Andhil Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Hail Commanders (and Commisars), As I've probably mentioned a couple of times before, I have a bit of a Vendetta agains the accursed Daemons that plague this galaxy. While I used to have a pretty good track record against them, lately, since 7th and Unbound came along, we've been taking some serious hits from the Unclean wretches. Here's the general situation. We play at 3000pts, because we like fielding a lot of models, big games are our thing, we only play smaller games when we're pressed for time. I play a mixed Bound list, with several flyers, tanks and a sizable Infantry presence, I could post details of my List and collection if needed. My opponent on the other hand has happily accepted the blessings that 7th ed. has bestowed upon Daemons, using an Unbound list with a large amount of FMC's (4-6 iirc) a bunch of Elites (Crushers, Slaaneshi Cavalry, Flamers, Screamers and Drones) a pair of Soul Grinders, a Skull Cannon and a unit or two of Pink Horrors for Summoning purposes. We also play Maelstrom missions, because they're fun, our only House-ruled bit is that we automatically re-roll (the actual cards aren't in yet, we ordered some ) cards we can't ever complete (Think of him getting kill a Psyker when I never field one, and I get Generate a Psychic power in the same situation!) Sadly, I can't seem to beat his army, with any of my 3 armies. It's a mix of things really, here's the key problems: -The FMC's. Too many for my already AT-heavy list, it's almost impossible to correctly prioritize your AT-fire when you need to choose between 2 Bloodthirsters, 3-4 Daemon Princes , 2 Soul Grinders and a Skullcannon. Them all having an Invul doesn't help. He also sprinkles the FMC's with as many Rewards as possible, which means they often either re-roll saves, regen wounds, or even both, Oh, and the occasional FnP doesn't hurt either! -The incessant Summoning. While it's not out of hand (generally summoning 3, maybe 4 Units per game, it's still a lot of free units to get) -His speed. Between the FMC's and his Cavalry, he'll never give me more than a single turn to shoot. Now, I'm not new to this, but the general toughness of the units he uses (invuls + multi-wound models= pain.) means I'll never block the needed units, which gives him time to deploy his freshly summoned troops. -I can't get Fortifications as I need to keep my mobility as high as possible, due to playing Maelstrom missions. I've thought about getting more Chimera's, but that's not financially possible now, I've got one, and it'll remain the faithful steed of my CCS. Now, I've got a couple of things lined up for a test game: -Scions Stormtroopers, backed up by my second CCS. Re-rolling To Wounds with a full complement of Hot Shots and Volleyguns should do the trick (my test-rolling promised exciting results) -A full Plasma Executioner. 5 Plasma Blasts for when he lands. A Techpriest stationed nearby (I always field 2, I love my Armour, and PotMS never hurt anyone!) should keep it's HP losses to a minimum (as in, he repairs as many as possible. Sadly, a Triple HP loss is always possible, and almost guaranteed to occur. Best keep my Imperial Primer handy and apply the needed Litanies!) That about sums up the situation, problem and possible solutions. Any ideas or suggestions, Comrades? Glory to the Emperor! Andhil, Commander of the Golgothan 7th Legion Imperial Guard. ++Thought for the day: "Carry the Emperor's Will as your Torch, with it, Destroy the Shadows."++ EDIT: I also realize that most of my problems would be solved by either: A) Discussing the ridiculousness of Unbound at 3K pts. (which it is, by the way, Summoning just turns the power level of the list up to 11, for that extra push over the cliff.) or B) running Unbound myself. I don't want to do any of these. A): I don't want to force him in any way to quit playing the list he likes, we've been friends a long time, so that's against my principles. Also, I feel like, in this post, I come across like a bitter gamer, who is raging over defeat, but I'd rather lose to my buddy than win and lose that friendship. It'd just be fun to actually feel like I put up a decent fight, which isn't what's happening atm. B): I somehow always end up with a Bound Army anyway, I love my Guardsmen and Veterans, but I also lack a lot of models needed to decently play Unbound. I'm left with having to ask the best Treadheads and Footsloggers for help. Be it advising effective units or simply helping me devise strategy. So there we go. (Also, feel free to use this as a general VS. Daemons thread, to discuss Tactics and such.