Stercus Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I like the Saxons/franks as a concept. They had the beginnings of a feudal system, but rather than a courtly honour code it was much more a system of oaths and blood pacts. While Vikings have been wolfed to death, I think a more regimented codex style approach to axe wielding dark age warriors might be really interesting. Think Charlemagne forging his empire from the dregs of shattered roman power or the riders of Rohan manning the walls of Helm's Deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Celtic? Space Wolves cover the celtic viking theme. Spartans? Cool but done aswell. How about Myrmidons? I honestly dont roll with aztecs and mayan. Ofc this is just my opinion. Talking about myrmidons, where can I get some greek bits? Spear shields helmets. We could always go for some indo celtic tribes. And use power falcatas :D That myrmidon thing gave me an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I like the Saxons/franks as a concept. They had the beginnings of a feudal system, but rather than a courtly honour code it was much more a system of oaths and blood pacts. While Vikings have been wolfed to death, I think a more regimented codex style approach to axe wielding dark age warriors might be really interesting. Think Charlemagne forging his empire from the dregs of shattered roman power or the riders of Rohan manning the walls of Helm's Deep. I think we could do something very interesting with a Saxon based army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 To be honest, the reason I suggested what I did is that I don't actually think there are a lot of chapters based on chivalry, nobility, or any of the positive aspects of the soldier-knight. We've got chapters that look like knights. We've got chapters that have semi-knightly practices or iconography. We don't really have any chapters that take on the ideal of the feudal lord, noblesse-oblige, or the virtues of fairness, mercy, and justice. That's fine - it's a grimdark setting - but I still think that would be neat. I also think that it would be a change of pace. Poorly stuffing a non-white, non-European culture into power armor has been done often enough that it, too, has become a trope in the setting. Diversifying the setting is all to the good, after all it's the future of mankind, not the future of northern Europe, but it's not the only way to make a chapter unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 If you wanted to go the Aztec route you could perhaps have a chapter that is codex compliant in organization , ten companies etc, but have the command structure based on prisoner capture / sacrifice. Have each company hunt for what they believe is the ideal  prisoner and have all ten sacrificed on some special event ( alignment with home-world and Terra?).  Positions in each company determined by how well brothers perform on the hunt and chapter master status given to the company that brings the greatest sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Thanks guys, we're getting some valuable inputs there ! We're exploring some pretty cool ideas and I think we'll be getting something interesting in the end, keep up ! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 If you wanted to go the Aztec route you could perhaps have a chapter that is codex compliant in organization , ten companies etc, but have the command structure based on prisoner capture / sacrifice. Have each company hunt for whthereby believe is the ideal prisoner and have all ten sacrificed on some special event ( alignment with home-world and Terra?). Positions in each company determined by how well brothers perform on the hunt and chapter master status given to the company that brings the greatest sacrifice. I thought we could have promotions based off how many prisoners the marine had captured. Having a rotating chapter master position doesn't strike me as very codex compliant. but yes only worthy foes would be taken as prisoners for sacrifice. Sacrificing unworthy foes would be an insult to the emperor. This could also lead to the chapter avoiding "unworthy" foes as they won't get any good sacrifices out of it, which could impact their relationship with the rest of the Imperium. Â After all what is more satisfying, killing that Eldar farseer who you have been hunting for years or capturing him, chaining him town old stone alter and having his last sight be your chaplain ripping his still beating heart from his chest. Dying on the battlefield simply means you lost one fight, being captured and sacrificed is a sign of total defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sacrifices go a bit into chaos route no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sacrifices go a bit into chaos route no? Â A lot of loyal chapters do things that are a bit... Chaosy. I could easily see that being an interesting wrinkle to the chapter we invent here, rather than immediate damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sacrifices go a bit into chaos route no? It may be the start of a slippery slope. But one could argue that death cults, which seem perfectly acceptable to the inquisition, have a very khorne feel to them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sacrifices go a bit into chaos route no? But... but... it's... FOR THE EMPRAH!!!! Â It could be a good angle for the chapter, inquisitors would be all over that looking for the taint of heresy. It could earn the chapter a great many enemies due to the seemingly heretical natiure of the chapter's beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'd say it would depend on which inquisitor you ask and how popular they are / how much support they have with inquisitorial / church and guard officials etc. Â If they're unpopular for abandoning campaigns to go hunt for a worthy sacrifice then they'd be less likely to have supportive allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'd say it would depend on which inquisitor you ask and how popular they are / how much support they have with inquisitorial / church and guard officials etc. Â If they're unpopular for abandoning campaigns to go hunt for a worthy sacrifice then they'd be less likely to have supportive allies. I doubt they would be terribly open about their sacrificing practices. So someone would likely already want a reason to look into the chapter to find out. Â I didn't see it as much abandoning campaigns as just never show up to participate if they feel the foe is unworthy. Thus leading to a reputation as unreliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 You've also got to decide what foes are worthy of sacrifice: Rebel imperial governor? Sure. Renegade