for 'liaising' between the Captains and the external Imperium. They also sometimes deign to 'lead' the Firedrakes, though they don't really need a whole lot of leading (in principle).

That leaves space for the Captain of the Scout Company, or as I'd like to think of them... the Planetary Governor of Nocturne. They take general responsibility for Nocturne, but really their main responsibilities are picking out/finding new Scout Sergeants from returning veterans, and coordinating the civil defence/order of Nocturne. Think basically the role that Guilliman allowed for in his 'drastic' reorganising of things on Macragge in Dark Imperium

Alternatively...

Two

We retroactively fit a reason for why none of the numbers really line up properly - they were all 'mistakes' unwittingly recorded by the exterior Imperium.

The 1st Firedrakes/3* Battle Companies/2* Reserve Companies/1* Scout Company with the specific 12-squads/6-squads listing we're familiar with was purely coincidental to when it was first recorded.

E.g. there was some bloke on Prometheus command some Terminators and talking as if he were the Chapter Master (but refusing to be called as such), who was in contact with three Captains who were pursuing independent campaigns, two Captains who were actively supporting entire Crusade battlefronts across multiple sectors, and a seventh Captain-ish person overseeing activity on Nocturne itself, principally keeping tabs on the Scouts, neophytes and apprentices, not to mention the entire populace of the planet, the spaceships and the incoming/outgoing populations.

And those Captains out on campaign? The last one to leave had had 12 proper squads, so whoever compiled all that just assumed it was 'a thing' and ran with it...

Which is to say: a Salamanders 'company' might be founded if you can find a Captain-ish type leader, a spare apothecary, a spare librarian, a spare chaplain, and a pile of non-Scout non-Firedrake Marines for them to lead. Everything else is... details.

This second option also plays well into what I mentioned the previous page - the old 'suicidal tendencies', and perhaps adding in the idea that Salamanders companies get formed (Captain+staff+X Marines), sent off with a pile of arms and armour, and likely never heard from again (e.g. they keep fighting and winning until they're whittled down). If they make it back to Nocturne - hooray, but the folks back home will manage okay if they don't come back.

As far as the Salamanders are concerned, they only need Space Marines to come back for:
- Scout veteran sergeants
- Firedrakes
- Household specialists (Chaplains/Librarians/new-Captains)

That means that at any given point, the Salamanders could have any number of companies 'out there' - but they'd never really know.

Now, that also has troubling contradictions, e.g. Armageddon3 - 'the whole Chapter was there!'.

But was it? Under this new scheme of mine, that might have simply been the most Salamanders that had been seen at one time - perhaps giving rise to all this confusion.

There was the senior person from the Firedrakes (Tu'shan) who had been new to being the most senior during Armageddon2, and who showed honour to Dante, and who Dante and other Imperials were glad to see - who happened to show up with six other Captains (one of whom was leading some Scouts, five of whom were leading slightly strange but not unrecognisable [not Space Wolfy or Black Templary] companies). But since they also seemed to be roughly in the right numbers for a slightly hurt Chapter (700-800 Marines), everyone assumed that was the whole kit and caboodle - nobody amongst the Salamanders spokes if they could 'go and have a look for some more Marines' to help out.

Ergo Armageddon3 was the 'full Chapter' and now the legends of bizarre companies as we know them were born.

----

I suppose, for me, it comes down to whether I like "well organised, structured" (which I do, so I vaguely prefer option ONE), or whether I like "vague, not easily codified, never really explained, often contradictory" (which I don't, but now that I've thought about it at length, I find strangely alluring - so option TWO), but I think both provide plenty of scope for getting one's teeth into.

Under Option ONE, we'd need some new colours for the First and Seventh Companies. (First, IMHO, should be Black Salamander on Yellow Background, nice and striking. Seventh, I was thinking, was a Yellow Salamander on a Black Background, but there's other colours to play with - takes the Salamanders back to their 'root scheme' of mottled yellow/black, but confines it to the shoulder pad.) That'd mean Firedrakes and Scouts could still have their colours, but you'd also have a complete set of 7 Companies.

