MindOfMetal Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Well it's mentioned that knights can only be taken in a legion list as an allied army. It was also mentioned that Lords of War can only be taken "either from the specific army list for the primary detachment or from an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet." The obsidian knight is an Apocalypse datasheet. I was asking if it was a valid option for those people who wanted to take a knight as part of their legion army without having to ally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 What about taking the obsidian knight? It's an apocalypse datasheet in Warzone Damocles, so would it be allowed under the Lord of War selection process as it comes under the second part of "either from the specific army list for the primary detachment or from an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet." No, as that doesn't fall under the allowed list sources from which Super Heavy vehicles can be chosen, which are outlined in this post. If you feel that one rule contradicts the other, then feel free to disagree. The Heresy rules are so poorly written it's as if they were high on pine sap when writing them; look at the rules for Rites of War; only 1 can be chosen per army, and it only affects the Primary detachment. But Allied forces may use different ones because the rules do not carry over. Make sense of them eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindOfMetal Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The issue I have is what is deemed an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet-thats the part that is fuzzy for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 What about taking the obsidian knight? It's an apocalypse datasheet in Warzone Damocles, so would it be allowed under the Lord of War selection process as it comes under the second part of "either from the specific army list for the primary detachment or from an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet." only if you paint your knight as obsidian knight, otherwise no (and the obsidian knight is a 40k special character on the other hand ... so generally no oO) ... btw, "named knight"s are mentioned in the questoris knight army list as elite choices .... The issue I have is what is deemed an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet-thats the part that is fuzzy for me. this rule is only legit if the unit hasn't a 30k counterpart ... EDIT: see HH book 4, pg. 296 "legendary freeblade" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The issue I have is what is deemed an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet-thats the part that is fuzzy for me. It's fuzzy for everyone, but in a permissive ruleset, which lets you do things by outright permission, the argument otherwise relies on pretty much saying "it doesn't say I can't" just doesn't wash from a "legality" stand point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazarak Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 You know, I find this post interesting. In 30k, darned near everything is done by design. I think Alan Bligh and his team have a pretty clear idea of how they want 30k to be played. It sure seems to me that they want lots of guys on the table, looking across from one another, and the games, in general, to play out in that kind of way. For example, drop pods are simply not as feasible in 30k as they are in 40k. The same with the way the rules reward larger squads. Along those lines, I don't think FW wants Knights to be quite so easy to throw in a 30k legion list. I mean, they expressly didn't do it even when 40k is obviously bent in that direction. Now I know that everyone can say 'it's not fluffy', but Alan writes the fluff in this era, he really could have done anything he wanted to. I really think he has a plan in mind for how these games should play and he's sticking to it. Its quite different than 40k where everyone has their collective hands in the pot. Here, this subset of the rules is pretty much the brain child of one guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Now I know that everyone can say 'it's not fluffy', but Alan writes the fluff in this era, he really could have done anything he wanted to. I really think he has a plan in mind for how these games should play and he's sticking to it. Its quite different than 40k where everyone has their collective hands in the pot. Here, this subset of the rules is pretty much the brain child of one guy. it's not fluffy to have just one knight in a legion force .... they operate in households, have their own support units and support taghmata/mechanicum forces in generell .... yes, there are some freeblades, but they are a minority in 30k .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazarak Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Atia, It's not fluffy, because it's written that way. From the beginning in HH1. This stuff really didn't exist before Alan and the team put pen to paper. Sure, the broad strokes were there with Istvaan, calth, and the siege of terra, but by and large, this is all new stuff written basically by one guy. You say it's not fluffy, my opinion is that I think that the design team at FW decided how they wanted HH games to play, and wrote the fluff around that. That's not something you could have done with 40k, but the HH/30k is basically a one guy show, and started from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Atia, It's not fluffy, because it's written that way. From the beginning in HH1. This stuff really didn't exist before Alan and the team put pen to paper. Sure, the broad strokes were there with Istvaan, calth, and the siege of terra, but