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Where would Chaos go...


Goreshed

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As much as I wanted to make some horrible joke at the expense of my mortal soul, I really had no idea what to name this topic for what I am asking my fellow traitors.

 

We had the Eye of Terror Campaign. We've had a couple that have tired to mimic it but...well I let history speak for itself. But lately the big push in the 40k world hasn't been 40k, its been 30k (at least for our fluffy sake). Now don't get me wrong, as someone who has been in the hobby as long as I have I never thought I would see the day where the whispered rumors of what happened during the Horus Heresy would ever get spelled out. I think it is great that they have done a lot in this regard and I look forward to the day that someone finally gets to read about the battle on Terra itself. But...

 

What about Chaos now? (Or rather...in the 41st Millenium).

 

We have the Eye, we have the Maelstrom, we have traitors turning all the time and crusades sent just to reclaim systems that have fallen under the sway of warlords and other such lovelies that our ignorant distant relatives who worship a false corpse god seem to find the need to go and retake from us (the nerve...).

 

And yet...fluff seems to be in a stand still. I'd like to change that however I am but one lowly smudge on the galaxies underwear and can only do so much. Hence me wanting to reach out to the rest of you to colaborate and make our own future. Thoughts? Ideas? Lets sacrifice to the dark gods and see what happens...

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I'm assuming this is from GW actually making a push for an endgame kind of story for Fantasy?

 

Truth is none of us know. GW maintains a static, degrading continuum so people can continue to forge their own narratives. Which in retrospect; so they can just milk as many novels and minute product changes as possible. Since they refuse to openly communicate to the public like regular people, you can only grasp at assumptions to their goals.

 

Judging from 7th in general being a rehash, I'd say no where. Especially as we still have 5th edition codexes in need of updating, while our own (csm) rules suck.

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I'm taking a strictly fluffy go on this one. I've long since learned that trying to fit rules/end games into this would be pointless. More along the lines of...how would you want to see chaos work from the end of the 41st to the begining of the 42nd. To go for the end game push would be more of a waste since it wont happen. I'm more along the line of the next chaos invasion.

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the endgame for fantasy is not going to end well.

 

either it will be retconned out of existence, used to justify dropping the line entirely (with a last haha got you suckers!) or at the end of the day alienate the players because it either DOES or DOESN'T change anything.

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Point is, the End Times for WFB are an event engineered in order to completely revamp Fantasy. The game model is stale and the armies do not sell well. Will it be terminated? No, for if you consider how much of an investment in moulds, work hours, printing and merchandise went into this event it is clear that GW is not willing to let Fantasy slip away. WFB will stay and hopefully it will be a tabula rasa thing, an ex novo game system and army building concept. 

 

As for Chaos 40k. Well I think there have been major leaps in the past two years since our codex came out. At long last the thirteen Black Crusades have been given an ample explanation and presented as crucial, pivotal events in the fall of the Imperium. Abaddon won each and everyone of them and he met his goals, him or his lieutenants. We also glimpsed at the tragedy of the Slave/Legion Wars and they seem to be as much cardinal to our storyline, if not more than the Massacre of Istvaan. Here the legions shattered, here the Warmaster was reborn, here the first Chaos Space Marines came to be, no longer legionaries but as champions of Chaos. 

 

Not only that, the Abyssal Crusade was also a clear and pivotal event. Dozens of Chapters fell to Chaos which means that between them we have something like 10000 new chaos space marines roaming around. Also with some recent novels we uncovered that Huron has also a really massive traitor and renegade force at his back so things are looking sorry for the Imperium. 

 

Also minor as it may seem, Crimson Slaughter and Dark Vengeance have done more for Chaos than all other releases for the looks of the Chosen, the charm of a novice renegade warband and a fleshed out new story about the fall of a noble Chapter into the embrace of Chaos, well those things have an aura of the warp that is very enticing, especially to new players who actually have a fully explained and rulewise supported army to play and collect. 

 

Fluffwise, Chaos is stepping out of the loyalist shadows. For years we were simply considered the spikey and corrupted counterpart of a loyal space marine but now we have a defining look, we have technoarcane and biological war machines, corrupted and organic marines, the Helbrute statement as I call it and it is awesome. We are becoming Chaos as it is meant to be. Evil, corrupted, organic, magical and vicious. With the advent of Daemonology we have not only become truer to our lore as callers of Daemons and corrupted and mad Sorcerers but it is also a great way to present all those daemonic pact that our warband has done in the millennia. 

 

I could agree that Cadia is at this moment in a stalemate, but we also know that this was exactly the plan of Abaddon, his Crimson Path to unfold. Yet on the other hand we have the awesome series Black Crusade, the roleplay books from FFG, which effectively show us the life, technology, rituals, spells and pacts of a chaos space marines warband. The Vortex in those series is like a mini Eye of Terror and if we read across the fluff parts of the books we learn what really is a daemon world and how the truly wicked, magical and impossible can be achieved with Chaos and the Warp.

 

As I say, it is a good time to be a Chaos Space Marine in lore. 

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Fluff wise I'd love to see official chapters turn renegade. NoThing huge, but perhaps some smaller ones like Hawk Lords or Brotherhood of a Thousand.