Under Option TWO, however, it means you could really go to town with the colour schemes and heraldry for the company. Any number of variations on the Salamanders 'crest', sort of Space Wolf style, but with a bit more constancy in the specific Chapter Emblem.

And the more time you've spent away from Nocturne without suffering horrendous losses [and find the Scouts that came with you have fully matured, and that your Apothecary is keen to make more!]? The more chance you have of simply divorcing ties from Nocturne and, in true Salamanders style, going it alone.

It's not the official, coordinated founding of a new Chapter, it's 120 Marines + 30 Scouts, over time, becoming 130 Marines + 0 Scouts, then 140 Marines and 40 Scouts,... and the Techmarine found a good planet to acquire resources, and the Chaplain was alright with it, and the Librarian didn't see any issue with 'going home'.

So under that regime, the 'away from home' companies might never be 'Salamanders Successors' - they might just have gone far enough away, for long enough, and have adapted to new circumstances and re-supply options to finish 'just one more mission'... and been good at it!

They weren't Successor Chapters, they weren't officially divorced from the progenitor Chapter because, as far as the progenitor Chapter cared, they weren't keeping tabs.

The galaxy is a big place, after all, and the Salamanders put a lot of emphasis on 'doing things on their own'.

The more I think of it, the more I am fond of Option TWO.

Salamanders, so good at providing overwhelming abundance in starting skills/materiel, and in such well defended, valuable and valued (by the Imperium/Mechanicus/Terra) planet, they don't need to keep tabs on all their Marines, but Sufficiently inclined to 'bite off more than they can chew' that they aren't seen to be spawning Successors like the Black Templars are spawning Crusades, but at the same time quite lackadaisical about 'going home'. Self-reliant, so they rarely need to go home.

So the 'five' (seven) companies at Armageddon3 was just a 'big force' of 'repeatedly seen together' Salamanders.

At other times in the Imperium's history, you (as a senior Imperial figure) might rarely have seen the same force of Salamanders twice...

Edited by Xisor, 12 September 2018 - 09:15 PM.


#29
Lord_Caerolion

Lord_Caerolion

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,822 posts
  • Faction: Lamenters

I'm a fan of option 1, it kinda seems that's what GW wants, they just can't ever get it quite right in how they phrase it and show the diagrams.

 

EDIT: I mean, I want to keep the Salamanders closer to the Codex model, if possible, as they've never particularly been singled-out as a Chapter that rejected it, with Vulkans only real objections to the Codex Astartes being that he didn't want to split his Legion. The Iron Hands are a more divergent extreme, I like the idea of the Salamanders being kind of a half-way point between the Codex guidelines, and the Iron Hands with the "screw you, we're calling them Companies but that's all you're getting" method of following the Codex.

 

As for the Salamanders founding "Successors" by slowly becoming more and more independent until they cut ties from Nocturne completely, I can't really see that happening. The Salamanders have never really been independent in that regard. They pride themselves in self-sufficiency, sure, but their Chapter culture also prizes highly their ties to the mortal populations of Nocturne. I can't see them deciding to abandon all that.

 

Actually, scratch that. I could see it happening, but rather than being a gradual thing, I could see it being the result of the Salamanders really digging in to defend an Imperial world, bonding with the native population, and deciding "we live here now".


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 13 September 2018 - 06:18 AM.

  • Xisor and Aothaine like this

"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#30
Aothaine

Aothaine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,930 posts
  • Faction: Flesh Tearers

I'm still a firm believer that the Salamanders are the last remaining legion. I like option 2 and that entire battle companies will be out and about all the time and new battle companies are made thinking the old ones are dead as they have not returned for a long time. But I would think it would have to be about the high casualty rates of Salamanders as they will gladly lay down their lives for the citizens of the Imperium to escape a disaster. 

 

I like the Salamaders. A lot. But man there is just not enough info out there about them to love them. Other chapters just get way more attention. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, etc. It possibly has to do with the Salamanders not really having controversy in their ranks. They are the perfect warriors that are righteous and self sacrificing. It makes for boring stories. And they don't get to build on characters as interesting to read about like Mephiston, a librarian fighting off the black rage while making a deal with a greater daemon to save himself and become a hero that uses the "darkside" of the warp to support his chapter. 


