Prot Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Sorry for the bad play on words but this is one of my favorite corners of the BnC and I just thought I would follow up on a thought I've been having lately. A while ago I started a thread that was actually quite informative about the differences between Codex Astartes and the Dark Angels. We had a lot of back and forth but of course the majority seemed to honestly believe the Codex Marines have it all. Well at the risk of getting set on fire, I'm going to tell you I strongly believe that isn't true. But before you douse me in gasoline and set my hair on fire, let me explain some caveats. - Yes, the DA codex is largely overpriced in some key factors. - Yes, some units are complete duds. A few key units in fact are nearly useless. - Yes there is some completely irrelevant (nonsensical) wargear and unit rules. - I say this purely as a Maelstrom player as I feel it forces far more strategy than sitting in a corner pew pewing. Now that being said, I'm here to defend the 1st Legion. Here are some items I consider facts to offset the above: - Force Org manipulation MAY have a price in Dark Angels, however it is quite a powerful feature in Maelstrom. - Vanilla Marines suffer extremely similar losses to the top teir competitive xenos opponents. - The force multiplier factor of the Dark Angel HQ's are actually quite important, and relevant compared to the Codex Astartes. Can D.A. make a generic. omnipotent HQ like the "Captain America" build? No, but imho there may not be a force multiplier in power armour more important than Azrael. Sure Tigurius might be the best cheap named HQ in any PA book, however, DA have access to a very similar Libby and force org manipulation. I say this because I decided after being sucked into DA for a while, and getting tired of their 'let's hunt the lost' never-ending agenda, I have been trying various chapaters, and tactcs including, but not limited to Ultra's. And you bet there is an advantage to Grav-centurions, Sternguard, Stormtalons, etc, etc, but you have to balance the good stuff in the DA codex. It's not nearly as obvious. After playing several games I honestly feel I'm perhaps not quite as comfortable with vanilla marines as I am with my DA but I gotta say, I honestly believe the bottom line is a coin flip. I am halfway through collecting a pure Codex Astartes chapter and I was in the store today and instead of picking up what I was there for...I *almost* bought a DA expansion box set with a fond association to most of the units on its cover (save the Nephifail.) I could go on, I'm sure I'll get disagreements, but for a long time I watched, and responded to some of the negative detractors of the DA codex. Does the DA codex need an update? Severly, the answer is a resounding yes. But I'll tell you one thing, I was whoopin'... yes, out right whoopin' some opponents that I can barely get by, or even lose to as a vanilla marine.... something to think about for those of you that think the grass is greener. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 ++Breaks out the gasoline and Zippo++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Sssshhhhh. They'll hear you... 95 points for a fully kitted Pread. Mortis dreads. Termies and bikes as troops. If only the LSV wasnt armor 10... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I always thought the grass is not greener but it definately has a different shade of green. DA has strongand weak points as C:SMhas stroong and weak points and you can't do the same army with both and expect the same results.. each has to be played to it's strenghts. The FAQ changed nothing despite berfing what we were already were expecting to be nerfed. so business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yea playing the Codex Astartes feels surprisingly different. You not only construct your lists entirely different, but they play out quite a bit differently as well. Funny though, I was easily as if not more successfull with my DA than my Ultra's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yay :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 My steers beg to differ Prot mate; they tell me that the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side. Even once they get there :P Stop being a GeeDub fanboy and come back to join us haterz in haterzland ;) But seriously, I have done ok against most lists I have faced in 7th, I haven't faced the really cheesemonger lists on the interwebz but my opponents still field the toughest units in their respective dexes like Riptides etc they just don't always cheese up their combos preferring to retain a little dignity. BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ania Redfang Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Sssshhhhh. They'll hear you... 95 points for a fully kitted Pread. Mortis dreads. Termies and bikes as troops. If only the LSV wasnt armor 10... what is this 95 point predator of which you speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 ++Breaks out the gasoline and Zippo++ Seems there may be hope for you yet, Angel. I'll get the stakes and marshmallows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 But seriously, I have done ok against most lists I have faced in 7th, I haven't faced the really cheesemonger lists on the interwebz but my opponents still field the toughest units in their respective dexes like Riptides etc they just don't always cheese up their combos preferring to retain a little dignity. BS Here's the thing... actually if you look at my series of batreps once I got bored of a year or so of Ravenwing, for 7th I broke out my take on an unorthodox list for use in Maelstrom against all comers... my Az-zeke Bomb lists. People who read those asked how I'm doing it because I faced some tough (though not broken) 7th edition lists, but the reality is there are very good angels to work in the codex. For instance, I won't play Codex Astartes Terminators now... I can't. Do I think Terminators are still over priced? Yes they all are, as we've pointed out a zillion times the plethora of AP2 (even in templates) is absurd. However, given the choice I'll take Deathwing + Belial = Precision Deep Strike (1 unit) and Split Fire (every loyal terminator in the game really should have this to keep special weaps relevant) and Twin Linking on Deep Strike. Those are the rules that spoil me for Deathwing. The rest is kinda 'meh' in my experience (5 toughness, etc). Second example: Once you go Black Knight, you won't go White Scar. I know White Scars have ridiculously cheap advantages but one squad of Black Knights with their beloved Plasma Talons, Corvus Hammers and Grenades make me forget all about the overcosted bikes in the rest of the army. I'm not saying there aren't problems... there are many, but compared to Codex Astartes, I STILL very much prefer many D.A. units. Although right now with my Ultra's I'm playing 3-4 Tactical squads a game and you'll never see me do that with DA. I play 2 flyers every game... glass cannons; you'll never see me do that (even once!) with Dark Angels. ++Breaks out the gasoline and Zippo++ Seems there may be hope for you yet, Angel. I'll get the stakes and marshmallows. You guys are the devil! My friends would KILL me if I swapped back again. I just spent like... 400 bucks getting into Ultra. Do I miss my Az-zeke bomb lists, Belial and the funky Knights? Heck yea. But I'd be lying if I didn't tell you how fun it is to run 3 Centurions with Tigurius, and how ridiculously effective a Thunderfire is.... But still I confess I painted my buttocks off with my DA and don't have the same gas for Ultra's. The HH fluff is far better (to me) for Ultra over DA, and I get a lot of motivation from the fiction. But still I do love trying to make the Dark Angels work in overwhelming circumstances. I just finished an Ultra Stormtalon (painted) and it looks great, but I can't touch my Pods yet... just in case. lol But seriously, my friends would kill me. Just saying the codex, imho, is not amongst the strongest, but all marines have an uphill battle in 7th, but I'd still take DA to hell and back and find a way to brag about it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Sssshhhhh. They'll hear you... 95 points for a fully kitted Pread. Mortis dreads. Termies and bikes as troops. If only the LSV wasnt armor 10... what is this 95 point predator of which you speak? Okay, so it isnt "fully kitted" but a Pread D with HB sponsons is good against hordes. An even 100 gets you a storm bolter as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I have a lot of success with my Angels...but I suppose that comes from playing a very fluffy meta as opposed to 'what makes you win' for the majority of games I choose to play. For example, the main Eldar player I play against (my brother), doesn't run uber competitive lists - no wraithknights - as he considers using large numbers of wraith to be anathema to the background of the Eldar - who don't like using their dead brothers/sisters. Or min-maxing wave serpents as thats just not in the Eldar background as a strategy they adopt. He prefers synergy of several units and playing more like an Eldar than a Tournament Winner. Which evens the playing field somewhat. When someone plays to the background, you see balance begin to return to the game. Sure, it might be a handicap for certain armies, but if everyone handicaps themselves to it, then it makes it the whole game meta more interesting. Which brings my Greenwing back into their forte as well, even my standard Marines are doing better. And even when I face down more competitive lists I generally do reasonably well; having faced players who prefer to keep their tanks alive than using them aggressively, I find that someone sacrificing their Serpent Shield opens them up to my plethora of Heavy Weapons which reap a toll on their armour ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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