Naryn Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 So as an Iron Warriors player, I want my army to have a lot of tanks. The issue I'm running into is that Predators and Vindicators are pretty vulnerable, Sicarians are 1 per slot, and Land Raiders are all really expensive. So the question I have is, what do people consider to be the best Heavy Support choice in the Legion list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 For the points? Predator tanks and Rapier batteries. Those are some of the most cost effective heavy support. Sicarans are also great bangs for the buck and perform better than predators, albiet for slightly more points. Medusas without phosphex and Whirlwind Scorpius are also good choices. Contemptor Mortis dreads are good as support, but too expensive to be line units. I would avoid land raiders for heavy support. They are primarily transports that happen to have guns. I love vindicators, but sadly in a world with hull points and lots of cover saves its main gun and poor armor just doesn't cut it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 We had a thread about this a while back. I'd say things have probably changed a little since then, but not by much. I think Predators, WW Scorpii, and Sicarans are all still top picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naryn Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 It's almost worth taking Hammer of Olympia just to get an extra Heavy Support slot. I'm looking at 2 Medusas, 2 preds, and 5 ml havocs at 1850; does that seem reasonable? I have limited access to heresy games, so I'm trying to get a feel for what others bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Teeth Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Sicarans and Scorpius' are clear winners as far as I can see, in most armies. But some of the loadouts you can generate for a bargain price in Predator Squadrons are bonkers! 3 Predators: Autocannon, heavy bolters, pintle heavy bolter: 330 points. *an extra 75 for Machine Spirits all round would let you fire the Autocannons at Armour and leave the bolters for Infantry. 3 Predators: Magna-melta, pintle bolter (cheap weapon-destroyed insurance): 375 points. That's some firepower right there for scarcely the cost of a Spartan and totalling 9 Hull Points apiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I would even go so far as to say once you start putting upgraded turrets on the Preds, to consider giving one of them the Command Upgrade, allowing a single tank to gain the Interceptor. If that tanks were to have, say, a plasma cannon.... could be a bad day for any deep striking unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Teeth Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 They removed the Interceptor part of the Command Tank rule after Betrayal. Sadly no longer the awesome upgrade it was :*(. Just an infamtry Morale buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 They removed the Interceptor part of the Command Tank rule after Betrayal. Sadly no longer the awesome upgrade it was :*(. Just an infamtry Morale buff. I just checked my little red book and you're right, but I think its a misprint. The line is a copy paste from the shadow sword tank, but in the equipment section. Has anybody contacted forgeworld about this? Its kinda a big deal for some units like Predator squadrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sircyn Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I've never been disappointed in a pair of Medusa's, S10 barrage is really useful against the masses of flare shield vehicles you'll encounter. There are few other ranged options against those kinds of targets that aren't LoW. Don't be wasting your time on basilisks though ;( Rapier batteries are tough and cheap for the firepower they bring, but that elites slot is highly contested in 30k. And might stretch your definition of armour. Contemptor Mortis, Scorpius and Sicarians are all cost effective choices, hampered by being only one per slot. This is not a problem if at 3k you move on to apoc, but our group likes to stick with the FoC up to twice that for a lot of our games. So it depends on your points level whether you need to consider this. I've found vindicators to be too fragile for a 1 per slot vehicle, though machine spirit does make them much more useful. Sometimes one shell can pay for the pair of my vindicators, all it takes is a lower than average set of invulnerable saves on a terminator death star! But they just as often get picked apart by lascannons in the first Twp turns of the game. Predators have the bonus of being cheap and coming in squadrons, the stock turret or the executioner being stand outs for cost effectiveness, if you have points to splash lascannons sponsons and machine spirit really up the range of targets they can effectively engage. The Spartan is everything a land raider wants to be. Nigh on indestructible and bringing a formidable mobile laser party as well as massive, reliable transport provision. You can't think of going heavy on legion armour without considering this vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naryn Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 I'm a big fan of Predators, but that side armor 11 scared me. I'm tempted to march them forward in a wall, with an executioner/las in the middle and auto/las on either side. How does that rate as far as uses for the squadron go? I like the Multi-Melta, but with Armored Ceramite and the short range, it makes me nervous of investing too many points into the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Don't be scared off by the side AV11. If you have confidence in the Sicaran and its side AV12, then have just as much in the Predator. There's a mathematical difference between 11 and 12, it just doesn't end up amounting to much once you actually start using them. The important points? Either will shrug off infantry/anti-infantry weapons (bolters, heavy bolters, etc), either is paper to proper anti-tank, and either will get chewed up by cheap massed firepower (like autocannons and missile launchers). The durability comes from the ability to mass hull points for low cost - and sometimes, with the right positioning and battlefield conditions, you can even get 'side' AV13 by