  • Xisor likes this

"Death before Dishonor! No Mercy!" - Captain Donatello of the Roaring Lions!

gallery_62972_14467_40478.png


#31
Lord_Caerolion

Lord_Caerolion

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,822 posts
  • Faction: Lamenters

The only issue is that we don't really have anything to support that notion. The Salamanders have always been said to have accepted the Codex Astartes, on the condition that Guilliman allowed Vulkan to not split his already devastated Legion into Chapters. Looking at what happened to the Salamanders during the Heresy, it does certainly seem that they came out with ~1000 Astartes, given they weren't able to escape from Istvaan (Vulkan being the only survivor), with only a skeleton crew holding Nocturne. If anything, they've always been described as somewhat under strength compared to other Chapters.


  • Aothaine likes this

"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#32
SickSix

SickSix

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,996 posts
  • Location:Tallahassee, FL
  • Faction: Silver Skulls

I'm still a firm believer that the Salamanders are the last remaining legion. I like option 2 and that entire battle companies will be out and about all the time and new battle companies are made thinking the old ones are dead as they have not returned for a long time. But I would think it would have to be about the high casualty rates of Salamanders as they will gladly lay down their lives for the citizens of the Imperium to escape a disaster.

I like the Salamaders. A lot. But man there is just not enough info out there about them to love them. Other chapters just get way more attention. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, etc. It possibly has to do with the Salamanders not really having controversy in their ranks. They are the perfect warriors that are righteous and self sacrificing. It makes for boring stories. And they don't get to build on characters as interesting to read about like Mephiston, a librarian fighting off the black rage while making a deal with a greater daemon to save himself and become a hero that uses the "darkside" of the warp to support his chapter.


1. I like the idea of lost companies as well. It would be cool if when Vulcan returns all these lost units show up at Nocturne and suddenly there are several thousand Slamanders ready to STOMP STOMP VULCAN LIVES!

2. If you don't think Salamanders are interesting read their BL trilogy. I personally think Nick Kyme has done a great job with them.
  • Xisor likes this

#33
Xisor

Xisor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 933 posts
For my part, I think I bounce between 1 & 2 each time I think about them.

And to some extent, we don't know the exact process by which a force goes from 'haven't heard from them in a while!' to 'missing, presumed in terrible trouble' to 'missing, presumed dead, I guess we'd best make new ones'.

I imagine it arises 'naturally' any time there's a surfeit of recruits with not enough spaces to fill.

That would tie into #1 nicely - seven companies of one hundred and twenty men in squads, plus supernumerary folk (tank specialists and whatnot), any time you've got relatively full whole companies in good contact, but a demi company or two entirely missing for decades on end, then it is a trivial matter to replace them.

If they eventually turn up after a few hundred years and still are surplus to the 7*120, thrn suddenly there's your mechanism for a new Chapter without being part of an official Founding - e.g. it happens so rarely, and perhaps the Salamanders are 'low key'/relaxed enough about sending them off into he wild green yonder that that's why it doesn't get talked about much. It's not... 'celebrated' in a big fancy way, but more stoically seen as proudful and sad for the folks doing it, but nevertheless bearing a solemn burden and taking one for the team by forsaking their heritage and going elsewhere.

That would work, I suppose.

And if you tweaked the focus/tolerances, you could allow for it to happen often (but it doesn't get spoken about as it's just getting on with business and has a tinge of sadness in leaving Nocturne 'forever'), or even just being a thing that happens all the time for lots of Chapters - everyone has half-a-dozen spare companies being reabsorbed every few centuries; that's just warp travel and terrible communications!

But it seems particularly suitable for Salamanders, and I do like the idea of it bridging the gap between 'Codex with some idiosyncrasies' and 'sort of still a Legion' (though as a Legion they were all too eager to shoot off on hopelessly suicidal errands, so them not splitting isn't exactly the same level of issue as, say, the Ultramarines remaining Legion).

