Azrael, Beliel and Sammael in 7th

[JJD]

Although a Dark Angels 7th ed codex seems likely to be a long way off this thread got me thinking.

 

Azreal, Beliel and Sammel all come with a points tax and that tax is payed to unlock either DW, RW or both as troops. If we follow the trend seen in each of the 7th ed codex's so far this ability will be removed. I would speculate that it will likely be replaced with a formation similar to the Grey knights.

 

My question here is if that ability is removed would you still play these characters for the other force multiplying powers they already posses or would you need to see changes to keep them viable.

 

I realised this is all up in the air speculation but I am bored and just looking for discussion.

[Larhendiel]

For me, if they loose their Deathwing, Ravenwing or D+R formation abilities and retain their gear with cost I wouldn't even bother to look in their direction, even nowadays Sammy suffers for me, I would love him to have one more wound or a 2+ Sv with S5 sword. Belial needs his weapon to be AP2 if he is going to be as dear as he is now, Azrael... never fielded him, he makes Deathwing troops but can't deep strike, makes Ravenwing troops but can't take a bike. For me its a wasted character, footslogging for such pricey model isn't option, and even fielding him in a Land Raider, raising his cost with transport to a QUARTER of a 2k army won't deter shots coming his direction.

[GrandMasterAralia]

I totally agree Brother Larhendiel! While they all three have some useful special rules, I think I would much rather have the ability to field a generic HQ and still retain the troop choices granted by A, B and S in some detachement style atmy. I think it's a shame that we are forced to use a special character if we want to use the more iconic army types of the Unforgiven exclusively.

[notmattlythgoe]

I've been giving Azzy in a LRC a try with the bolter banner and a few RW squads. His ability to pick the reserve altering Warlord Trait ang his Rites of Battle are pretty nice, even if he is riding around in a LR. And if he has the chance to pop out and beat on some people he is pretty brutal. And he gives the command squad a 4++.

[Grand Master Belial]

The DA never really had any strong Characters. Their strength has always been in their units. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like them to be buffed up a bit.

 

I would love Azrael to be a close combat monster and have his combi-weapon have select fire in every turn instead of just once per battle.

 

Belial needs some beefing up to be the ideal of a Deathwing Terminator. Up his WS and BS and make his sword utterly lethal to all but those with invulnerable saves.

 

I agree with the above with Sammael but would add that his other rides need to updated as well. Does anyone use his Speeder variant and what about a standard bike variant (black knight style) so he could join units.

 

But I wouldn't stop there, Ezekiel needs help too. I would love him to be a bubble of fear on the battle field. Anyone inside of 12" would feel his effects even if they aren't targeting him. Having it always on without rolling would allow for the lower Mastery Level but it would not stop him from using another power in a turn as normal.

[Master Avoghai]

If we follow the trend seen in each of the 7th ed codex's so far this ability will be removed. I would speculate that it will likely be replaced with a formation similar to the Grey knights.

I still fail to see where this comes from...

Eldar dex still transforms WG into troops if they are 10/squad

Mawlock still become troops if you have enough gaunts

Bikes are still troops if you have the captain/chapter master on bike...

 

So PLEASE explain me WHY our special characters would lose something that makes our army unique...

[plasmaspam]

 

If we follow the trend seen in each of the 7th ed codex's so far this ability will be removed. I would speculate that it will likely be replaced with a formation similar to the Grey knights.

I still fail to see where this comes from...Eldar dex still transforms WG into troops if they are 10/squadMawlock still become troops if you have enough gauntsBikes are still troops if you have the captain/chapter master on bike...So PLEASE explain me WHY our special characters would lose something that makes our army unique...

Further to what Avoghai says, I'd be very concerned at the implication of the things that arguably result in us having a separate codex become supplement or data slate formations.

 

I'd be very disappointed in losing the choice to field a varied DW or RW force, instead being forced into a standardised formation as prescribed by a design studio team who have a sales target for most likely undesirable models.

 

Additionally, if DW/RW became "formations", then likely we would be absorbed into C:SM, as there would be little to justify a standalone C:DA.

[durdle-durdle]

 

If we follow the trend seen in each of the 7th ed codex's so far this ability will be removed. I would speculate that it will likely be replaced with a formation similar to the Grey knights.