arranging your squadron's facings properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 If you're rocking a squadron of 2 or 3 you can pretty easily 'fan them out' for a AV13 facing wall You probably don't need Armored Ceramite either. If you're in metla range you're likely to take 3 hull points of damage anyway. That auto/las exec/las combo is one of my favorites, especially if you use the non typo command vehicle upgreydd. Keep them cheap so you can bring more. e: or grab a pair with conversion beamers and fire away from your back field with S10 AP1 death rays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sircyn Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 And your thoughts on the melta are correct. Range, ceramite and lack of synergy with sponsons don't really do it for me. Mixing your turrets is fine if you're putting machine spirits on your vehicles. You can slap 6 lascannons into something while your turret guns go off doing their own thing. Your side armour is not gonna make much difference to high strength ordnance barrage so just concentrate on keeping your front facing pointing the right way. Predators can sit at 36 inch range and do their job so it will be quite tough to get at it unless they have outflankers/drop pods. Bulbafist is right about armoured ceramite on press. If your for is that close your fragile tanks are dead. Save the points to put ceramite on your av14 hulls where I'll make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naryn Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Glad to hear that predators are viable. Thanks for the advice, everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic63 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Since you are playing Iron Warriors, you have the pick of the litter when it comes to effective heavy support choices because of how intensely your legion is geared towards excelling in that slot (and indeed the big guns role in general). Unlike Imperial Fists (who have their 'siege' elements boosted via their special rules, while their unique units are more fighty/defendy) your legion has solid morale and access to two pretty enviable units (Tyrant Terminators and Iron Havocs). If you are going to pack your Heavy Support slot, I would indeed recommend Hammer of Olympia not just for the extra slot but also for the free Extra Armour and the extra benefits your Tacticals are going to get. Overall I would say that Iron Havocs > Heavy Support Squads for a vehicle/aircraft hunting role (honestly Tank Hunter Missile Launchers with free Flakk is about as good as it gets for Infantry based AA), but for anti-MEQ and anti-TEQ the latter is a bit better cause it can take Culverins/Plasma Cannons. Predator Strike Squadrons are honestly one of the best Heavy Support options in the book, since they get double the Autocannon shots as normal Predators for no cost increase, and gain some very effective turret weapons compared to the standard Autocannon/TL Lascannon typically seen. Machine Spirit is also awesome, since it allows your Predators to be more flexible and mobile when they have sponsons. Yeah Iron Warriors have so many juicy HS choices (really a solo Vindicator is the only lacking one I think) its a good thing to have the extra slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naryn Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 That Iron Havoc versus Heavy support dichotomy is exactly what I found as well. I'm glad the Predators are generally seen as a pretty good choice. That said, what should I take when I do my Hammer of Olympia to get that 4th slot? A Sicarian? Another 3 predators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic63 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 That Iron Havoc versus Heavy support dichotomy is exactly what I found as well. I'm glad the Predators are generally seen as a pretty good choice. That said, what should I take when I do my Hammer of Olympia to get that 4th slot? A Sicarian? Another 3 predators? It strongly depends on what your other 3 choices are. Can you post a sample list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naryn Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 At 2500 points, a Master of Signal, two twenty-man tacs with attached Apothecaries, a Thudd Gun, 3 hyperios sentry guns, ten missile launcher Havocs, 2 Medusas, two auto/las preds and an exec/las pred, and a firestorm redoubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Don't forget that Iron Havocs don't have to have all the same weapons like a normal Heavy Support. So you can get a little bit of variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I will say that a squad of volkite culverins will obliterate most infantry units and are super handy when facing terminators or castellax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 at Heavy 4, a Squad of 10 HS with Volite Culverins are pretty much guaranteed to erase GEQ squads, maybe even MEQ or TEQ if RNGesus is with you. Deflagrate makes it that much more enticing. Even at AP5, you are forcing a lot of saves. Expensive, but at 45" range, their have a good bit of range over most things that can pose a threat, barring, say, fliers and artillery or Deep Strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 if RNGesus is with you. "...And may the dice be with you too brother." :P Hell, I've seen a squad of 5 camp in a building and blow the bejeebies out of 2+ save units all day. Deflagrate is a willing mistress if you appease her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I kinda want to see a list with all HS filled with maxed out Volkite Culverin Squads....MARTIAN DEATH RAYS FOR DAAAAYYYYSSS Thats a potential 120 Volkite Culverin shots before Deflagrate. At ~45". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I kinda want to see a list with all HS filled with maxed out Volkite Culverin Squads.... MARTIAN DEATH RAYS FOR DAAAAYYYYSSS Thats a potential 120 Volkite Culverin shots before Deflagrate. At ~45". I think I just pee'd a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I don't think there are a lot of things that could survive that. On the flip side, its a very brittle glass cannon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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