Dark Angels specia-lists and Unbound?

[BrotherLibrarianGiles]

Hi all!


I have been slowly working on my Dark Angels, beginning with a mostly Ravenwing force. I initially began with Sammael a couple of Attack Squads, a Command squad and a Drop Pod. Sammael is a rather expensive character and mostly brings a couple of wounds to a unit, a couple of small buffs to it, and of course allows for Attack Squads to be taken as Troops. This discussion could be extended to Belial, with adjustments to the thematic buffs (no scatter deep strike).

However, I have been wondering (and pondering) on the value of these two characters in the lists and the value of having Objective Secured. In the games (on the friendlier side) I have played objective secured rarely does matter. A victory point in every few games might be the difference. As such I have been inclined to take another character instead, that might support the rest if the army in a more flexible way and have something to do in more phases of the game - for me this is the psyker. This is something that I have found to work slightly better.

With elite, and especially fast, armies I see that objective secure might be a bit more valuable than (against?) slower armies with more models (i.e. Orks,...).

What are your opinions on the concept of Unbound and the benefits to the Dark Angels army, specialist or not, of going unbound by swapping out Sammael (or Belial)?


Kind regards,

BrotherLibrarianGiles

[Chaplain Lucifer]

For me objective secures is invaluable. Many times I secured an objective due to having the Objective secured rule, and sometimes I wish I had it. Sometimes it's not about losing one point.. it's about denying an easy point to the enemy.

But your milleage may vary... I prefer to not go Unbound because if I go, my opponent can also go and then some nastiness can show up... I can't cook up a nasty DA Unbound as good as someone can cook other Unbounds army so I stick to battleforged.

[aura_enchanted]

For me objective secures is invaluable. Many times I secured an objective due to having the Objective secured rule, and sometimes I wish I had it. Sometimes it's not about losing one point.. it's about denying an easy point to the enemy.

But your milleage may vary... I prefer to not go Unbound because if I go, my opponent can also go and then some nastiness can show up... I can't cook up a nasty DA Unbound as good as someone can cook other Unbounds army so I stick to battleforged.

Idk an army consisting of nothing but lra's, belial with th/ss, and dwk's sounds tasty

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You don't know, but I do. ;) Anything that can sound tasty in an unbound DA can be hammered of the table by other unbounds.. Like an army of battlewagons and meganobz.

[BrotherLibrarianGiles]

I agree that it can become a bit of a pandoras box. Another aspect is the narrative. While Sammael and Belial leads their companies in the original Dark Angels, I like an army led by my own Master Librarian Giles clad in tactical dreadnought armour or riding a bike as the need arises. Meaning that the ultimate unboundness comes from having another character leading the force. (Two characters below 1500 is a bit expensive.) Luckily, my group is not very competitive (so far) and the shenanigans are minimized or a result of that "Uuh, those models I want to paint aspect of collecting".

[SnakeChisler]

Unbound will work on a narrative campaign basis where you preset the mission types & have an open discussion with your opponent in how to progress and gave ongoing effects

 

Say mission is a raid on a tank depot or taking a fortification

 

On any other level its an excuse for some Nub to take the most op pile of skank possible, also come the apocalypse should be regards with the same suspicion

 

120 points gets you 2 scout squads so its not exactly a debilitating restriction and there's a number of allies in mini Dex's & slates that don't need troops or hq's, I've also found a couple of min tac squads in rhino,s razors putting in a good shift in maelstrom games

 

If you want more terminators just bump it to 10 & combat squad them & 2 full bike squads should be enough for most games , Sammael normally doesn't feature in my lists till I get to 1750+ like you said 1500 is tight points wise

[JJD]

I think unbound is a deep dark rabbit hole that most aren't willing to go down. I think snakechisler has some pretty sensible suggestions. I think this is where DA's really miss out on the land speeder vengeance but that's a discussion for another time.

[BrotherLibrarianGiles]

Thank you for your replies!

Considering the friendly atmosphere of my gaming group, going unbound would for me mean "forging the narrative" by using a specific character - a named character of my own creation. That is beside the point, however. I am not all too comfortable with the potential nastiness unbound can (?accidentally?) allow either. Yet, with all the different formations and allies and multiple detachments one can achieve a semi-unbound list at the cost of an additional character and a troop choice or two. But, yes, with the mutual gaming experience of both players in mind it can be used for something good. (But that one could do by simply agreeing before anyways.)