astartes? Absolutely. Xenos witch? Not even human. Just torch their twitching corpse on the battlefield. It all depends on the criteria and viewpoint of the chapter. Â On a similar note, the Saxon words for 'foreigner' and 'slave' were interchangeable: 'wealas' which in modern English gives us 'welsh' which probably explains why the celts who share our fair island prefer the Celtic 'Cymraeg' Can't beat a bit of rampant xenophobia.... It's just what the 41st millennium needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 The sacrifice bit could also be more ceremonial than litteral. For instance, instead of taking it litterally, we could see it as a staged public execution in the name of the Emperor and the name of the Imperium. It's a kind of offering as well, and it helps send a clear message of the strength of the Imperium, and the more worth or impressive the captured is, the greater the propaganda ! Alternatively, the more captives taken and executed in the Aztec empire, the better the celebration in the city. Wikipedia says that during a war with a neighboring empire, the Aztecs sacrificed 80 400 prisoners of war in just 4 days in order to reconsecrate the temple. Â I feel that would work well with the ideals of the Imperium, the Inquisition and the management of planets and systems. The sacrifices don't seem part of dark rituals, rather more as a statement of power. And besides, instead of killing them on the battlefield, they kill their enemies back home. In addition, there's no need to have crude methods of killing like ripping the hearts out of the enemies, which feel very Chaosy, alternative and "cleaner" methods of dispensing death can be found too. With that in mind, they would not seem like blood hungry bad guys, but rather a more brutal version of Maccrage with executions as a way to bolster the population's morale, which fit well with their origins as Ultramarines successors ! Â The Aztecs also were a tribute empire with many Eagle motives, which kind of fit the Imperium's iconography as well. Â I also really like the saxon/frank idea, how would you guys explore it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Here's a thought - and I love these, ideas that limit a chapter rather than just adding to them - what if they have no dreadnoughts, because whenever a marine is badly wounded enough to warrant dreadnought conversion, he willingly gives himself up as a sacrifice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Two hearts for the price of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 With the idea of a Frankish/Saxon chapter, from what I can gather of their military organisation, it started out as highly mobile and flexible infantry. The shieldwall tactic was prevalent and very effective against more mobile foes, who were left to break against the shields while flanking counter attacks by lighter troops picked apart their rear ranks. As centuries wore on, cavalry was incorporated and developed into the chivalrous knights of later eras. In literature, the early Franks of Clovis and Charlemagne as well as the Saxons that invaded and conquered Britain after the departure of Rome were Tolkien's inspiration for the kingdom of Rohan. Â I quite like the idea of translating this into a force of heavy infantry supported by fast moving, if fragile elements. Not so much hammer and anvil as a very large knife and fork: the heavy troops pin the enemy in place while the faster elements slice them apart bit by bit. Â Departing from military tactics, the Saxons in particular utilised art forms that could make very effective decoration on astartes armour. They are most famous for intricate metalwork often in woven patterns and the depiction of horses and other animals is widely used and heavily stylised. Muted colour palettes were popular, with greens and blues being offset with deep reds as a sign of status. Â For a political background, the Saxons and Franks opted for a system whereby the leader was most often elected from the upper ranks by a council of his peers. While in practice kingdoms were often handed down in families, this was done by the consent of the lords, not as a matter of course. Unfit candidates were frequently sidelined or deposed if a better option was agreed upon. In the Frankish tradition, holdings were often split between heirs to avoid amassing too much power in a single figure. The idea of having a kind of chapter council perhaps composed of the company captains, chaplains and librarius that elect a leader, perhaps for a fixed period seems interesting. To maintain support, the lords of these peoples were forced to rely on blood-debts and family allegiances, regulated by a system of sworn oaths and mutual respect. This sounds to me very compatible with the ideas of a chapter with a strong honour code and martial discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Is there any possibility that we could actually use a mix of both ideas? Take the drive to capture prisoners and publicly execute them and always seeking worthy foes to fight from the Aztec and combine it with some of the themes from the Saxons/ Franks like the council, a focus on heavy infantry and mobile units working together. Or are we better to pick one of the two options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta galactosidase Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The sacrifice bit could also be more ceremonial than litteral. For instance, instead of taking it litterally, we could see it as a staged public execution in the name of the Emperor and the name of the Imperium. It's a kind of offering as well, and it helps send a clear message of the strength of the Imperium, and the more worth or impressive the captured is, the greater the propaganda ! Alternatively, the more captives taken and executed in the Aztec empire, the better the celebration in the city. Wikipedia says that during a war with a neighboring empire, the Aztecs sacrificed 80 400 prisoners of war in just 4 days in order to reconsecrate the temple. Â I feel that would work well with the ideals of the Imperium, the Inquisition and the management of planets and systems. The sacrifices don't seem part of dark rituals, rather more as a statement of power. And besides, instead of killing them on the battlefield, they kill their enemies back home. In addition, there's no need to have crude methods of killing like ripping the hearts out of the enemies, which feel very Chaosy, alternative and "cleaner" methods of dispensing death can be found too. With that in mind, they would not seem like blood hungry bad guys, but rather a more brutal version of Maccrage with executions as a way to bolster the population's morale, which fit