I still fail to see where this comes from...

Eldar dex still transforms WG into troops if they are 10/squad

Mawlock still become troops if you have enough gaunts

Bikes are still troops if you have the captain/chapter master on bike...

 

So PLEASE explain me WHY our special characters would lose something that makes our army unique...

 

Those aren't 7th edition codices.  The only 7th edition codices so far are space wolves and orks, both of which no longer have FOC shifting abilities.

 

 

My hope isn't formations, I'm hoping for new FOC charts.  For instance, orks have one which allows three extra troop slots and an extra HQ + squads of over 10 charging over 10" get hammer of wrath + a reroll on the orks warlord traits.  Similarly, DA could have two, one for deathwing (which gives extra elite slots, and some ability) and one for ravenwing (which gives extra FA slots and some ability).  And if you field belial/ sammael, the attatched squad (or a bubble) would get some buff from them being on the field.

 

unfortunately, as plasmaspam says, it'll likely be a formation bent on selling undesirable models.

[JJD]

 

If we follow the trend seen in each of the 7th ed codex's so far this ability will be removed. I would speculate that it will likely be replaced with a formation similar to the Grey knights.

I still fail to see where this comes from...

Eldar dex still transforms WG into troops if they are 10/squad

Mawlock still become troops if you have enough gaunts

Bikes are still troops if you have the captain/chapter master on bike...

So PLEASE explain me WHY our special characters would lose something that makes our army unique...

As I explained in the opening post this is nothing more than speculation it is based on the trend set by the 7th ed codexs that have been released to this point those being Orks, Space wolves and Grey Knights all of which have had the force org altering abilities removed.

 

Orks war boss on a bike no longer take bikes as troops and space wolves no longer take termies as troops. I have not seen the grey knight codex yet but I understand that the similar ability has been removed from drago too.

 

My speculation is that this trend will continue when older 5th and 6th ed codex's are updated to 7th.

[Master Avoghai]

Those aren't 7th edition codices. The only 7th edition codices so far are space wolves and orks, both of which no longer have FOC shifting abilities.

 

To me, there are 2 errors in this this analysis.

 

First is to base a reasoning on just 2 codex. Basing a generality on 2 observations is often a source of deception because this cannot be representative of 16-18 codex... (Please note by the way that it would also mean, if it's true, that GW would keep a said orientation during more than 2 years, which is as likely as seeing Kirby telling that GW made a bad year... :lol: )

 

The second error is not seeing which codex and which units were involved in the orks and SW codex.

 

We are talking about orks nobz on bikes, Wolf Guards and thunderwolves counting as troops.

 

Ork nobz are not representative of any klan's specificity. Speed freaks basic troops are normal bikes and orks in truks. And those are already troops. There's no reason to put nobz as troops. Like I see no reason to put DW knights as troops as well.

 

Same thing for the Wolf guards or the thunderwolves. The core of each great company are bloodclaws and grey hunters. They don't have an entire company of terminators or thunderwolves fighting sometimes as a whole. Each great company has pack of vets and thunderwolves, sometimes more than the other, but not to justify to use them as basic troops.

 

 

But for us it's different. Playing DW or RW as an army has always been possible through 3 codex. It's part of the identity of the army and what makes people chooses the DA over other chapters (with the fluff of course). Remove that and you'll lose a large part of the personality and the originality of the chapter.

I can imagine that Azrael will no longer make DW AND RW as troops as it's too much of an advantage and breaks game balance in V7 and its "objective secured units".

But removing Sammael and Belial's unlocking capacity would represent a risk that I'm not sure GW would take without good reasons.

 

And actually I hardly see the next codex release bringing us an answer... The only one would be if the Chaos codex suffer a (necessary) revamp and we'll see what happen to TS, DG, WE and EC squads... But we're far from that...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

We've had terminators and bikes as troops for many, many years now. That was the hallmark of all our codices. The others only had that trend for one codex and it's no surprise it's going away. I'm very condident we will still have the same organization a few years from now when new codex comes.

 

Anyway, I would still play those characters even if they didn't change FOC. They are still a good bang for the buck:

Belial has no scatter DS and nice wargear.

