New HH 7th Ed FAQ

[PastelAvenger]

Probably typical FW not having a clue. I'd have thought it would be in reference to things like Rites of War being able to reference 'Dreadnought Talons', as in 'Dreadnought Talons may take Dreadnought Drop Pods in a 1:1 ratio as dedicated transports; if one Dreadnought has a Dedicated Transport, all must take one.' Each talon (including dedicated transports) is considered a single unit for the purposes of Deployment, Drop Pod Assault and when rolling for reserves.'

 

But of course, that doesn't work, as Deredeo, C-Mortis, and maybe Leviathan's are not included within that, nor does combining the unit when deploying via something like a Non Dedicated Transports like Thunderhawks etc.

There is no rule that allows you to take Multiple Dreads in drops in a single FOC orhave I misread your post?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Orbital Assault. 

[Slips]

Yep.

 

Orbital Assault would Technically allow you to take Dreadnought Talons of 2-3 Dreads and give them all pods.

 

"Legion Dreadnoughts may take a Dreadnought Drop Pod in a 1:1 Ratio and Contemptors may take a Dreadclaw Drop Pods as Dedicated Transports in a 1:1 Ratio."

 

Pg15 LA:CAL.

 

So you could argue that since these are Legion Drop Pods and Dreadclaw Drop Pods respectively instead of Legion Dreadnought Drop Pods as dedicated transports that they technically bypass the "Dedicated Transport" limitation found on the Dreadnought Pages.

 

I'm also, in general, inclined to allow this since Orbital Assault Armies also lose out a lot in terms of heavy firepower due to the limitations present.

[PastelAvenger]

I emailed FW about this, orbital assault just gives a Talon access to the Dreadclaw it doesn't remove the restriction put in place by the Dreadnought Drop Pod.

 

Here's what I sent

 

Good evening

 

I was wondering if you could clear up something regarding the Orbital Assault Rite of War for Horus Heresy.

 

If a Contemptor Dreadnought Talon takes Deadclaws as their dedicated transport are they still limited to one Contemptor Dreadnought per Talon as per Dreadnought Drop Pod rules

 

Or

 

Does taking the Rite of War Oribtal Assault allow you to take a Dreadclaw per Contemptor Dreadnought in the Talon

 

i.e A Talon of 3 Contemptor Dreadnoughts take 3 Dreadclaws as dedicated transports per 1 elite slot under the Oribital Assault Rite of War.

 

Thank you

 

Phil

 

And here's my reply

 

Hi Phil,

Thank you for your email. The answer to your question is -

 

1. If a Contemptor Dreadnought Talon takes Deadclaws as their dedicated transport they are still limited to one Contemptor Dreadnought per Talon as per Dreadnought Drop Pod rules

 

 

How would you rate my reply?

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If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

 

 

Regards,

Forge World

 

Sorry guys and gals but if you want to take multiple Dreadnoughts in Orbital Assault it is one per FOC.

[Hesh Kadesh]

That's hardly the most comprehensive of answers. There is no reference to Orbital Assault in it. And FW have the most unreliable record of email rules answerers, ranging from some believing that miraculously as of the change of edition, Breachers gained the ability to blind people with grenades that come as a part of the breacher shield (what?), and in general have spent the last few months incapable of answering and told me to houserule.

 

Its worth bearing in mind, but considering that 1:1 ratio doesn't actually mean what his answer says, i'm much less likely to take the answer of a minimum wage call centre handler who gets paid on the basis of emails answered, rather than emails answered correctly.

[PastelAvenger]

It answers it perfectly. There is no need for the reply to mention Orbital Assault again as I have already set the premise.

 

I know of 2 other people that emailed FW and got the same answer. I have read the Orbital Assault ruling on Dreadclaws and nothing mentions that it removes the restrictions for taking a dedicated transport and manipulation of FOC.

[Hesh Kadesh]

There would be no need to mention 1:1 ratio if it was not 1 DT per Dreadnought in the talon. And as ever, why was it not clarified within the FAQ?

 

I have read the Orbital Assault rule and the 1:1 ratio rule means that as long as you maintain that 1:1 ratio, you are legal.

