Surrender_Monkey Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 A while ago (when the Firedrakes were first previewed) I decided to start a Salamanders heresy army, having proceeded at my usual sloth like pace, I have now nearly painted a 10 man tactical squad, I'm pretty happy with how the colour scheme is coming along, so its time to write some army lists to work towards, I thought I'd start at 1000pts because heresy is not cheap. Rite of War: The Covenant of Fire HQ Praetor (140) - Dragonscale Storm Shield - Master Crafted Thunder Hammer Troops Tactical Squad (210) - Sergeant w/ Combi-Flamer - 5 Extra Marines Tactical Squad (210) - Sergeant w/ Combi-Flamer - Rhino w/ Heavy Flamer Pyroclast Squad (210) - Rhino w/ Heavy Flamer Heavy Support Sicaran Battle Tank (155) - Heavy Bolter Sponsons Whirlwind (75) So the basic concept is for the Praetor, Pyroclasts and small Tactical squad to move forward, with the other Tanks in support, and the big tactical squad to camp any home objectives. I am a bit short on anti tank, the Pyroclasts can deal with anything if they can get close, but I've got nothing at range, I'm hoping at 1000pts I won't face any heavy armour and the Sicaran should be capable of dealing with light vehicles. The Praetor does feel like overkill at this points value, but I feel like Covenant of Fire is a must have for Salamanders, with move through cover in particular looking really useful. The loadout is mostly because I have a conversion in mind and is roughly how I'd want to equip him at higher points cost (with the addition of an Iron Halo and some Fire Drake buddies). The Sicaran seems like a great tank at this points level, and is also probably my favourite heresy model that Forge World have produced so far. The Whirlwind is there because I had about 100 points left over and didn't know what to get, I also have an old 2nd Edition Whirlwind I plan to renovate for the job (I also have a couple of 2nd Edition Rhinos). One change I am considering is changing the Pyroclasts for a Tactical Support Squad, I could get 9 for the same price and still have room for the Praetor, 9 S5 Flamers will deal with almost any infantry, but it would leave me with even fewer options against armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Teeth Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 The lack of solid anti tank is certainly noticeable; relying on your Sicaran to do everything is very 'eggs-meet-basket', I think. I understand you have a model in mind, but the Whirlwind is a fair weak link in the list. There may be more effective choices. 2 Rapier platforms with Laser Destroyers are only 110 and are very punchy. You could perhaps take a smaller Support squad than 9 to make the difference up? A Magna-melta Predator starts from 120pts and might be fluffier if bring a little more fragile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozenfoods Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Pyroclasts can't take a Rhino, only Land Raiders. The Whirlwind points are off, unless I'm out of date, the only one I can find is the 115 Scorpius.HQ - 185 Legion Praetor - 185Dragonscale Storm Shield, Mantle of the Elder Drake, Thunder Hammer, Iron Halo, Artificer Weapons.Troops - 555 Legion Tactical Squad - 210 14x, Combi-flamer serg.Legion Tactical Squad - 210 14x, Combi-flamer serg.Legion Tactical Support Squad - 1354x, Artificer Weapons, Bombs serg.Heavy Support - Variable - either 210 (add arti armor/bombs to both tac sergs, arti armor to support serg) or 245210 variant - Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer, Armored Ceramite.245 Variant - Legion Vindicator, Laser Destroyer ArrayLegion Whirlwind Scorpius.1000 210 variant/995 245 variantEdit - I know that we love flamer weapons as Salamanders, but remember the platforms you're paying points to put them on. A rhino's gonna be moving it's full 12" pretty much every turn that you have it on the board. You'll never even get a lucky snap fire when you can't ever drop a template due to cruising speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazarak Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Why is covenant of fire a must have? I mean, the praetor tax in 1000 points is a pretty hefty penalty to pay and honestly, he seems a little out of place in this list. A master of signal is completely awesome and a little more realistic in a smaller point battle (centurion vs praetor I mean). My opinion on pyroclasts is that they really don't do anything that can't be done for much less by something else. Now I bought the models (of course!), but you can do all sorts of cool things with them that don't require them to be fielded as pyroclasts proper. I have modeled mine as sternguard/seekers myself. On Rhinos: I hear what frozenfoods is saying, but I still put stuff on mine, just because I imagine that's what a salamander army would look like. I chose Havocs for no good reason that I can think of other than I think they look cool. On Sicaran: I love it and I love you for putting it in your list. Great model, good on the table, made of win really. Dreads: Mortis dreads seem an auto include to me, contemptors if you have bucks, regular if you don't. Great anti-air and anti-armor for an efficient points cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozenfoods Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Oh yeah. Absolutely use the clasts as support squads, that's exactly what I did. I went the whole hog and got breachers for my tacs. My general idea was to throw the beatstick praetor with the supports, have them split off, unload on some poor unit and he goes in to mop up. But a Master of Signal would work a lot more efficiently, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kor'Vesh Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Hi Surrender_Monkey. So your list is very similar to the one I'm building, and thus, I like it. I think you need to buy Lascannons for your sicaran though, as this will give you the all important additional anti-tank. Upgrading your whirlwind to a scorpius would also be advisable, as this is a great all purpose tank (just look around the forums for Kitwulfen's comments on it). I'd also add melta bombs to your sargs over the combi weapons and run your (suicide) rhino naked. Frozenfoods is also bang on about the Pyroclasts not being able to take a rhino. At 1000 points I'm planning to let them borrow the rhino from my 10 man squad. It is far from perfect, but I think it will be OK