Sammael is a good Character on bike

Azrael gives Ld10 and 4+ inv and can choose warlord trait.

[Xwingt65]

The foc changing is in the past. For DA i foresee it being changed for a DW and a RW detachment with less troops and more elites (DW) and fa (RW). Add in a detachment special rule, like deepstriking in turn 1 and some sort of movement/stealth buff.

 

As for the characters themselves i dont think much will change.

[Master Avoghai]

The foc changing is in the past.

You throw it into the chat like the ultimate truth.

 

I find it a little bit disrespectful in regard to the arguments I try to bring in the balance. It really sounds like "I don't care what you say, I DO KNOW the truth"... <_<

 

2 codex with unjustified FOC changes that have been removed do not allow us to determin a generality in game design for the future... Particularly when knowing that GW never followed a game design orientation more than 2 years...

 

I want clear facts like a chaos codex without any marks unlocking cult marines units or an interview of a game designer during warhammer fest declaring they want to get rid of this system.

[notmattlythgoe]

If GW has decided that they want to get rid of FOC changing, there is always the possibility that they just throw the termies and bikes into the troop slot in the codex.

[BigGumbo]

I agree with the above with Sammael but would add that his other rides need to updated as well. Does anyone use his Speeder variant and what about a standard bike variant (black knight style) so he could join units.

Unless I've missed something in the 7th Ed rulebook, there's nothing to stop him joining units now that's he's an Independent Character.

[JJD]

Both Chaplin Lucifer and master Avoghai have made valid points and It was not my intention to say that GW will definately remove all foc changing abilities from all future codexs this thread was intended as a what if question?

 

With that what if in mind I find it pretty unlikely that the ability to field DW and RW armies would be removed whole sale from the codex even if the foc altering ability is removed. I think this would eliminate too much of what makes the DA codex unique. One possibility already mentions would be The option of CADs unique to the DA codex .

[SvenONE]

These HQs have lost a little relevance with this edition, with Azrael being hit the hardest. That hq needs help, on paper he looks great, but in this generation of the game there's no room for a 200+ point hq who makes overcosted bikes and terminators troop choices. I have had reasonable success with him as has Brother Prot with the drop pod lists, but otherwise you can leave him at home. Belial for the most part can be recreated with a company master in tda and a MOR. Precision Shots? Who cares. Sammael still holds a little relevance simply because no other model in our army bears an AP2 weapon at initiative.

 

7th edition objective rules have basically obviated the need for troops at all aside from the obligatory 2. Want to run DW without Belial? Take your favorite DW list and cut him. Now you have an extra 190 points to spend on a stock command squad with a fort standard that can sit comfortably in your landraider, giving out fnp to your nearby DW squads.

 

Could RW/GW become supplements? Of course, what better way for gw to make more money than take a codex and make it 3? Will it? Probably not for another 2 years or so.

 

Edit: phone typos

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I'd argue that you can go along with just 2 troop choices. During my games I was forced to remove other people's Troops so that my non-Troops could score. Nothing more frustrating than having to shoot at cultists so they can disappear from an objective you want to claim with bikes when you cold be shooting at other more pressing targets.

[Garath]

 As for Sammael, this year's ETC Germany team member fielded a Ravenwing force and won 5 out of 6 games.  2 of those where against some mean ,mean Tau lists !

 

The list was (can't remember exactly ) :

 

 Sammael on Sableclaw (speeder )

 

 PA Command squad with SoD in a LRC

 

5 units of 6 bikes with melta bombs,no spec weapons .  

5 MM attack bikes

 

Whirlwind

 

  Allied Inquisition: Coatez

 

    The list is full of win.

 

 

  Azrael and Belial...I love them but they both cost too much and do too little.  

[IanSturrock]

I think all three of them would be fine with a points drop, if they no longer unlocked special troop choices. Say 50 points less, each.

 

With the rules as written, the only one who I think is a little expensive is Belial. Azrael seems to offer so much more, for just a few extra points.

[Dotkingz]

I use Sam in his Speeder and he works great. A bike would be nice and another wound would be awesome. As for Azreal he works nicely if he is kept in a land raider. Never used Belial although he could use better WS and BS. Now as for his gear a better sword would make him more appealing. But not a beast as Drago. If this gs keep going as they have been with the new codex that they will lose those nice abilities and be replaced with formations.