[PastelAvenger]

Yeah you can only put 1 Dreadnought in 1 pod, since it's a different type of pod they are informing you how to use it. Nothing removes the FOC inhibitor. They haven't Faq'ed because FW feel it's clear which I will admit it isn't.

[Terminus]

That's not what 1:1 ratio means. It cannot mean just 1 dreadnought in 1 pod, it means one dreadnaught per one pod.

[Slips]

Which means if you have 3 Dreads in a Talon in 3 Pods, you're respecting that 1:1 Ratio.

 

Not respecting the ratio would be 2 Dreads in a Talon and 1 Pod; Ie: 2:1

 

Which is why the arguement is still there for being able to take a 3 Dread Talon in Pods that are specified as now being Dedicated Transports in the RoW (Ie Dreadclaw for Contemptors) Is still valid.

 

I certainly wouldnt hold it against someone running Orbtial Assault to do this since they're already pretty hamstrung by being forced to Pod In / Deepstrike.

[PastelAvenger]

That's not what 1:1 ratio means. It cannot mean just 1 dreadnought in 1 pod, it means one dreadnaught per one pod.

You've said the same thing twice so I'm a little unsure what you actually mean.

 

1 Dreadnought per one pod is the same as one Dreadnought in one pod. Worded slightly different but both satisfy the ratio.

 

I suppose we will have to wait for the FAQ but I would encourage people to pay 1 Dreadnought per 1 drop pod per slot even in Orbital Assault.

[Terminus]

Please look up the definition of RATIO, which is signified by the colon in 1:1.  It does not restrict the quantity, just that the number of both must be the same.

 

One dreadnought in one pod maintains a 1:1 ratio, but there is no need at all to even mention a ratio if you're limited to 1 in the first place.  If mommy tells little Timmy he can only have one cookie with his glass of milk, she doesn't say you can have one cookie per glass of milk, because you know that fat little bastard will chug the whole gallon and eat the whole box. :P

 

Let us be little Timmy. Give us the damn cookies, mom. Or we'll tell dad we saw you kissing Santa Claus.

 

http://youtu.be/T4BfspPCjqA

[Lysere]

You can't really put a unit of dreadnoughts in seperate pods because then they are no longer together, therefore illegal deployment. Yeah you could buy them all pods but pods are limited to one dreadnought per pod and they must be in the same transport, so where are you putting them?

[PastelAvenger]

Please look up the definition of RATIO, which is signified by the colon in 1:1. It does not restrict the quantity, just that the number of both must be the same.

 

One dreadnought in one pod maintains a 1:1 ratio, but there is no need at all to even mention a ratio if you're limited to 1 in the first place. If mommy tells little Timmy he can only have one cookie with his glass of milk, she doesn't say you can have one cookie per glass of milk, because you know that fat little bastard will chug the whole gallon and eat the whole box. :P

 

Let us be little Timmy. Give us the damn cookies, mom. Or we'll tell dad we saw you kissing Santa Claus.

 

http://youtu.be/T4BfspPCjqA

Wow you are probably the most arrogant, condescending arsehole I have ever met on this forum. I hope your keyboard Warrior skills prove useful in your day to day life.

 

The way I read your post the ratio was still being satisfied thank you fit clearing that up there was no need to be a dick about it at the same time.

[Slips]

=] Use the Report Button in the event that you find Board-Questionable Material so that Mods can be alerted to it and action taken against it [=

 

>:-(

[Hesh Kadesh]

You can't really put a unit of dreadnoughts in seperate pods because then they are no longer together, therefore illegal deployment. Yeah you could buy them all pods but pods are limited to one dreadnought per pod and they must be in the same transport, so where are you putting them?

They're not a vehicle squadron. The questions regarding reserves are especially numpty, as well. What happens if you reserve all 3, and then only part of the talon passes their reserve roll? They're all a seperate unit and have to take a different test. And if you have something like Maru Skara, the Outflank might have some deploy on different sides of the battlefield, meaning that they can't deploy within 6" (although what exactly "arriving from reserve as normal" means when you gain "outflank" is questionable at best). There's no rules for what happens if you're unable to meet requisites that happen post selection/reliant on the rules.

 

The rules from Book 1 are barely functional, especially when copied over into the more modern ruleset. A bit of jiggery pokery isneeded to make them work in the most RACSD function. RAW, the two rules don't even clash.