well with their origins as Ultramarines successors ! Â The Aztecs also were a tribute empire with many Eagle motives, which kind of fit the Imperium's iconography as well. Â I also really like the saxon/frank idea, how would you guys explore it ? It can be phrased as a sacrificed but used as an execution. There is nothing strange about ritual barbarism - there are civilians who build a highway from their own skulls, death cults who shed blood for the Emperor, and many marine rituals of same. The Chapter in question could very easily include the public in an explicitly or ostensibly ritual sacrifice to the Emperor. Â Â For a political background, the Saxons and Franks opted for a system whereby the leader was most often elected from the upper ranks by a council of his peers. While in practice kingdoms were often handed down in families, this was done by the consent of the lords, not as a matter of course. Unfit candidates were frequently sidelined or deposed if a better option was agreed upon. In the Frankish tradition, holdings were often split between heirs to avoid amassing too much power in a single figure. The idea of having a kind of chapter council perhaps composed of the company captains, chaplains and librarius that elect a leader, perhaps for a fixed period seems interesting. To maintain support, the lords of these peoples were forced to rely on blood-debts and family allegiances, regulated by a system of sworn oaths and mutual respect. This sounds to me very compatible with the ideas of a chapter with a strong honour code and martial discipline. My understanding of a codex company is that it has a continuous existence (primarily expressed by heraldry and standard) and that a captain is appointed over it by the chapter headquarters (Uriel Ventris aside), so the captain is less "in" the company than he is "over" it. You can see this in the idea that a company is ten squads of ten marines, and the captain is not part of those squads. This is in contrast to Space Wolves for whom the Wolf Lords are selected exclusively from the company and by the company as well, with only some involvement from the Great Wolf. Â The bearing that this has on what you are talking about is that the comparison to frankish saxon and carolingian feudalism is that the lords are "from" or "of" their respective communities, and not "over" them. That doesn't have to matter, but I'm mentioning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 It can be phrased as a sacrificed but used as an execution. There is nothing strange about ritual barbarism - there are civilians who build a highway from their own skulls, death cults who shed blood for the Emperor, and many marine rituals of same. The Chapter in question could very easily include the public in an explicitly or ostensibly ritual sacrifice to the Emperor. That makes sense, as long as the offering is very "clean" and not too ritualistic. Otherwise I feel we're going borderline Chaotic (with dedicated killings and desecration). My understanding of a codex company is that it has a continuous existence (primarily expressed by heraldry and standard) and that a captain is appointed over it by the chapter headquarters (Uriel Ventris aside), so the captain is less "in" the company than he is "over" it. You can see this in the idea that a company is ten squads of ten marines, and the captain is not part of those squads. This is in contrast to Space Wolves for whom the Wolf Lords are selected exclusively from the company and by the company as well, with only some involvement from the Great Wolf. The bearing that this has on what you are talking about is that the comparison to frankish saxon and carolingian feudalism is that the lords are "from" or "of" their respective communities, and not "over" them. That doesn't have to matter, but I'm mentioning it. On the other hand, I feel that this is very Codex-like : it's the upper ranking members who appoint the leader rather than in the Wolves were he is "elected" by his company. I'm not sure that is the proper term, but you get my meaning I imagine ______________ EDIT : As a side note, the first deadline is approchaing soon, let's flesh it out ! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercus Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Is there any possibility that we could actually use a mix of both ideas? Take the drive to capture prisoners and publicly execute them and always seeking worthy foes to fight from the Aztec and combine it with some of the themes from the Saxons/ Franks like the council, a focus on heavy infantry and mobile units working together. Or are we better to pick one of the two options? I think the two might mesh pretty well. The Saxons and franks both respected martial skill and so the desire to pit oneself against ever stronger and more worthy foes is certainly easily used. Public execution in the dark ages was often in the form of making an example of an enemy or criminal. Once the powerful foe has been beaten, their defeat is made absolute through them being utterly helpless as they are slain. I would suggest overtly barbaric means of execution would make for a more difficult combination, purely because desecration of a body would not tie in with the idea of holding the victim in esteem, which as I read it is kind of the point of executing the most worthy. Also, eating hearts and drinking blood is all a bit chaos-y. I think the Aztec style prisoner capturing would work well in combination with the Saxon shieldwalls, you could even create a special formation with riot shields and power mauls to surround and bring down powerful characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 A mix of the two might work well indeed ! Besides, I think it will create more character than just trying to copy paste a RL culture into the 40k universe ! We could pick the Aztecs for the philosophy and the visual motives and the Franks for the field tactics. Â As far as I know, I'm not sure Aztecs did make heavy use of cavalry, while it could work with the Franks. It seems pretty Codex Adherent to me : Tactical squads and Devastators as the main fighting line, Assault squads as light cavalry and Bike squadrons as Heavy Cavalry. Capturing as many ennemies as they can for ritual executions back in their home system in name of the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta galactosidase Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well they didn't have horses. Â I'd like to talk about that, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Why not goths or vandals? And no im not talking about nowadays teenagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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