[Bryan Blaire]

 

Honestly, I expect to see the "Make RW Troops" and "Make DW Troops" concept going the way of the dodo for 7th Edition anyway (assuming they print a new 'Dex) or for 8th, if they continue to use the same game model for 8th. Instead, I think we will see Formations giving variable numbers of squads of the units from the -wings and different Formation benefits than Objective Secured.

We might even get a special Supplement similar to the Champions of Fenris one for Grimnar giving us some of the formations, etc.

Honestly that would be the end of my DA days unless they fixed about 8 other things in the codex.

I'd really like to know why... And then I'd also like to know what your list of fixes would have to be.

 

To me, there are 2 errors in this this analysis.

First is to base a reasoning on just 2 codex. Basing a generality on 2 observations is often a source of deception because this cannot be representative of 16-18 codex... (Please note by the way that it would also mean, if it's true, that GW would keep a said orientation during more than 2 years, which is as likely as seeing Kirby telling that GW made a bad year... :lol: )

 

The second error is not seeing which codex and which units were involved in the orks and SW codex.

 

We are talking about orks nobz on bikes, Wolf Guards and thunderwolves counting as troops.

 

Ork nobz are not representative of any klan's specificity. Speed freaks basic troops are normal bikes and orks in truks. And those are already troops. There's no reason to put nobz as troops. Like I see no reason to put DW knights as troops as well.

 

Same thing for the Wolf guards or the thunderwolves. The core of each great company are bloodclaws and grey hunters. They don't have an entire company of terminators or thunderwolves fighting sometimes as a whole. Each great company has pack of vets and thunderwolves, sometimes more than the other, but not to justify to use them as basic troops.

 

But for us it's different. Playing DW or RW as an army has always been possible through 3 codex. It's part of the identity of the army and what makes people chooses the DA over other chapters (with the fluff of course). Remove that and you'll lose a large part of the personality and the originality of the chapter.

 

I can imagine that Azrael will no longer make DW AND RW as troops as it's too much of an advantage and breaks game balance in V7 and its "objective secured units".

 

But removing Sammael and Belial's unlocking capacity would represent a risk that I'm not sure GW would take without good reasons.

And actually I hardly see the next codex release bringing us an answer... The only one would be if the Chaos codex suffer a (necessary) revamp and we'll see what happen to TS, DG, WE and EC squads... But we're far from that...

I think you are perhaps placing a little too much emphasis on the DW and RW as being "the identity of the army and what makes people choose DA". Unless you actually have some statistics based on valid survey methods, then you are basing your commentary on anecdotal evidence that is as invalid as stating an observation based on two points of reference is invalid (plus, legitimately, two data points can actually provide a trend line which may or may not be valid, while the statistical unknowns of anecdotal evidence allow no real analysis to occur - so statistically, two data points is actually a more valid trend than unknown anecdotal occurrences).

 

For an army, there is absolutely no reason to put DW as "troops" unless they are specifically in a situation that calls for them. If you don't work the Hunt for the Fallen into every single game you play with a DW army, then you really aren't playing them as necessary.

 

The majority of the fluff does NOT show a Deathwing army operating in isolation, nor does it show only a Ravenwing army operating in isolation. They are almost always (even in Ravenwing, and to my understanding in Master of Sanctity as well, our two most recent books) supported by other units, or in support of other units. Loosing the ability to field a full army of DW or RW would in no way remove the identity or originality of the Chapter, which is supported by the units even existing, not the ability to take an army of them. The fact that they are of unknown numbers and seem to support every DA operation is much more important than fielding them as an army unto themselves.

 

It's almost silly to say it is a risk. Here's why:

 

Explain to me what the issue is between the following that is so severe as to represent and actual risk people will stop playing the Codex:

Original Methodology:

Deathwing Army:

-Overcosted Belial making only DWTS "Troops"

-DWTS get Objective Secured

-No additional benefits

 

Ravenwing Army:

-Arguable costed Sammael making only RWAS "Troops"

-RWAS get Objective Secured

-No additional benefits

 

Mixed Wing Army:

-Overcosted Azrael that doesn't fit either squad type, makes DWTS and RWAS "Troops"

or

-Combine both above characters to get a less arguably costed duo that makes DWTS and RWAS "Troops"

-DWTS and RWAS get Objective Secured

-No additional benefits

 

VS.