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Inquisition allies, inquisitors with servo skulls stop him scouting up to your lines. Target priority, if his fmc are swooping ignore them, they have to spend a turn changing to glide mode before they can charge. If his summoning is wrecking face target his warp charge batteries with your wyverns et al. Bubble wrap so he can only get to one relatively weak layer ( conscripts) when charging, giving you another turn to shoot. Also, talk to him about how you feel, TBH imho at 3k there's no need for unbound, with multiple cads theres no need imho, it just encourages spam of the best units. If he is a good friend he will likely be as mortified you aren't enjoying it as you are concerned to not upset him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I agree, you're basically taking a 40k list against an Apoc one more or less so it's no wonder you're struggling. If I remember right, Daemons are chiefly lower invulnerable saves with the exception of MCs and character types? Spam fire would be the order of the day along with plenty of units to absorb hits. You'd definitely need to do something to tackle the FMCs but you're starting to get into the heavy tailoring with that which is clunky and counter productive I feel. So if you're really set on your restrictions then you're going to have to put up with the handicap, but I'm also in agreement that you talk to your friend about it. I'm sure he doesn't want to play games where only one person is really enjoying himself, and will likely not be happy that you're handicapping yourself just to be nice. That aside I have some very bad news for you if you think that a friendship is built on winning or losing games..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 How about multiple hydras,anti air manticores,sabre platforms. At 3k points there's plenty of space for fortifications too. Field coteaz and multiple 2henchmen+psycher squads,they will give you a cheap and expandable psychic dominance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakasus Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Cyclonic Missles from orbit, its the only way to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Men and more men. Multiple full conscript blobs with priests attached for massed lasgun volleys into his men. Accuracy doesn't matter, massed fire does (especially against flyers that need 6s anyway.) He'll tear them apart...eventually but that will be only 400-600 points of your army and he'll have never closed with the important stuff now. Combine with servo-skulls for another turn of massed fire action. Of course, you might not own that many men... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Scions taken from Codex: Militarum Tempestus with their rending and sniper orders may help against all that high toughness stuff. And what about a whole mess of snipers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 It's hopeless. There are 5-6 hardcore tournament players at my shop, and none of us can beat daemons with our standard tournament lists. flying nurgle princes with their 2+ jink, a bonus 150 points worth of models every turn, fateweaver buzzing around dropping that 150 points PRECISELY where it's needed every single turn...it's ridiculous. I'm the only one who's even forced a draw against that cheese, and it was total luck. I fielded a shadowsword on a lark, and it blew up on turn five, killing the enemy relic bearer, whereupon the game ended, preventing him from picking it back up. Our local daemon cheese-monger has not lost a seventh edition game and has only drawn twice...and the other draw was against a visiting daemon cheese player (this one running a blob of those slobbering nugrle beasts that lick you to death and a blob of crushers, which he was buffing to the nines with fateweaver while still dropping a fresh unit of daemons every turn. So fateweaver on fateweaver...) /edit/ If you name any given element of daemon cheese, sure there's a counter....three vendettas make a very dead fateweaver, although it takes till the end of the game, since he'll surely have a 2+ invul against those nine lascannons. Add a perfect timing caster to a lascannon devastator squad, and you'll destroy those jinking nurgle princes...and so on...the problem is that none of these "solutions" are common in all-comers tournament lists, they're expensive, and each only addresses one possible permutation of daemon cheese. The closest thing to anything universal is GK allies. Strike squad will do a decent job of handling some big nasty demons, since it only takes one wound from a force weapon to do the deed, although you need enough bodies to survive the demon striking at a higher initiative. GK librarian rocks santic powers that are tailored against daemons, so he helps a lot, and now you can give him a relic to make him even better against daemons (although it's a waste of 25 points if you face any other army). I might try again when I have my GK contingent of one libby (ML3) and 5 strikes (down from like 420 to 260 points!) ready to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 March tell us how those GK do ... I may dust off my old GK who I haven't used since before the Ward 'dex to bring as anti-daemon insurance if/when I attend a tournament that's not Astronomi-con (the Astro I attended last month didn't have anything remotely resembling cheese). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I will...it seems very solid in theory. ML3 who can choose between santic (only when facing daemons!) and divination (along with a few other crummy lores), plus a nice counter-assault unit, for 260 points? I don't see any downsides... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Fateweaver can't pick from malefic, he has fixed psychic powers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I will...it seems very solid in theory. ML3 who can choose between santic (only when facing daemons!) and divination (along with a few other crummy lores), plus a nice counter-assault unit, for 260 points? I don't see any downsides... Do GK Librarians have access to telepathy? Psychic Scream isn't half bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andhil Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 Thank you all for the responses, I really appreciate it. The personal problems will work out just fine, of this, I am convinced. So now to turn my attention to the battlefield. Perhaps I should attempt to solve one problem at a time. The FMC's remain a problem. There's just too many. So, I require effective units (preferably from C:AM) to hunt these Monsters. I'm currently employing the following: -Various Heavy Weapons Squads -A Vendetta -Melta Veterans, with Demo doctrine and I'm planning to use -Scions, with Volleyguns, specifically to limit the chance of potential Get's Hot! casualties, and the Volleygun's Str4 will also improve it's effectiveness against the Daemon Princes he often fields. -A Full Plasma Executioner. For when they land. A gamble, but tough times.... -I'm also considering going for Sentinels with Lascannons (there's some Vehicles sprinkled about as well, Ap2 never hurt anyone!). Any other good options I might have missed? I'm specifically looking for units who can deal enough wounds to these creatures, as they often have extra Wounds, FnP or Re-rolls for saves. (NOTE: Personally, I don't look for Psychic power stuff as it doesn't fit my Army background, but feel free to mention them anyway, other, less scrupulous commanders might agree to the use of Psykers and welcome such advice! The Daemon Threat must be halted at any cost! ) EDIT: I don't quite know why I have the need to explain this but I felt like my previous posts make it seem like that, but I'm not doing this to tailor a list to finally beat my friend. I simply need a second opinion if you will, to see if there are options I have missed, to improve the quality of my army as a whole. I have my play style, and I enjoy it thoroughly, so I'm not going to discard that to play a Tournament winning Anti-Daemon list. There's other places I could have gone to for this. Which is also why I hope that we can have various strategy and tactics threads to discuss a certain threat to the Imperium, to aid each other in our struggles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Most likely he's fielding a number of psykers so consider a Culexus assassin to help even that field out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Weight of fire in all things, so a couple of Executioners to plasma barrage FMCs to death isn't a bad idea. He'd probably go straight for them too so you could use that to your advantage. He's coming right for you so put everything you have into putting shots out, you could also use some sneaky tricks too and outflank some Sentinels in for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomericus Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I might suggest taking two vengeance weapons batteries with punisher cannons,you can place them where you like,will not slow you down and can pump out 40 shots a turn for you into those foul demonic scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RADU LYKAN Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Most likely he's fielding a number of psykers so consider a Culexus assassin to help even that field out.also think an assassin might help, if only it was I8 or 9 it might really be able to take out most of your fmc problems, only being hit on 5+ in combat still gives him a chance i suppose how does the animus speculum work with relation to psychic brotherhoods? does a full psyker battle squad give 10 shots or just 1? might be worth looking in to? 10 s5 ap1 shots at bs 10 if the fmc is a psyker sounds like toasty daemon prince to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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