It would tally nicely with the Primaris factor too. Suddenly almost all apprentices are guaranteed to be *viable* as Space Marines, it is just a matter of decent education - which the Salamanders seem to be decent at.

And therein's an issue: suddenly the Salamanders can generate Marines faster than they can burn through them.

Does that change matters? Especially now that Guilliman isn't as keen on the 'stay a Chapter' plan as he was previously.

Maybe that catapults off in a bizarre direction - the Salamanders stick to one Chapter of seven times twelve line Marines, but they start promulgation the Promethean Creed far and wide. Suddenly you've got mighty enduring, willing to dig in and do the hard work Chapters of Salamanders popping up all over the place.

Less firedrakes.

More fireshrooms.

(I genuinely am fond of that though. They just start 'cloning' their organisational structure and reapplying it to all sorts of Deathworlds all over both halves of the Imperium...)

If a twenty-year cycle comes around for them where they haven't had par-for-the-new-course casualties, they have a horde of tough as nail Primaris on hand. Very ecological. Need more predators! :D

#34
Slan Drakkos

Slan Drakkos

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 324 posts
  • Location:Fulgrim's palace
  • Faction: III and XVIII Legions

The only issue is that we don't really have anything to support that notion. The Salamanders have always been said to have accepted the Codex Astartes, on the condition that Guilliman allowed Vulkan to not split his already devastated Legion into Chapters. Looking at what happened to the Salamanders during the Heresy, it does certainly seem that they came out with ~1000 Astartes, given they weren't able to escape from Istvaan (Vulkan being the only survivor), with only a skeleton crew holding Nocturne. If anything, they've always been described as somewhat under strength compared to other Chapters.

They accept the codex out of respect for Rawbutt. They are not beholden to it though. If they wanted to build themselves back up to their old pre-heresy size, nothing's stopping them. The space marine codex clearly states that they're the only first founding chapter that is still exempt from the standard limit on how big a chapter can be.

TL;DR: They're still a legion.

#35
Captain Smashy Pants

Captain Smashy Pants

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 528 posts
  • Location:Perth, Australia
I’m curious about the recruitment and training process, the initial batch were vat grown by Cawl on Mars, but would newer Primaris undergo the same regime as traditional Salamanders marines. IIRC recruits start their training much earlier than other chapters, learning the ways of the black smith and living amongst the population of Nocturne, building up a bond with its people. And all of this starts long before the implantation process begins. It would make a cool theme for a Novella or short story.

Edited by Captain Smashy Pants, 13 October 2018 - 08:51 AM.

  • Xisor likes this
gallery_62972_14467_3390.jpggallery_62972_14467_13489.jpggallery_62972_14467_3390.jpg

I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#36
Lord_Caerolion

Lord_Caerolion

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,822 posts
  • Faction: Lamenters

 

The only issue is that we don't really have anything to support that notion. The Salamanders have always been said to have accepted the Codex Astartes, on the condition that Guilliman allowed Vulkan to not split his already devastated Legion into Chapters. Looking at what happened to the Salamanders during the Heresy, it does certainly seem that they came out with ~1000 Astartes, given they weren't able to escape from Istvaan (Vulkan being the only survivor), with only a skeleton crew holding Nocturne. If anything, they've always been described as somewhat under strength compared to other Chapters.

They accept the codex out of respect for Rawbutt. They are not beholden to it though. If they wanted to build themselves back up to their old pre-heresy size, nothing's stopping them. The space marine codex clearly states that they're the only first founding chapter that is still exempt from the standard limit on how big a chapter can be.

TL;DR: They're still a legion.

 

 

Actually, it doesn't say that. It just says that they were exempt from being divided into Chapters, and is heavily implied that this was because there was less than 1000 remaining anyway. It says nothing whatsoever that they are exempt from how large a Chapter can be.

With the Salamanders exempt from dividing their numbers, Vulkan's initial misgivings about the Codex Astartes were quashed, and to this day the Salamanders are largely compliant with its dictates.

 

It then goes on to state that they differ by having the different Company organization. No mention is given to exemptions on size, unless you really stretch the interpretation of "didn't have to split up". They would still be following the dictate on "no more than 1000 Astartes".


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users