 

Possible New Methodology:

Dark Angels can still take a Combined Arms Detachment (old FOC) as normal and Troops get Objective Secured, and get a more cost effective Azrael, Belial and Sammael without any FOC altering rules.

 

Dark Angels Cleansing Force/Strike Force/Patrol Force/whatever force you want to call it:

"This force represents a more flexible set of units as detailed in the Book of the Lion harkening back to the days of the six wings of the original First Legion. It is optimized to sweep the battlefield, setting up the anvil upon which the hammer of the Deathwing will strike down their opponents."

Force Org:

Required:

1 Company Master, Interrogator Chaplain or Librarian

1 Unit of Deathwing Terminators

1 Unit of Ravenwing Assault Squad

2 Units of Tactical Squads

 

Additional Options:

Up to 3 additional Elite units

Up to 3 additional Fast Attack units

Up to 2 additional Troops

Up to 4 Heavy Support units

 

Special Rules (totally made up crap):

-Reroll Warlord trait

-All Fast Attack units must start on the table; if Troops start in reserve, they may choose to come in on round one or two; some rule that lets the Deathwing units to do some kind of powerful assault-ish things

-Something else

 

Then, you can have some additional fluff, Relics and rules in the "Pursuit of Honor" or some such Supplement for DW and RW purity. Inside, you get fluff about special situations where the DW fought alone against things, the RW pursued something, and a mixed wing take out some Fallen.

 

Inside, you get a FOC for 8 Elites, 8 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support (vehicles only), and 2 HQ.

-some special rule improving a stat

-Special Rule reflecting some VP for defeating the highest toughness enemy HQ to interrogate for info on a Fallen

 

Plus six formations: one Inner Circle, an Ironwing LR formation, a special DW Knights unit, a "lance combat unit" of RW with 2 LS Vengeances and a RW LS Support squadron giving some synergy for combat and defense, a special DW command squad + Belial with some bonuses, and a ''Mailed Fist" formation involving two units of DWTS and two RWAS allowing a flanking move without reserves role (no assault though) and immediate Deep Strike of the DWTS that can assault afterward.

 

Plus some special rules for having custom TDA armed Company Master or RW Company Master.

 

Personally, I'll take the flavor of A LOT more material over two Special Rules that don't really do that much, especially if that flavor still allowed me to build everything that the Special Rules would allow, but give me even more stuff. And no, I wouldn't be worried about the cost of an extra book to allow me all those options.

[aura_enchanted]

They would need radical statline changes, and I think more wargear options, I'd like to see belial being able to buy a relic bearer. Belial won't go ap2 he probably will remain as is but he could gain fnp as a result of maybe his armor.

 

Sammy I think should lose gets hot from his pc and his shroud should grant squad wide shrouded

 

Azreal needs his sword to be beefed up plain and simple, his statline makes him a horrid duelist I'd make his statline similar to ko'sarro khan.

 

Asmodai already needs changes, I think the blades of reason should be ap2 and s+1, if they could also use him in a formation with veterans or a company command squad that'd be awesome.

 

Ezekiel needs an invul save thats all d do with him

 

All our named hq's are terrible, and need serious fixing I hope they do something

[aura_enchanted]

 

 

Honestly, I expect to see the "Make RW Troops" and "Make DW Troops" concept going the way of the dodo for 7th Edition anyway (assuming they print a new 'Dex) or for 8th, if they continue to use the same game model for 8th. Instead, I think we will see Formations giving variable numbers of squads of the units from the -wings and different Formation benefits than Objective Secured.

We might even get a special Supplement similar to the Champions of Fenris one for Grimnar giving us some of the formations, etc.

Honestly that would be the end of my DA days unless they fixed about 8 other things in the codex.

I'd really like to know why... And then I'd also like to know what your list of fixes would have to be.

 

To me, there are 2 errors in this this analysis.