 

I'm about the only one I know happy with the "120seconds till midnight" thing, mostly because we were there when the Legion broke Cadia and started the end game! (Eye of terror campaign). I consider it in light of no begin I g and no end to chaos. We saw the future that day brethren

 

Never forget.

 

Edit-wow Tenebris dropping the wisdom of the chaos blessed there, I'm ninja's!

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I have to say I agree with Tenebris. Its good to be Chaos marine in the lore, even you are completely outclassed almost every army on tabletop and with New Wolf Codex game around my C:SM have been more or less been speed bump when people have steam rolled over pretty much anything that hasn't been Nurgle or daemon spam. I always can enjoy the fluff, even new Wolves keep kicking my teeth down my throat on gaming table. LOL.

 

Fantasy has been standstill for years. End of Times is more likely attempt to shake things up and get new players for the Fantasy and perhaps revamping system when new Edition hits. Since fantasy is way smaller revenue bringer than 40K GW can more safely test huge changes and how gamers react. If its successful (time will tell) we'll see something similar in 40K in upcoming years. 

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I guess the idea I'm going with in this thread is to try and create a new '14th black crusade' as it were. We have a huge canvas to use and yet even with the above mentioned things getting fleshed out there still leaves a lot out there that can happen. Similar to the Dorian Heresy, but far more radical in the regards that this isn't so much of a rewrite of history but instead filling more in.

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I didn't think that the 13th Black Crusade was actually over? If so, I'll need to delve deeper into the current fluff.

 

One thing to keep in mind with comparing fantasy to 40k is right there in the titles: the scale of time. Yes, we feel that 12 years is long time since GW hosted the 13th, and it would be in WHF, but not so much in 40k. More to the point, a few hundred years is just a drop in the bucket for the scale of fluff that's really been developed and explored since 2nd ed (as most of Rogue Trader has been retconned). I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but I keep that in mind when considering how huge events don't happen very often.

 

Not to mention they'd need to roll over the clock and call it Warhammer 41,000 which doesn't have as nice of a ring to it.

 

But I do agree with Tenebris, they've done a great job lately in developing Chaos beyond just being more spiky. 

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Abbadon gets to Terra.

The Emperor, using the last of his power, sends an elite team back in time to stop the Heresy from ever occuring.

They kill Kor Phaeron, only to find out that he is only an evil clone - engineered by Alpha Legion.

Lorgar confronts past Emperor - who reveals that he's not really the former's father but is actually his twice removed cousin, on his mother's step-brother's side.

Together they build a better AI to help them conquer the universe.

But the Mechanicum ostricize the AI, which causes the latter to rebel and start a war agains the humans.

After 10K years of war, the humans are enslaved and their minds trapped in an alternate reality engineered by the AI to keep the humans in line.

The Emperor's mind breaks free though but he has amnesia.

And somewhere in there, there's this ring.

 

Gosh, I could write all this stuff myself.

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I didn't think that the 13th Black Crusade was actually over? If so, I'll need to delve deeper into the current fluff.

 

 

its..... Been expanded. The campaign itself has been retconned back to square one where it is just beginning. The Crusade itself is no longer just about taking the Cadian Gate as it was in 3 Edition: it is about the taking of Terra, the Crimson Path.

 

We are also getting expanded backgrounds on the earlier Crusades and their exact details. For example, the First Crusade. Blows through Cadia. Causes havoc and then just vanishes. That is the old fluff, by the way. But for longest time it has been declared a "defeat" for Chaos. Where was the defeat?

 

So to some, this new angle is "Ultramarine-ish" in that it is showing how some of those "defeats" were not defeats an how even in those defeats, there was still a minor victory pulled from the ashes.

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Maybe. But then again, the 13 Black crusades remind me of very RTS game match I've ever played.

 

A single foray to test reaction times. And then several back and forths to keep the enemy from hurting you while trying to do irreparable damage to them. And it all finally ends when you're able to just steamroll right over them. So I'll see your BS and raise you a tactic.

 

Of course, this is all just my opinion and has every right to be ignored.

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Consider the Crusades as campaigns. With specific goals because of reasons, with horrendous casualty ratings because numbers, and Abbadon either leaving before a retaliatory strike or whatever because he finished at the pivitol moment before getting steam rolled.

 

Personally, I don't consider macguffins as satisfactory conclusions to campaigns and horrendous losses which magically replenish because plot. Which is similar to Marneus Suegar fisting an Avatar and being a tactical genious everywhere, you're going to see a supreme resurgence of glorifying the crap out of it until Black is the new Blue.

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Yes I agree that GW will never end things (this is the war that neeeeever ends it goes on and on my friends....*yes I am a evil bastard that got that song stuck in your head*)

 

But I'm not talking about what we see GW doing. I'm talking about composing something that actually can spark fluff and modeling. They drew the giant flashy red marking over the 13th crusade? Lets reignight that badboy and see what we come up with.

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In my opinion Chaos and thus the story (if you want to call it that - it's a setting d***) has no place to go.

 

It's forever 5 minutes before midnight. There can never be a 14th Black Crusade because the 13th will end everything. This isn't even really speculation but spelled out in many sources. Time can't move forward because if it did Abbadon would win. Or maybe he would be stopped at the last minute but really it amounts to the same. Everything is forever changed and only really Tzeentch gets to be happy...

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