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Tempestus Scions


Acebaur

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So, I'm about to pick up a box of Tempestus Scions on the cheap and was thinking of using them for bitz to make some Neophytes. However, I'm not 100% sold on the idea and if I don't I was wondering how they are as a unit in a pure AM army.  I was thinking that the allies contingent of them I've talked about in the past is large enough that I could potentially turn it into a small independent AM army of it's own. So are they worth taking  if I'm only running AM? or are they still too pricey for what you get?

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You know it hurts when Tau Deep Strikes like 3 Crisis suits with all Fusion or all Plasma and shoot up all your armor or heavy infantry in your back lines? Or when Dark Eldar does the same with a Raider full of Fire Dragon Aspects?

 

Well, Scions do it cheaper. But they are paper thin.

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They can also make for good carapace Veterans, but it's more or less as Kilo said. They're a bit specialised so you need to use them in their best roles to get the most out of them as they're not cheap for a Guard army. Stuff like deep striking in to hit hard targets is where they shine, though don't expect them to live too long after the event. They're wasted against weak/numerous opponents generally, becoming expensive Veterans unless you're shooting at well armoured targets - you pay for AP3 and their special rules so you should be exploiting them as much as possible :)

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I'm not really sold on the volley gun. It's nice enough, but it's just adding more of the same fire that you already have so the special weapon slots are better used for something different like melta or plasma. I'd consider them for command squads as it'd let them put out a disproportionate amount of fire, but for only a 5 man squad that'll probably be a high target anyway I'm not convinced confused.gif

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I like Plasma, Melta and Flamer.

 

I don't like to mix and match so I run MT Squads with 2xPlasma Gun+1xPlasma Pistol, or MT Squads with 2xFlamer, and MT Command Squads with 4xMelta.

 

I think Plasma is superior to Volley.

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As others have said, Scions are for high value high return suicide targets (ironically enough GW has created a unit whose use matches their fluff).  Their best weapons are meltas and plasmas because they have the biggest Alpha strike potential.  I would only run Volley Guns in a command squad with a bunker to shoot out of.  Every other time I've tried Volley Guns their return has been lackluster vs the units cost.

 

Scions biggest strengths that can't be gotten from other AM units are:

 

1.  Deep Strike + Move Through Cover.

2.  Taurox Primes

 

My most high profile kills with Scions to date are:

 

Abbadon (apoc warlord) + terminator retinue + landraider.  I sank the raider+cargo through the ice on a frozen sea with a lucky deep strike melta shot.  The Scions fell through the ice at the same time.

 

Imperial Knight.  Cooked the Knight by Deep Striking on the side without the shield and rolled an explosion which killed the Knight.  The explosion took out the melta scions and a second melta scion squad that didn't even get a chance to fire before the Knight exploded.

 

In every case where I've used Scions aggressively they either fail spectacularly (several DS mishaps or missed shots) or succeed spectacularly (killing abbadon or the Knight).  They also rarely ever survive their mission.  They are too fragile and too dangerous for opponents to leave them wandering about. 

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What size squad do you guys run with the Scions? Obviously the command squad is 5 man only, but do you also go with 5 men for the regular squad since you expect them to die anyway?

 

I kind of feel like plasma is better delivered by the cheaper and same BS Veterans. I agree that melta with it's short range would be more useful on Scions with their DS ability. 

 

 

Bonzi: You mentioned using the command squad with volley guns in a fortification. How has that worked for you in the past?

 

 

Also what about running them naked? You are already paying for the AP3, do they have value as an anti MEQ unit?

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Not unless you have them close enough to benefit from FRF, SRF Orders. Otherwise their firepower output just isn't enough to really matter without hot dice.

 

The Volley Gun is stunted if you need your Scions to move a lot, which you do because their guns are such short range and they need to evade danger. If they were available in a stand-and-shoot unit, maybe, but tbh with a 24" range expect them to get hit by long-range fire if they ever manage to look something like a threat.

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Ok, I'm getting the feeling that maybe I'm better off using the scion bitz to make badass veterans than running them as scions, unless I go with Deep Striking melta. laugh.png

Scion boxes are a must for any AM army just for the bitz alone. Don't get the wrong impression, DS melta isn't the only way to run Scions. I also like DSing plasma scions over vets because the vets need a transport and are much slower to get where you need them. Same guns but different uses. I also love Taurox Primes, they give AM lists tiny speedy vehicles that pack a punch. The trick is that I run Scions out of the Militarum Tempestus book so my Taurox are super scoring. I start the vehicles on the board as a long range firebase/objective grabbers and drop the Scions via DS for close up precision work. It is an inversion of typical thinking to think of the troops and disposable and the transports as precious but it does pay dividends.

A large squad 10 Scions + volley guns makes fore a great firebase while you are waiting for your DSing units to come it. The trick is that they need the Command Squad to buff them up and the need some form of cover. An Aegis Defense line is a great addition to any AM/MT army. Tack of a quad gun and a coms relay and it synergies very well with your DSing units. The big trick is that DS style armies are foreign to a typical AM player, you need a mix of experience to feel secure doing it. For myself I played Blood Angel Descent of Angels list and I've run Chaos Daemons, both of which have taught me how to play high risk/high reward DS play with expensive or frail units.

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The hot shot volleyguns seem to be built for defense. I have not managed to run them to any success yet, but from now on they will man the quadgun. I think flamers are a pretty big waste. Paying points and a ap3 weapon for a regular flamer hurts.
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Ok, I'm getting the feeling that maybe I'm better off using the scion bitz to make badass veterans than running them as scions, unless I go with Deep Striking melta. laugh.png

Or, you could come over to the Renegades & Heretics side where Infantry Veterans CAN get Deep Strike, Hot Shot, Scout, Tank Hunters, etc.