for my list. This alone will pay for the Lascannons I think. OK so apparently contentious issues: 1. Pyroclasts - I think they are a good unit, and bring a lot to the table compared to a flamer support squad. They have a 2+ save, which adds a lot of resilience, but also an invulnerable save against two weapon types that would usually be used to breach this - plasma and melta. This is clearly a big advantage over 3+ save flamer troops. They also bring flexibility, with the melta rule - now this is short ranged and quite low strength, but allows them to also tackle vehicles and kick out some low AP shots which upset enemy terminators. This to my mind makes them worth the points versus the flamer squad. For a cost, the addition of melta bombs ensures that they can tackle ANY target, and the ROW makes them troops. I personally think they are a very good unit for taking and holding a forward objective in cover. To my mind it is a fair toss up between a bare bones pyro squad and the equal points of flamer support guys in a ROW list, which is good design. I'd take pyros over the melta support team everytime. I think they are balanced and decent and shouldn't be written off, especially 8 in a scouting proteus (obviously for higher points). 2. Right of War - I do not agree that it is essential for Salamanders to use the right of war; but I agree that it brings A LOT to the table, especially for a combined arms force. I am using it for my 1k list, and I would normally say that ROW should be avoided at low points. Move through cover is a big deal for both your infantry and tanks. It compensates for the slower running of the Salamanders, and lets you force your attacks wherever you want them, or protect your infantry from scary low AP blast weapons without compromising their mobility. The invulnerable save gained for vehicles against certain weapons is also a nice boon, and increases the survivability of your armour, most pertinently against melta (and I THINK melta bombs... need to check my book) for free. Add in scoring pyroclasts (great objective holders, and ideal body guard for your preator) and its a great set of bonuses for an army, at a small cost. The twin-linked melta effect should just be viewed a s a bonus - it is pretty irrelevant really. SO - I think in this case, the covenant of fire IS a good move, and the Praetor tax is worth paying. I'd kit him out with a Paragon Blade at this points level though, as striking last is not a good idea with no invulnerable save or mantle. Running him with your pyroclasts will improve their utility even more, and protect them when they inevitably get charged. Any chance of seeing your models? It sounds like I'm marginally ahead of you in my painting... (10 men and 3 pyros!) Kor'Vesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 I didn't realise the Pyroclasts couldn't take a Rhino, it does make them pretty impractical at this points level, unless I invested in a Land Raider, which I am also not keen on at this points level. The standard Whirlwind is under the Legion Artillery Tank Squadron in the stand alone Crusade Army List book, in with the Basilisk and Medusa. The thing that bothers me about frozenfoods' list is that everyone is footslogging, I'm all for a big Tactical Squad on foot, but for stuff like support squads I think you really need some transport to get in range. Also Artificer weapons are characters only, so the regular guys can't have them, not that master crafting actually helps with flamers, since unlike twin linked master crafted only affects to hit rolls. Right now I like Emperors Teeth's suggestion of a Rapier battery, and change out the Pyroclasts for a support squad, it comes out something like this: Praetor (Storm Shield, Master Crafted Thunder Hammer or Paragon Blade) 10 Man Tactical Squad in Rhino 15 Man Tactical Squad on foot. 7 Man Support Squad in Rhino 2 Laser Destroyer Rapiers Sicaran with Heavy Bolters This comes to 955pts, so I'm pondering whether to tool up the Praetor with an Iron Halo and Mantle, or spend the points on some utility stuff like Lascannons for the Sicaran, Melta Bombs for the Sergeants and maybe an extra support squad marine. I think Kor'Vesh is probably right about the Paragon Blade being a better choice if you're not going with Eternal Warrior and 3++, but I've got a cool conversion in mind for the Thunder Hammer, plus it's a more fluffy weapon choice. I'm a little torn. Unfortunately I've not got a decent camera at the moment, not even a phone camera, but I intend on getting one (I also want to share some of my Eldar on reddit) so maybe I'll get them up soon. I've gone for a lighter shade of green than Forge World's usual depiction, more akin to the scheme in the 40k codex. This is mostly because when I showed my test model to some people at the club they said it was a nice looking Dark Angel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Getting an Iron Halo on a Preator that already has a Storm Shield would be a waste since the 3++ of the Storm Shield isn't changed in any way by the 4+ of the Iron Halo. Your best bet is the Mantle for Eternal Warrior. A Paragon Blade also doesn't have unwieldy so you could Instant-Death another character with a TH, Pfist or Paxe before they got to swing. Safest addition would be Lascannons to the Sicarian and Armored Ceramite if it doesn't already have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Dragonscale Storm shield doesn't give 3++. It gives 5++ or improves a ward save by 1. So the iron halo becomes 3++, otherwise it would just be 5++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Hmm alright thought it was like the Vigil Pattern Storm Shield that gave a flat 3+, my bad :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 It's not that good unfortunately. Not sure if it's a lot cheaper than the Vigil. Also not sure if the Vigil can be taken by none terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Vigil is pretty much terminators (IC or not) and Alexis Polux. It costs a melta gun on Cataphractii and Melta Gun + Bombs on Non-Cataphractii. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 I finally got a new phone and took some pictures of the test squad, you may have seen them on reddit already: http://i.imgur.com/WvWMrwsl.jpg I've got a second squad on the way, including two sergeants with magnetised guns so I have flexibility with combi-weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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