Let me rephrase/specify my question: I was hoping to get more perspectives on the value of Objective Secured (this in turn could be applied in a broader sense as there now is detachments and formations that forfeit this rule for other bonuses and advantages)? How valuable is the rule on a unit? And when weighed in a Ravenwing or Deathwing army?

EDITED: Grammar, choice of words.

[Prot]

What advantage would you get by NOT playing Battle Forged?

 

For Dark Angels, no matter the flavour, it is extremely easy to play Battle Forged. It's not like some codexes where you want to use your best units but have almost no chance to do so unless you go Unbound. Between 3 characters in our codex, it's perhaps our greatest advantage, because it sure isn't our codex units as a whole. But our codex units counting as super scoring? That's money.

 

Ravenwing are a great example. I've sacked a single biker as a troop. At the end of the turn, I can (and have) turbo'd him into an objective opposite some opponents elites or heavies to grab objective 'X', not just contest, but effectively 'stealing' something from my opponent. I can't tell you how many games I've won, or nearly won on that concept alone (speed + super scoring).

 

Playing devil's advocate, if you're not playing Dark Angels as Battle Forged, I'd probably look at a different codex all together. I'm sure you could use Unbound to much greater advantage with a different codex.

[Isiah]

What advantage would you get by NOT playing Battle Forged?

Well that depends who you ally with surely? There are plenty of great ways to fill out the best of what the DA has to offer with those from other Codexes. Grey Knights, Inquisition and the Astra Militarum are three that spring to my mind.

There's nothing wrong with unbound DA lists at all in my book. It just makes list-building doubly or trebly more difficult than it ever was .

Cheers

I

[Bryan Blaire]

Honestly, I expect to see the "Make RW Troops" and "Make DW Troops" concept going the way of the dodo for 7th Edition anyway (assuming they print a new 'Dex) or for 8th, if they continue to use the same game model for 8th. Instead, I think we will see Formations giving variable numbers of squads of the units from the -wings and different Formation benefits than Objective Secured.

 

We might even get a special Supplement similar to the Champions of Fenris one for Grimnar giving us some of the formations, etc.

[Isiah]

Yes I'd say that is all a distinct possibility.

 

I too can see both Ravenwing and Deathwing becoming a Troops option no matter what HQ is present - in the same manner that GK allow termies as Troops.

 

They might not benefit from certain unit buffs though.

 

Cheers

I

[Prot]

Honestly, I expect to see the "Make RW Troops" and "Make DW Troops" concept going the way of the dodo for 7th Edition anyway (assuming they print a new 'Dex) or for 8th, if they continue to use the same game model for 8th. Instead, I think we will see Formations giving variable numbers of squads of the units from the -wings and different Formation benefits than Objective Secured.

We might even get a special Supplement similar to the Champions of Fenris one for Grimnar giving us some of the formations, etc.

Honestly that would be the end of my DA days unless they fixed about 8 other things in the codex.

[Bryan Blaire]

Honestly that would be the end of my DA days unless they fixed about 8 other things in the codex.

Comment/question over here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296106-azrael-beliel-and-sammael-in-7th/?p=3846098

[Prot]

 

Honestly that would be the end of my DA days unless they fixed about 8 other things in the codex.

Comment/question over here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296106-azrael-beliel-and-sammael-in-7th/?p=3846098

 

 

Wow, quite a running convo over there. I don't know if I want to get into that conversation it looks kind of polarizing (<--- favorite word of the week for me, excuse me if I slip it into all of my new posts for the day!)

[SnakeChisler]

I can't see a new Codex any time soon in the next 2/3 years based on them getting their moneys worth from the Dark Vengeance box set.

 

When it does happen hopefully the landscape will have shifted.

 

Its not that I'm against them taking the Ravenwing out of Troop choices or the Deathwing for that matter its the recent push for 1 size fits all and neutering some of the feel and individuality.

 

You know full well with current trends if its a Ravenwing force it will have to have x bike squads + x land speeders + probably something else they regard as fluff necessary based on 1 persons interpretation of Ravenwing and same will go for Deathwing.

 

Best thing they could do is give a buff to single codex forces If no allies then you get an extra FA, Elite, HS slot, currently quite a few people are taking allies just to open out extra slots as once your over 1500 without our current HQ force openers we'd not be able to field much past a generic SM force. 

[shandwen]

There is one huge advantage of going unbound: cypher. Bring termies and characters, and they all become mini chaplains. Other armies get more, but its rather nice.