I mean, I'm just saying.... laugh.png

Except that we have a slight problem with Random Leadership

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I think for now I may just use some of their parts for my vets when I get them, and then see what's left over and possibly get another box to make a squad with. 

 

Vash's guys look great, I was thinking of doing something similar only keeping them as vets instead of Scion's. Though the Hot shot isn't that much different from the stock rifle so it could be run as both. 

 

For some reason I really like the volley guns, so perhaps I'll try them one day in a bunker type squad. Since I play Space Marines, I'm familiar with Deep striking, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to much to me in a guard army. :p

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Despite my earlier comments - Hot-Shot Volley Guns actually have a niche when you're trying to hold a static position against MEQs. The Range, Str and Salvo 3 do make a difference.

 

If I were hiding Scions in a bunker (instead of using them for suicide Deep Strikes), I would probably take HSVGs.

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I think for now I may just use some of their parts for my vets when I get them, and then see what's left over and possibly get another box to make a squad with.

Vash's guys look great, I was thinking of doing something similar only keeping them as vets instead of Scion's. Though the Hot shot isn't that much different from the stock rifle so it could be run as both.

For some reason I really like the volley guns, so perhaps I'll try them one day in a bunker type squad. Since I play Space Marines, I'm familiar with Deep striking, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to much to me in a guard army. tongue.png

If you want to use the Hot shots as lasguns, cut of the extended barrel. Leaving you with the weapon case and rifle pipe, as the normal M36 lasgun.

And thanks for the kind comment :)

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I think for now I may just use some of their parts for my vets when I get them, and then see what's left over and possibly get another box to make a squad with.

Vash's guys look great, I was thinking of doing something similar only keeping them as vets instead of Scion's. Though the Hot shot isn't that much different from the stock rifle so it could be run as both.

For some reason I really like the volley guns, so perhaps I'll try them one day in a bunker type squad. Since I play Space Marines, I'm familiar with Deep striking, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to much to me in a guard army. tongue.png

If you want to use the Hot shots as lasguns, cut of the extended barrel. Leaving you with the weapon case and rifle pipe, as the normal M36 lasgun.

And thanks for the kind comment :)

And when you clip of the power cord, it looks almost exactly like a regular battery-clip.

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I'm somewhat torn about using them for the usual Deepstrike strategy, given that they pay full price for their special weapons (i.e. the points you spend on their hotshot lasguns included in their base cost is lost, making the special weapons effectively more expensive).

 

The main thing they have going for them is that they are cheap (100 points for a triple meltagun 5-man unit, if I recall correctly; codex isn't in front of me), but the Imperium does have some good choices for deepstriking, particularly from the power armored codices. You pay more for them, but you do end up getting some marines, that are also potentially superscoring (e.g. Drop Podding Grey Hunters or Blood Angels assault squad).

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I'm somewhat torn about using them for the usual Deepstrike strategy, given that they pay full price for their special weapons (i.e. the points you spend on their hotshot lasguns included in their base cost is lost, making the special weapons effectively more expensive).

 

The main thing they have going for them is that they are cheap (100 points for a triple meltagun 5-man unit, if I recall correctly; codex isn't in front of me), but the Imperium does have some good choices for deepstriking, particularly from the power armored codices. You pay more for them, but you do end up getting some marines, that are also potentially superscoring (e.g. Drop Podding Grey Hunters or Blood Angels assault squad).

Its only two special weapons per scions unit. 

But they have the advantage of not needing the space marine "per 5 men, one may buy 1 special weapon". 

 

90 pts for a 5 man unit with meltaguns isn't to shabby considering the damage they could do. 

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I'm somewhat torn about using them for the usual Deepstrike strategy, given that they pay full price for their special weapons (i.e. the points you spend on their hotshot lasguns included in their base cost is lost, making the special weapons effectively more expensive).

 

The main thing they have going for them is that they are cheap (100 points for a triple meltagun 5-man unit, if I recall correctly; codex isn't in front of me), but the Imperium does have some good choices for deepstriking, particularly from the power armored codices. You pay more for them, but you do end up getting some marines, that are also potentially superscoring (e.g. Drop Podding Grey Hunters or Blood Angels assault squad).

Its only two special weapons per scions unit. 

But they have the advantage of not needing the space marine "per 5 men, one may buy 1 special weapon". 

 

90 pts for a 5 man unit with meltaguns isn't to shabby considering the damage they could do. 

 

 

Plus you can also drop a 5-man MT Command Squad with 4 Melta (against something Super-Heavy) for just over half the cost of a 5-man Sternguard with 4 Combi-Melta and Drop Pod. If they're going to die anyway the Sternguard's extra tough won't matter.

 

This is especially apparent in Apoc when you need to kill your opponent's Super-Heavy right away but its amongst the rest of his 3K army.

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There are ways around the 1 per 5 marines. Sternguard and Command squads are an option but more expensive due to being veterans. You can also take a 5 man tac with a melta and combi melta on the sgt. Finally, if you are Black Templars like me, your Crusader squads can take a special and heavy in a 5 man unit because we don't care about the codex :lol:. 

 

However, that's tactics for another forum. But it is one of the reasons I kind of feel like I want to take them with hot shots and volley guns.  I can get deep striking special weapons with my marines so it doesn't feel as special. But having an entire unit of AP3 weapons is very different for me and I guess that's why they appealed to me. 

 

At the same time, I started this thread with the thought that my AM allies will be closer to 1000 points than not and so I thought I might end up creating a small secondary AM army that I could run solo with no Templar support. So in those cases, MT deep stiking could be more appealing :p

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