First is to base a reasoning on just 2 codex. Basing a generality on 2 observations is often a source of deception because this cannot be representative of 16-18 codex... (Please note by the way that it would also mean, if it's true, that GW would keep a said orientation during more than 2 years, which is as likely as seeing Kirby telling that GW made a bad year... :lol: )

 

The second error is not seeing which codex and which units were involved in the orks and SW codex.

 

We are talking about orks nobz on bikes, Wolf Guards and thunderwolves counting as troops.

 

Ork nobz are not representative of any klan's specificity. Speed freaks basic troops are normal bikes and orks in truks. And those are already troops. There's no reason to put nobz as troops. Like I see no reason to put DW knights as troops as well.

 

Same thing for the Wolf guards or the thunderwolves. The core of each great company are bloodclaws and grey hunters. They don't have an entire company of terminators or thunderwolves fighting sometimes as a whole. Each great company has pack of vets and thunderwolves, sometimes more than the other, but not to justify to use them as basic troops.

 

But for us it's different. Playing DW or RW as an army has always been possible through 3 codex. It's part of the identity of the army and what makes people chooses the DA over other chapters (with the fluff of course). Remove that and you'll lose a large part of the personality and the originality of the chapter.

 

I can imagine that Azrael will no longer make DW AND RW as troops as it's too much of an advantage and breaks game balance in V7 and its "objective secured units".

 

But removing Sammael and Belial's unlocking capacity would represent a risk that I'm not sure GW would take without good reasons.

And actually I hardly see the next codex release bringing us an answer... The only one would be if the Chaos codex suffer a (necessary) revamp and we'll see what happen to TS, DG, WE and EC squads... But we're far from that...

I think you are perhaps placing a little too much emphasis on the DW and RW as being "the identity of the army and what makes people choose DA". Unless you actually have some statistics based on valid survey methods, then you are basing your commentary on anecdotal evidence that is as invalid as stating an observation based on two points of reference is invalid (plus, legitimately, two data points can actually provide a trend line which may or may not be valid, while the statistical unknowns of anecdotal evidence allow no real analysis to occur - so statistically, two data points is actually a more valid trend than unknown anecdotal occurrences).

 

For an army, there is absolutely no reason to put DW as "troops" unless they are specifically in a situation that calls for them. If you don't work the Hunt for the Fallen into every single game you play with a DW army, then you really aren't playing them as necessary.

 

The majority of the fluff does NOT show a Deathwing army operating in isolation, nor does it show only a Ravenwing army operating in isolation. They are almost always (even in Ravenwing, and to my understanding in Master of Sanctity as well, our two most recent books) supported by other units, or in support of other units. Loosing the ability to field a full army of DW or RW would in no way remove the identity or originality of the Chapter, which is supported by the units even existing, not the ability to take an army of them. The fact that they are of unknown numbers and seem to support every DA operation is much more important than fielding them as an army unto themselves.

 

It's almost silly to say it is a risk. Here's why:

 

Explain to me what the issue is between the following that is so severe as to represent and actual risk people will stop playing the Codex:

Original Methodology:

Deathwing Army:

-Overcosted Belial making only DWTS "Troops"

-DWTS get Objective Secured

-No additional benefits

 

Ravenwing Army:

-Arguable costed Sammael making only RWAS "Troops"

-RWAS get Objective Secured

-No additional benefits

 

Mixed Wing Army:

-Overcosted Azrael that doesn't fit either squad type, makes DWTS and RWAS "Troops"

or

-Combine both above characters to get a less arguably costed duo that makes DWTS and RWAS "Troops"

-DWTS and RWAS get Objective Secured

-No additional benefits

 

VS.

 

Possible New Methodology:

Dark Angels can still take a Combined Arms Detachment (old FOC) as normal and Troops get Objective Secured, and get a more cost effective Azrael, Belial and Sammael without any FOC altering rules.

 

Dark Angels Cleansing Force/Strike Force/Patrol Force/whatever force you want to call it:

"This force represents a more flexible set of units as detailed in the Book of the Lion harkening back to the days of the six wings of the original First Legion. It is optimized to sweep the battlefield, setting up the anvil upon which the hammer of the Deathwing will strike down their opponents."