by and large, this is all new stuff written basically by one guy. You say it's not fluffy, my opinion is that I think that the design team at FW decided how they wanted HH games to play, and wrote the fluff around that. That's not something you could have done with 40k, but the HH/30k is basically a one guy show, and started from scratch. knights and their households were fluff since rogue trader/epic ..... they NEVER fought alone then ... (--> freeblades are new fluff from GW, as a bad excuse for only one Knight in your army). and no ... the HH was first enlarged by the BL with their novels we had 20+ novels (written by different authors ...) before the release of HH: Betrayal ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Teeth Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Freeblades make no sense to me... how does it travel from world to world? Where does the fuel for his Knight come from? Food? Water? Any logic at all? Everything about Knights screams support structures and baggage trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grazzlebaz Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Freeblades make no sense to me... how does it travel from world to world? Where does the fuel for his Knight come from? Food? Water? Any logic at all? Everything about Knights screams support structures and baggage trains. Freeblades are just knights that are not dedicated to a house. They still fight for the imperium (some do) so they hitch a ride with whatever chapter/regiment needs them. They loose many benefits from not being allied to a house but an imperial knight is still a machine to be reckoned with. it's not fluffy to have just one knight in a legion force .... they operate in households, have their own support units and support taghmata/mechanicum forces in generell .... yes, there are some freeblades, but they are a minority in 30k .... This makes sense in games terms as well, seeing that a legion would need 2+ knights in order to ally with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 and no ... the HH was first enlarged by the BL with their novels we had 20+ novels (written by different authors ...) before the release of HH: Betrayal Alan Merrett's Visions series was first, two years before Horus Rising. And as Head of IP, anything published since had to get past him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Pot kettle semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 So I'm in a group that will require proof when I bring this up, personally I think using 1 knight as a low choice is a bit stupid and doesn't fit at all, and essentially it's trying to plug gaps for poor generalship as you obviously can't comnand your legion properly if you require a single knight to support! Is it in conquest it stated this? I know that in a book it says you can use them until a hh entry has become available, and now they are, so require minimum 1 hq, 1 troops as an ally, but I can't remember which one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 No where does it state that you CANT, its just it doesnt state that you CAN. Honestly if your gaming group is going to get defensive or upset about it then I wouldnt bother trying to convince them, its not worth the grief. Just they should be aware that they shouldnt get used to it, because most events are not allowing it (in fact some dont even allow Allied Knights). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 So I'm in a group that will require proof when I bring this up, personally I think using 1 knight as a low choice is a bit stupid and doesn't fit at all, and essentially it's trying to plug gaps for poor generalship as you obviously can't comnand your legion properly if you require a single knight to support! Is it in conquest it stated this? I know that in a book it says you can use them until a hh entry has become available, and now they are, so require minimum 1 hq, 1 troops as an ally, but I can't remember which one! Allied detachments require 1HQ and 1Troop. You can take Knights as an allied detachment. If they are primary, you can take them in the Knight Crusade List which has different rules for selecting Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Can they still be taken as a low choice for a legion army nowadays? I don't think so, I now iv read it, is it conquest of an earlier boom where it states that it must be an allied detachment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 No mention of it. So no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 It's the part that says things can be taken in an army until a heresy version is released, im sure I read it, either that or I have a fantastical imagination, or dreamt it :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 It's the part that says things can be taken in an army until a heresy version is released, im sure I read it, either that or I have a fantastical imagination, or dreamt it :-) Page 9 of LACAL/Page 163 of Massacre for the "if it doesn't have a Heresy equivalent you can field it with these rules." However, these permit access to superheavies/flyers from Imperial Armor books, not from the Knight Codex. The other way people try to shoehorn Knights into Legion lists is by the phrasing "...or an appropriate Apocalypse datasheet" under the War Machine Detachment LoW description. Hesh and Atia cover above why none of the Knight datasheets are "appropriate." Solar Auxilia can take Knights as LoW because they have a rule that specifically permits it. Legions do not, and can only ally them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 That's the one, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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