 

"A LegionDreadnought Talon numbering a single Dreadnought may select a Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport"

"Legion Dreadnoughts may take Legion Drop Pods as Dedicated Transports (on a 1:1 ratio).

 

"A Contemptor Dreadnought Talon numbering a single Dreadnought may select a Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport"

"Contemptor Dreadnoughts may take Dreadclaw Drop Pods as Dedicated Transports (on a 1:1 ratio).

 

If you wanted to be dickish about the rules, you could "legally" enforce that if it was in a DDP, then sure, it's limited to 1 per talon, but if in another, it's 1:1, which if you pick up the Talon, which has a unit size of 1-3, then you may have 1:1 ratio of DP or Dreadclaws dependent on options. 

 

Your customer service guy was making up rules.

[Lysere]

If they aren't a unit, and they don't have a rule that says they must deploy together then according to the rite of war they can all get pods. The rite of war simply adds transportation rules to your army that you didn't have.

 

Havent touched 30k rules in some time so I forgot they don't have multi dreadnought units.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Dreadnought Talon rule basically states that they must deploy within 6" of one another, or come on from reserve from one another, but are otherwise treated as being a unit in their own right.

 

This causes issues.

 

Firstly, is that 6" of each other in the Talon (i.e A in 6" of B and C, while B is in 6" of A and C, therefore C is in 6" of A and B), or 6" of another model in the talon (A is in 6" of B or C, B in 6" of A or C, and C is in 6" of A or B). This can be quite a big thing.

 

Also, because Reserves is clearly a legal tactic, but at the same time, putting them into reserve relegates them to coming on via a random roll. If only part of the unit makes the roll, how does the rest of the talon behave? They're clearly individual units, but they cannot possibly meet the clause requiring them to come on from within 6" of each other (see above for other issues). If A and B pass the reserve roll, but C fails (statistically likely), then that means that at least one, if not all of the above do not meet any clause allowing the unit to be deployed, and as such, what happens. No-one knows. Rules Black hole.

 

Then you have alternative deployments, like Outflank on an Emperor's Children Maru Skara which can mess things up even without going to the extremes of Orbital Assault - as you autopass (again, another rules mess up, it's not EXPRESSLY clear that they automatically arrive, although it is inferred), that may mess up the 6" deployment rule.

 

You have two "absolutes" butting heads while both being completely legal.

[Terminus]

Not only that, technically none of them can ever come out of reserves, because the first dude to step out cannot be within 6" of another model in the Talon because none of them are deployed yet.  By the same logic, if you deploy one dreadnought and leave the other in reserve, and the deployed one gets blown up, the reserve cannot come out within 6" of the first, and therefore cannot come in at all.

 

Genius.

[Slips]

Isnt the Talon rule along the lines of "They Deploy as if they were a single unit but then act independently from then-on." or something? Meaning you'd only really have to roll once for their reserves in that case.

[Terminus]

It would certainly resolve a lot of issues if you just rolled once for Reserves for the whole unit. Then they could all walk on, or drop together (I guess breaking the drop-pod assault rule much like the Skyhammer formation does?). However, none of that is stated in the rules. This is what we get.

 

 

 

When first deployed on the battlefield (either at the start of the game or when arriving via Reserves later on), the Dreadnoughts must be placed within 6" of each other, but afterwards operate independently and are not treated as a vehicle squadron.

 

So yeah, if you want to take a Talon and reserve them, make sure to leave one on the table and make sure he doesn't die. Genius.

[Slips]

I dunno.

 

I read that as when they're being Deployed or arriving from Reserves that they essentially count as a Single Unit/Squadron and must be placed within 6" of each other and once they have been Deployed / Arrived from reserves then Operate Independently.

 

Because it only says they're Independent  after they deploy. To me it means that beforehand they aren't and thus come in from reserves on a single roll.

[Terminus]

That's how people play it because logic.

 

Unfortunately the rules are in Swahili.

[Slips]

ಠ_ಠ

 

Sometimes, this is all I can muster.

[Kastor Krieg]

This is how I have read it as well. Deploy together as one unit with initial 6" coherency, then move and act independently. Which would force them to Reserve / pod on a single roll together and indicate pod points within 6" of another pod of the batch.