Force Org:

Required:

1 Company Master, Interrogator Chaplain or Librarian

1 Unit of Deathwing Terminators

1 Unit of Ravenwing Assault Squad

2 Units of Tactical Squads

 

Additional Options:

Up to 3 additional Elite units

Up to 3 additional Fast Attack units

Up to 2 additional Troops

Up to 4 Heavy Support units

 

Special Rules (totally made up crap):

-Reroll Warlord trait

-All Fast Attack units must start on the table; if Troops start in reserve, they may choose to come in on round one or two; some rule that lets the Deathwing units to do some kind of powerful assault-ish things

-Something else

 

Then, you can have some additional fluff, Relics and rules in the "Pursuit of Honor" or some such Supplement for DW and RW purity. Inside, you get fluff about special situations where the DW fought alone against things, the RW pursued something, and a mixed wing take out some Fallen.

 

Inside, you get a FOC for 8 Elites, 8 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support (vehicles only), and 2 HQ.

-some special rule improving a stat

-Special Rule reflecting some VP for defeating the highest toughness enemy HQ to interrogate for info on a Fallen

 

Plus six formations: one Inner Circle, an Ironwing LR formation, a special DW Knights unit, a "lance combat unit" of RW with 2 LS Vengeances and a RW LS Support squadron giving some synergy for combat and defense, a special DW command squad + Belial with some bonuses, and a ''Mailed Fist" formation involving two units of DWTS and two RWAS allowing a flanking move without reserves role (no assault though) and immediate Deep Strike of the DWTS that can assault afterward.

 

Plus some special rules for having custom TDA armed Company Master or RW Company Master.

 

Personally, I'll take the flavor of A LOT more material over two Special Rules that don't really do that much, especially if that flavor still allowed me to build everything that the Special Rules would allow, but give me even more stuff. And no, I wouldn't be worried about the cost of an extra book to allow me all those options.

I think that da's won't lose the "make x troops gimmick" as it really is our big hq gimmick and always has been. If anything space marines will be losing this. It's simply doing the unthinkable and if they do that I'm sorry but I'll be jumping to 30k ruleset. I might lose dedicated raven and deathwing but I could pickup some awesome assault potential.

 

I'd probably also pickup some not busted hq's which is nice

 

Also they better not murder the monster Hunter of caliban as a relic or imma be so mad

 

For New units, I'd like to get dread chaplains, I'd also like to not have our veterans broke up.

[Bryan Blaire]

Always has been?

 

It wasn't in 2nd Edition, which didn't have the Troop requirement, and it certainly wasn't in 3rd Edition, because it wasn't tied specifically to an HQ, you just had a specific army composition when playing a "pure army" (yes, it included a Master of the Deathwing, but the ability wasn't tied to his special rules).

 

In reality, my suggested "adjusted FOC by detachment" is actually closer to the 3rd Edition mechanic than 4th & 6th Edition 'Dexes were, and it would allow you to potentially use HQs aside from just Belial, Sammael, or Azrael, so it let's you show many more scenarios, ancient battles, etc. All in all, it's also more flexible than simple Special Rules.

 

Veterans shouldn't be broken up or become any Stern/Vanguard analogs, because that isn't what they are. They are simply "more advanced" battle line Marines, not 1st Company, the Deathwing are (and 1st Company is what Stern and Vanguard Vets are).

 

I think people are losing sight of what "Troops" mean any more. Outside the Combined Arms Detachment, it is effectively a meaningless designation, because a Detachment could have an FOC with any number of designator of any type, where the slot with the highest number are the "troops" of the force (i.e. the main combat line). The "Troops" in the Codex merely represents the "normal" troop units. I think we can all agree that the very, very elite Deathwing are never going to be rated as merely "normal troops". An elite detachment is much, much better representative than simply shifting them to be "Troops", if nothing else in description, especially if it gets rules that makes them more useful.

 

There isn't any reason to feel completely beholden to the basic Combined Arms Detachment FOC any more, because you can be given new FOCs reflecting other forces at a whim by GW, giving you more options and alternate rules to use your forces. Special Rules that simply alter the Combined Arms Detachment FOC slot organization seem like a waste to me, when you could get so much more.